High Electricity Bills!!!

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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"This" from a guy who know nothing about "Electricity"!

If you take 220 volts,run it through a step down transformer,and a voltage regulator,there goes your "Advantage"! You will generate "Heat",and therefore use energy,and get NO bang for that buck!
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Texas Bill

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Feb 11, 2003
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MrMike;

I have just recently had a setp-down transformer installed to reduce the 220V to 110V and will monitor my electrical usage closely.
In addition I have purchased a 10KW generator, install a battery array(using Trojan 105's) for standby at night, and make use of the 4 Solar Panels removed from my boat(long before it burned and sunk) to keep the batteries charged.
Hopefully, I'll be able to f---- EDNORTE and become self sufficient electrically, or at least reduce the problem significantly.
Thank you all fot the education in Electricity. It wasn't one of my best subjects in school.
Michael, I'll email you.

Texas Bill
 

krysinfo

New member
Sep 2, 2004
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High Electricity Bills!

Hi There! I am from India & face exactly the same problems as you guys. Three cheers for universal brotherhood!

I have enjoyed reading through the entire stuff, especially the excellent tutorials. I wish you guys were my teachers in school!

Keeping theory apart, what is the best way to reduce the billing (since we cannot totally stop paying), assuming we are actually using as much as is being billed & also assuming that we cannot conserve (you know, switch off what is not in use, or use a window instead of an AC). I have seen on a BBC show a device that actually reverses the meter when plugged in (or attached) somewhere. So if your reading is xxx units for a particular month, you can turn it back to read xxx-50 or xxx-100 etc.

Is there any other way to actually reduce the meter reading without getting caught?
 

KateP

Silver
May 28, 2004
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krysinfo said:
I have seen on a BBC show a device that actually reverses the meter when plugged in (or attached) somewhere. So if your reading is xxx units for a particular month, you can turn it back to read xxx-50 or xxx-100 etc.

Is there any other way to actually reduce the meter reading without getting caught?

Only problem is if you get caught, you end up paying a lot more than what you saved... might not be worth it in the end... ;)
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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I pay more when there is LESS!

Actually,in the DR,"Stealing" IS cost effective!!!
Since I "Borrow" 90 % of my electricity,when there is none to "Borrow",I must run my "Planta" and burn lots of "Gasoil"! About 8,000 pesos a month in July and August!Things are about back to "normal" now,so I can "borrow" again! Paying between 800 and 1,500 a month as opposed to 10,000 plus if I paid full time!
I got caught about 2 years ago,only because they put in new electric meters!I was fined 40,000 pesos,negotiated down to 18,000.That was just about when the rates began to skyrocket!After 6 months,my bills reached nearly $300 US a month! I called my electrician and we went 90% "Covert" again!
I also have an apartment in "La Fe" section of Santo Domingo,where I have never paid in over 5 years!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC :bandit: :bandit:
 

BushBaby

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Jan 1, 2002
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Criss Colon said:
Actually,in the DR,"Stealing" IS cost effective!!!
Since I "Borrow" 90 % of my electricity,when there is none to "Borrow",I must run my "Planta" and burn lots of "Gasoil"! About 8,000 pesos a month in July and August!Things are about back to "normal" now,so I can "borrow" again! Paying between 800 and 1,500 a month as opposed to 10,000 plus if I paid full time!
I got caught about 2 years ago,only because they put in new electric meters!I was fined 40,000 pesos,negotiated down to 18,000.That was just about when the rates began to skyrocket!After 6 months,my bills reached nearly $300 US a month! I called my electrician and we went 90% "Covert" again!
I also have an apartment in "La Fe" section of Santo Domingo,where I have never paid in over 5 years!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC :bandit: :bandit:

So Criss, ............. YOU are one of those that cause me to have a much higher electricity bill??? Nice going. Your secret IS safe with me, but I am NOT impressed! I will remain legit on the inflated electricity rates until I can find an alternative power supply that is strictly legit & doesn't cause others to pay for my 'Stealing'!!! - Grahame.
 

Texas Bill

Silver
Feb 11, 2003
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Yes, AND we're back---

to the SAME "Low Voltage" scenario that we had before the election!!

We may have longer times of electrical power, but have you heard the laboring of the startup phase of your friges and freezers lately??? And the dimness of the incadescent bulbs? And the Fluroescents not coming on because of low voltage??

We're still being defrauded by the electric company! They're still charging us for 110 volts, and more because the voltage isn't high enough!

Who can we sue???
Would the government entertain or allow a law suit for fraud??
Would the government join in on a 'class action' suit??

Unanswerable questions. And yet we're still being victimized!
So, who is stealing from whom???

Texas Bill
 

gjsuk

Member
Apr 7, 2003
172
4
18
Stealing electricity

Criss Colon said:
Actually,in the DR,"Stealing" IS cost effective!!!
Since I "Borrow" 90 % of my electricity,when there is none to "Borrow",I must run my "Planta" and burn lots of "Gasoil"! About 8,000 pesos a month in July and August!Things are about back to "normal" now,so I can "borrow" again! Paying between 800 and 1,500 a month as opposed to 10,000 plus if I paid full time!
I got caught about 2 years ago,only because they put in new electric meters!I was fined 40,000 pesos,negotiated down to 18,000.That was just about when the rates began to skyrocket!After 6 months,my bills reached nearly $300 US a month! I called my electrician and we went 90% "Covert" again!
I also have an apartment in "La Fe" section of Santo Domingo,where I have never paid in over 5 years!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC :bandit: :bandit:

and you're proud of that?????????????????????????????????????
 

Criss Colon

Platinum
Jan 2, 2002
21,843
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You Bet Your "Edesur" Electric Bill I AM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

When more than 50 % of the electricity produced,is NEVER paid for,you think I am going to be one of the few who actually pay? The worst offenders are the Government,Military,and those commercial entities with "Sweatheart deals! I pay 1,000 or 1,500 a month! Thats my share!When EVERYONE hooked to the national power grid pays,I will too.Until then,anyone who pays is just being suckered by the Dominican Government!You don't live in the DR,you SURVIVE!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 

killroy

New member
Jul 5, 2005
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Hey guys,

I'm new here .First of all I wanted to say that I read some very interesting stuff on this site.
And yes, we all have a problem with the electricity.
I work for a hotel in cabarete and right now we are running 100% on generator.
Because the cost is so high we need to find a alternative for our problem.
I did some research and right now, like I allready read in the forum it is possible to convert your diesel generator into bi-fuel.
Once a conversion kit is installed the generator will run on diesel and gas.
The companies say that the generator will run on 30% diesel and 70% gas.
Right now the cheapest way would be lng(liquid natural gas).
I also read that in october there would be LNG available in the DR.
A dual fuel generator will have less power but it runs better because of the cleaner fuel source.
You get more hours,less maintenance, and overall it seems not a bad idea.
The only thing I need to find out is, what the cost would be for natural gas.

What I don't understand is why they don't do any research on bio-diesel.
I mean all the waste oil,animal fat,coconut oil, is good enough to make bio-diesel.
The only thing that you would have to do is warm up the bio-diesel because it is not as fluid as normal diesel,and start up and shut down with normal diesel so your engine doesn't clock up.
This could be a nice alternative for a lot of people who have a business and pay a fortune to get some good electricity.
 

Dolores1

DR1
May 3, 2000
8,215
37
48
www.
Read through the Environment Forum. Posters there have looked into this and tell some of what is being done here. Bio diesel is not yet a reality, but it may soon be.
 

Escott

Gold
Jan 14, 2002
7,715
6
0
www.escottinsosua.blogspot.com
killroy said:
Hey guys,

I'm new here .First of all I wanted to say that I read some very interesting stuff on this site.
And yes, we all have a problem with the electricity.
I work for a hotel in cabarete and right now we are running 100% on generator.
Because the cost is so high we need to find a alternative for our problem.
I did some research and right now, like I allready read in the forum it is possible to convert your diesel generator into bi-fuel.
Once a conversion kit is installed the generator will run on diesel and gas.
The companies say that the generator will run on 30% diesel and 70% gas.
Right now the cheapest way would be lng(liquid natural gas).
I also read that in october there would be LNG available in the DR.
A dual fuel generator will have less power but it runs better because of the cleaner fuel source.
You get more hours,less maintenance, and overall it seems not a bad idea.
The only thing I need to find out is, what the cost would be for natural gas.

What I don't understand is why they don't do any research on bio-diesel.
I mean all the waste oil,animal fat,coconut oil, is good enough to make bio-diesel.
The only thing that you would have to do is warm up the bio-diesel because it is not as fluid as normal diesel,and start up and shut down with normal diesel so your engine doesn't clock up.
This could be a nice alternative for a lot of people who have a business and pay a fortune to get some good electricity.
Running off of a generator 100% of the time is crazy. Why not hook up to the grid and save some money?
 

jjbaer

New member
Jul 20, 2006
6
0
0
energy used when voltage drops

I listened to all the threads so I thought I'd put my 2 cents in here concerning power consumption and decreased voltages, etc.

Let's ignore power meter inaccuracies at reduced or increased voltages and look at motors and then resistive elements such as water heaters:

For a motor: if you want to do "X" amount of work, I like to invoke what's called the "nth law of thermodynamics" that "there are no free lunches". In the case of a motor, if you want to do "X" amount of work it takes you the same amount of energy in kilowatt hours regardless of how the voltage or current may change. Again, assume here for the sake of discussion that the motor is not damaged at the lower voltage and we assume it still works as efficiently.

Side note: They call the meter on the side of your house a "power meter" but it's really an "energy meter". "Power" is measured in watts or Kilowatts but the meter on your house is an "energy meter" which measures "kilowatt hours consumed" which is a measure of "energy", NOT "power".

Back to the motor: If, for example, you would normally consume 120 Volts and 8 amps for 2 hours for a task, this means you used 960 Watts of power (120 Volts x 8 amps = 960 watts) but you used 1920 watt-hours of energy (120 Volts x 8 amps x 2 hours = 1920 watt-hours = 1.92 Kilowatt hours) and Kilowatt hours is what you get billed on.

Now, let's say the voltage now drops to 80 volts. You must still consume this same 1920 watt-hours of energy to do the same task and you can do this by drawing more amps for a shorter time or less amps for a longer time but in the end, to do the same task, you will consume the same amount of kilowatt hours of energy (Volts x Amps x hours) for this same task. And, since power companies bill us by the ENERGY we consume (kilowatt hours used), the cost to the consumer is the same regardless of fluctuations in voltage.

Note: we can argue if a motor or device will properly operate at these low/high voltage changes and what its efficiency is at these voltages and meter inaccuracies at voltages other than 120 volts, but, ignoring these, the main point here is that it takes a certain amount of energy in kilowatt-hours to do a given task and your bill will be the same to do the same task regardless of small fluctuations in voltage!!!

For a resistive heater element: Let's go back to the water heater scenario where the 1500W element running at 120 volts is then subjected to 80 Volts. At 120 Volts, we can calculate the resistance which is a FIXED value, regardless of applied voltage.

Watts = (V) x (I)

since I = V/R we can plug this into the above and arrive at this:

Watts = [(V) x (V)] / R

1500 = [ (120) x (120)] / R

Resistance = 9.6 Ohms for this element.

NOTE: for this element, the resistance is the SAME REGARDLESS OF THE VOLTAGE WE APPLY TO IT!!!! Apply 2000 volts across it and the resistance is still 9.6 Ohms. Apply 80 volts across it and the resistance is still 9.6 Ohms!

Now, using this fixed resistance of 9.6 Ohms, let's calculate the new watts (power) consumed when the voltage drops to 80 Volts:

Watts = [(V) x (V)] / R

Watts = [ (80) x (80)] / 9.6

Watts = 667 watts power consumed

Let's assume the heater is 40 gallons (about 332 lb of water) and the inlet water temp is 60F and we want to raise it to 186F. Thermodynamics tells us that (neglecting heat loss from the water heater jacket) that it takes 8.2 hours to raise 332 lb of water by 126 degrees F (186F - 60F inlet temp = 126F temperature rise). Here's the calculations (in the calculation, a BTU is a British Thermal Unit and one BTU raises 1 lb of water 1 deg F at 60 deg...it changes slightly when the temperature is different from 60F but we ignore it here...also, the 1500watt heater is equal to 1.5 Kilowatt:

3412 BTU/(Kilowatt hour) x 1.5 Kilowatt x (Time in hrs) = 332 lb water x 1 BTU/(lb water x deg F) x (186F - 60 F)

solve for Time and we get 8.17 hrs

Note: you might say, "well...it doesn't take a normal water heater 8 hrs to heat water"...and you're right but the average water heater has a heater element that is 4 times as powerful as this 1500 watt heater AND the average water heater only raises water to 120 F, NOT 186F. In the above example, raising water to 120F with this 1500 watt heater would only take 3.9hours and the typical water heater with a 6000 watt heater element would only require 58 minutes to heat this 60F water to 120F.

Back to the example:


Now, calculate the time required to raise the water to 186F using the reduced voltage (80 volts) where the watt consumption is 667 watts and you'll get 18.3 hrs, which, by the way is inversely proportional to the SQUARE of the drop in voltage (i.e., drop voltage by one-half and power consumed drops by a factor of four, etc.). BUT again (and we'll ignore heat loss here from the water heater jacket) you're billed by kilowatt hours and it takes the same amount of energy in Kilowatt hours to raise water temp by 1 deg F regardless of what the voltage is!! So, even if voltage fluctuates and wattage drops, you consume the same energy to heat your water but it just takes you a longer time to do so but THE COST IS THE SAME!!!

Bottom line in both examples: ignoring meter inaccuracies due to voltage fluctuations and heat loss, and whether or not a device will work without being destroyed at lower/higher voltages, it takes the SAME amount of energy (and therefore it will cost the same) to do the SAME task.....only difference is it may take longer to do it at reduced voltages.

Caveat: you could reduce voltages so low such that power consumed is so low that a task would never get done and then energy costs would rise dramatically. Example: put 10 watts into a 1,000 watt toaster and you'd never generate sufficient infrared energy to brown your toast and the device would run forever and consume infinite energy and your toast would never get done. Same if you tried to run a 1500 watt iron on say, 50 watts, etc.

BUT, don't lose sight of the big picture: small drops/rises in voltage mean you still will consume the same amount of energy to do the same task and your energy bill will be the SAME!


hope this helps
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
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Jjbaer,

I wish to welcome you to DR1. Your explanation was very drawn out and as I'm not an electrician I will hold comment on your attempt to help clear up any misunderstandings.

I do wish to inform you that you picked a thread over a year old so it must be covered by a bit of dust or was till you brought it out and brushed it off.

Rick

Edited to add; As a matter of fact this thread was started over 3 years ago.
 

drbill

New member
Dec 3, 2005
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Please, Rick

If you will just re-read paragraphs #4, 17, 30, 99, 164 an 235, the message will reveal itself quite clearly.:cheeky:
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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Thank you Drbill it is people like you that keeps idiots like me on our toes. After rereading the aforementioned paragraphs I was finally able to ascertain that which was trying to be conveyed and therefore stand corrected.

Regardless, Jjbaer welcome to DR1.

Rick
 

jjbaer

New member
Jul 20, 2006
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Rick, drbill,

I was wandering through this and saw the 2-3 yr old thread and read all of them......that's why I responded yesterday to a 3-yr old thread.... because there was so much disagreement as to terminology (power, energy, etc). What I wanted to point out is that it takes the same amount of energy to do a task regardless of voltage or current used and, since we're billed in "energy" (kilowatt hours), not "power" (kilowatts), our electric bills will be the same to do the same task. Yes, voltage fluctuations can affect meter readings and during brownouts (where voltages are lowered) equipment can be damaged but, neglecting these, slight drops/rises in voltages do not affect your energy consumption and therefore your electric bill to do a given task will be the same with or without slight voltage drops/rises.

thanks

Jim
 

Rick Snyder

Silver
Nov 19, 2003
2,321
2
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Jim,

As mentioned previously I'm no electrician and therefore have to yield to people such as yourself, TigerPilot, Mondongo and Notlurking in your thesis on electricity.

The problem as I see it and which I feel hasn't been answered yet is how bills for electricity have increased so drastically from prior times as mentioned in this thread. The thought that the price for electricity has increased dramatically would play an important part in the equation but I wonder if the meters that are used can and are built in such a way as to show a reading the is elevated from that which is actually used.

It has been over two years since the electric company removed all the meters from my barrio but when I did have a meter I would check it daily and record the kwh used for that day. I always used between 6 and 9 kwh per day and always had a monthly bill for, on average, 210 kwh used. Back 6 years ago my bill would be around RD$250 a month and as the price per kwh went up so too did my bill. This is taking into account that the power supplied to my barrio did and does fluctuate between 58 and 108 volts on a continual basis. As I have no meter I have no way to determine what my present price for power used is in reality.

Rick
 

MrMike

Silver
Mar 2, 2003
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And what about those of us who spend extended periods using battery backup? I am told that the charging mechanisms on inverters are significantly less efficient when the supplied voltage is less than what the chargers were designed to use. Wouldn't this increase amount of "energy" used to charge the battery bank?