Chip, how can I say this? :ermm:
Its politics, the discussion is about politics. Ramfis decision was a political decision.
What is politics?
In simple terms, the struggle for power.
End of story.
-NALs :surprised
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Hermanas Mirabal
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Its politics, the discussion is about politics. Ramfis decision was a political decision.
What is politics?
In simple terms, the struggle for power.
End of story.
-NALs :surprised
Desiring women and fast cars is pretty standard, even harmless stuff compared to wanting power. The thing with Ramfis is that he had access to women and fast cars and the carte blanche to get away with anything and everything thanks to his father's power. As Chip says, it's probably just as well he didn't have ambition to fill his old man's shoes.
Either way it didn't really matter.
Balaguer did what Ramfis was going to be forced to do, had he decided to stay in power.
Why?
Let's just say that Washington had more say in what post-Trujillo Dominican politics was going to be about.
-NALs
This only reinforces my previous statement. There is an apparent major disconnect here apparently. You see politics as a way of obtaining power, while many in the West view it as a way to serve the community. Please save the examples of abuse in the West, my point is not every civil servant in the West is trying to rob money or get as much power as possible.
What is incredulous is that you somehow think I am naive. People like you are why LA politics are still in the stoneage - a$$backwards que no sirve para nada. The worse point is the numnut politicians are proud of it and probably think Westerners secretly admire them - Earth to numnuts, we see you as what you are self seeking, greedy criminals who deserve to be locked up.
This is also the reason why leftest politicians like Chavez make so much headway, because the political "elite", excuse me, "criminals" have abused their countries for song long and sin verguenza too. The only problem with Chavez and the like is they haven't fallen far from the tree.
There is a disconnect. You have no idea how politics function.
If you did, you would be able to see beyond the fray and see things for what they are.
Politics is about power, always has and always will.
Why do you think politicians control and use various symbols, speak of unattainable ideals, and in more ways than one try to get people to make emotional decisions rather than rational ones when it comes to elections?
Its about power, everything else is the icing that prevents people from seeing the cake!
The same is true in the DR.Chip said:
The only difference is that most politicians everywhere are in search of more power, but some gain it through coercion while others gain it through other means, but desire for power is the basic component of politics regardless of the country.
Look, if you want to change the way the world functions, fine. Just spend your time debating this with political scientists and people who are experts (have a degree in PS). Don't be surprised if they echo what I have stated here.
The rest of your response is fluff.
-NALs
To try to equate the desire for power of a Ramfis or his dad to lets say a Kennedy or even a Nixon is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. The function of power in a dictatorship versus power in a functioning democracy are so far apart as day and night.
Nals
If you forget I am a civil engineer and have worked with enough politicians in my country to understand how things work. The majority of them get into politics because they have a desire to serve the public, because unlike in many Latin American countries they make less than their professional counterparts.
I have met many latinoamericans who have opinions like yours and all I can say is you will never understand. I think this offers real insight into part of the root of the problems of latinoamerica countries. All I can hope is that your children will understand.
If you forget I am a civil engineer and have worked with enough politicians in my country to understand how things work. The majority of them get into politics because they have a desire to serve the public, because unlike in many Latin American countries they make less than their professional counterparts.
I have met many latinoamericans who have opinions like yours and all I can say is you will never understand. I think this offers real insight into part of the root of the problems of latinoamerica countries. All I can hope is that your children will understand.
But I got my post-secondary education in the U.S., so please enlighten me beyond what Western intellectuals have indoctrinated me with. :tired:
-NALs
You said this......
.....and Chip said this.
then you came back with this....
Now it does not take a doctorate or a Ph.D to see that you intimated that the power desired by a tyrant is pretty much the same desire as someone working withing the rules of a democracy or am I way off base.....I don't think so.
You are way off.
I was referring to one simple fact of most, perhaps all, politicians and that is that they desire power above all else.
As for what kind of power, well, that is another matter that I never discussed here. Albeit, the difference between a dictator and a democratic politician is that one seeks absolute power while the other seeks as much power as the system allows, but that's another topic.
-NALs
See Nals, you just don't get it. Maybe you never will. There are many Americans, etc. that were raised with the sacrifices our people made during WWII and that take to heart what JFK said:
"Ask not what you country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"
This is not to say that there aren't corrupt politicians in the US and other Western countries, but for every bad apple, there are 10 good ones. It is apparent what is the mentality of LA politicians - what can I say, you guys have so very far to go, and yet can't even recognize the problem.
As long as this mentiality never changes, the LA community will never lack presidents like Chavez, Correa, Castro and Cuba. I truly understand and emphasize with the LA people for this very reason. The fact is the intellectual elite are raised with this archaic notion from birth (among others) and it is for this very reason that corrupt governement replaces corrupt government after gov't after...
Answer the following questions:
What does a politician has that other people in any society doesn't have? With what does any number of politicians execute their plans? What does every politician seeks during election year?
Yes, its an office, its a title, its a thing called...
Hint: its the one thing that causes other people to follow instructions. Don't confuse it with the various forms that it appears, its all part of that thing that starts with the letter P and ends in R.
Take that "thing" away from every single politician and what do you have? Can a politician (or any leader) execute their plans without that "thing"?
Come on Chip! Its obvious!
Here are a few relevant definition of this "thing" that starts with the letter P:
4. the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy
7. delegated authority; authority granted to a person or persons in a particular office or capacity
9. a person or thing that possesses or exercises authority or influence.
dictionary.com
Does all of this rings a bell? :surprised:ermm:
Do you know ONE politician without this "thing"?
-NALs
What does any professional person with responsibilty have? An engineer like myself in a big company has all of this, big deal - good grief!!!!!.
Forget it Nals, you are just like my good friend from Venezzuala among otheres I have met here in the DT, you can't understand becasue you were raised in a completely different culture that idolizes the posession of power. You can never really understand, or believe for that matter that people do things for the love of their country and for the love of right.
I think leaving this topic (or off topic - topic) alone will be the best thing. So far, you are the only American that I know that refuses to accept that powerless people are at the mercy of the powerful and unless a person has power or access to someone who does, their vision and belief of how things should be will not have a chance of coming true.
Love of country has nothing to do with the discussion, because even people who love their country dearly and want to "give back" via politics, need to get elected into office where they gain the power to "give back".
There is no "giving back" without gaining power/elected into office.
But, whatever.
-NALs
Love of country has nothing to do with the discussion, because even people who love their country dearly and want to "give back" via politics, need to get elected into office where they gain the power to "give back".
There is no "giving back" without gaining power/elected into office.
But, whatever.
-NALs
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You need to get around more apparently. I don't know the type of people you hang with, but you are obviously missing out on a lot. Like I said before, I don't think you will cahnge your main because it is apparent you are that type of person. But then gain, don't think I respect your opinion on this matter nor do I give it one ounce of credence. I'm not the only one either. People like you in politics are what make it negative, something the world can do a whole lot less with. Take this thought and ponder - it isn't all about the power, please.
I read that one or two vehicles passed by when the Mirabal's were taken out of their vehicle by Trujillo's henchmen on their way to be brutally murdered. Wonder what went through those drivers minds when the truth of their savage murder came out.
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Golo:
You have made a very strong unfair and UNPATRIOTIC statement gainst the true history and struggle of OUR country ( yours and mine) for the social and political injustice that occured in the Dominican Republic. You have spoken about your country the way that dictator Trujillo dealt and spoke of our country.
Please understand a very important thing: I AM NOT A LEFTIST!
In our American Constitution one of the founders, Edmund Burke said; " All it takes for evil to triumph is for good man to stand idly and do nothing "
The Mirabal sisters and their husbands stood for the country when very few men or women had or didn't have the courage to defend the country against a fascist dictator,a murderer, a thieve, a lier, a rapist, who was of course, put into power by an officer of the US army in 1916. Trujillo and the Vatican made a concordat, an agreement, to give support to the church in exchange the Catholic church was not to interfere in Trujillo regime. Trujillo of course, made two major mistakes after that prompted his demise: He understimated the struggle of the Miarabal sisters ( he only lasted a short time after that) and he quickly forgot the concordat with the Vatican. You mentioned " post-Trujillo heros and leftist politicians who robed our country of its riches" These corrupt politicians for the most part were RIGHT WING FASCISTS(the very opposite of leftists) Right-Wing fascists just like Hitler, Salazar in Portugal ;Francisco Franco in Spain; Benito Mussollini in Italy.
" Overrated padres de la patria, especially Duarte" ? I suppose you are cursing Duarte every year when we are celebrating the Dominican Independence day on February 27th.? And yes, you are right, "he was shone by his own Trinitarios" BECAUSE THERE WERE TRAITORS IN THAT GROUP, whom he knew had infiltrated the Trinitaria to DIVIDE IT STEATHLY (DIVIDE TO CONQUER)and UNDERMINE the efforts of our future freedom. Who were they: Tomas Bobadilla, Arzobispo Porte Infante, and none other that the demon on earth by the name of Pedro Santana, Ramon Santana, Buenaventura Baez. General Luperon was the hero who fought against the Spanish Crown, killed many of them in battle, and emerged as a national war hero of Restauration fo the second independence of the country in 1863. " The US put some order in our Custom house and let Trujillo organize something of a state". The US disarmed the entire population agaisnt the independent principle of our country and put Trujillo in charge of the "new army" to squash any one who was patriotically opposed to the US occupation.The US invasion contributed to the Status Quo in the Dominican Republic and in spite of all this Dominicans still respect and admire American culture and American tourists into our country.
One final point, you said: " This was not a state.It never was ...until Trujillo." ARE YOU A TRUJILLISTA ? Are you related to the Trujillo family in way ,shape or form?? As I said before, I AM NOT A LEFTIST PER SE. One thing I know I am not for sure is being a fascist like Hitler and his Nazism, or like salazar, Franco, and Mussollini and their fascists, maquiavellan political philosophies.
The Mirabals sisters were heroines who raised the national consciousness for a free country from a tyranny. The Tavarez Justos and Caamano stood for a true democracy. You are right , NOT YOUR KIND OF DEMOCRACY!
You have made a very strong unfair and UNPATRIOTIC statement gainst the true history and struggle of OUR country ( yours and mine) for the social and political injustice that occured in the Dominican Republic. You have spoken about your country the way that dictator Trujillo dealt and spoke of our country.
Please understand a very important thing: I AM NOT A LEFTIST!
In our American Constitution one of the founders, Edmund Burke said; " All it takes for evil to triumph is for good man to stand idly and do nothing "
The Mirabal sisters and their husbands stood for the country when very few men or women had or didn't have the courage to defend the country against a fascist dictator,a murderer, a thieve, a lier, a rapist, who was of course, put into power by an officer of the US army in 1916. Trujillo and the Vatican made a concordat, an agreement, to give support to the church in exchange the Catholic church was not to interfere in Trujillo regime. Trujillo of course, made two major mistakes after that prompted his demise: He understimated the struggle of the Miarabal sisters ( he only lasted a short time after that) and he quickly forgot the concordat with the Vatican. You mentioned " post-Trujillo heros and leftist politicians who robed our country of its riches" These corrupt politicians for the most part were RIGHT WING FASCISTS(the very opposite of leftists) Right-Wing fascists just like Hitler, Salazar in Portugal ;Francisco Franco in Spain; Benito Mussollini in Italy.
" Overrated padres de la patria, especially Duarte" ? I suppose you are cursing Duarte every year when we are celebrating the Dominican Independence day on February 27th.? And yes, you are right, "he was shone by his own Trinitarios" BECAUSE THERE WERE TRAITORS IN THAT GROUP, whom he knew had infiltrated the Trinitaria to DIVIDE IT STEATHLY (DIVIDE TO CONQUER)and UNDERMINE the efforts of our future freedom. Who were they: Tomas Bobadilla, Arzobispo Porte Infante, and none other that the demon on earth by the name of Pedro Santana, Ramon Santana, Buenaventura Baez. General Luperon was the hero who fought against the Spanish Crown, killed many of them in battle, and emerged as a national war hero of Restauration fo the second independence of the country in 1863. " The US put some order in our Custom house and let Trujillo organize something of a state". The US disarmed the entire population agaisnt the independent principle of our country and put Trujillo in charge of the "new army" to squash any one who was patriotically opposed to the US occupation.The US invasion contributed to the Status Quo in the Dominican Republic and in spite of all this Dominicans still respect and admire American culture and American tourists into our country.
One final point, you said: " This was not a state.It never was ...until Trujillo." ARE YOU A TRUJILLISTA ? Are you related to the Trujillo family in way ,shape or form?? As I said before, I AM NOT A LEFTIST PER SE. One thing I know I am not for sure is being a fascist like Hitler and his Nazism, or like salazar, Franco, and Mussollini and their fascists, maquiavellan political philosophies.
The Mirabals sisters were heroines who raised the national consciousness for a free country from a tyranny. The Tavarez Justos and Caamano stood for a true democracy. You are right , NOT YOUR KIND OF DEMOCRACY!
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