How 'bout a trade?

frank alvarez

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I enjoy living in my native country after spending most of my life living abroad. The warm weather all year round, the beaches, mountains, countryside and tropical atmosphere, the generally bright and happy disposition of most Dominicans in spite of many hardships and so on.

But when I go out on my daily walk along El Malecon and see all the trash
left over, from the disorganized entrepeneurs with their unhealthy and un-clean food businesses, from the night before I get disgusted; and when I have to go down onto the pavement when some small entrepeneur has taken over the sidewalk for a repair shop, fruit stand, etc. I get upset. Right around Maximo Gomez and Independencia the 'padres de familia' (heads of family--those that justify breaking the law, trashing things or just misbehaving generally to the fact they have to provide for their families regardless of what they do to society in general) driving their barely-running vehicles with their dangerous natural gas connections (virtual rolling bombs), blocking lanes, intersections and urinating right on the street, I wonder where the authorities are. These are the infamous 'transportation syndicates' which have ripped off every government and the people since the end of the Trujillo dictatorship back in 1961.

What authorities? Everyone from the president on down are too busy on their own personal agendas to worry or care about citizens' general welfare. They have never been able to provide basic services such as energy, water and trash pick-up service. Much less health and education. The current president is on his seminar-summit-meetings schedule and is extremely detached from the daily needs of those that elected him. His advisors are too busy pushing pet projects to enrich themselves and/or those near them. The opposition of the moment is trying to do whatever they can, regardless of the harm to the country's needs, to remove those in power now so they can do the same or worse. Case in point, the 2000-2004 horrific PRD government we just barely survived.

I have an idea. Could we send about 5 million Dominicans to the European Union in exchange for about 500,000 German and Dutch citizens? How about we send all 100% of the PRD, 90% of the PRSC (virtually the same interest in getting in to steal the peoples' resources) and 75% of the PLD (I would leave all of the economic team who have done an excellent job of recovering the economy, and the most faithful followers of Juan Bosch; the most honest Dominican leader of modern times). I would hope to send all the members of transportation syndicates including 'motoconchos', all motorcycle and scooter riders, everyone that wants to get into the drug and prostitution trade. That should just add up to about 5 million perverse souls.

We don't want any Spaniards or French who got us into this mess way back when. We also don't want any Americans since they have helped make the original French/Spanish mess even worse, here and in most of Latin America.

I'm even willing to take 300,000 low-class Europeans since with about 200,000 good German/Dutch citizens and about 5 million good Dominicans left behind, we could get a great society started. Boy, what a possibility that would be. However, would the Europeans make the trade?

OK, I know, it's a fantasy but....I'm a Pisces.
 
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Texas Bill

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frank alvarez said:
I enjoy living in my native country after spending most of my life living abroad. The warm weather all year round, the beaches, mountains, countryside and tropical atmosphere, the generally bright and happy disposition of most Dominicans in spite of many hardships and so on.

But when I go out on my daily walk along El Malecon and see all the trash
left over, from the disorganized entrepeneurs with their unhealthy and un-clean food businesses, from the night before I get disgusted; and when I have to go down onto the pavement when some small entrepeneur has taken over the sidewalk for a repair shop, fruit stand, etc. I get upset. Right around Maximo Gomez and Independencia the 'padres de familia' (heads of family--those that justify breaking the law, trashing things or just misbehaving generally to the fact they have to provide for their families regardless of what they do to society in general) driving their barely-running vehicles with their dangerous natural gas connections (virtual rolling bombs), blocking lanes, intersections and urinating right on the street, I wonder where the authorities are. These are the infamous 'transportation syndicates' which have ripped off every government and the people since the end of the Trujillo dictatorship back in 1961.

What authorities? Everyone from the president on down are too busy on their own personal agendas to worry or care about citizens' general welfare. They have never been able to provide basic services such as energy, water and trash pick-up service. Much less health and education. The current president is on his seminar-summit-meetings schedule and is extremely detached from the daily needs of those that elected him. His advisors are too busy pushing pet projects to enrich themselves and/or those near them. The opposition of the moment is trying to do whatever they can, regardless of the harm to the country's needs, to remove those in power now so they can do the same or worse. Case in point, the 2000-2004 horrific PRD government we just barely survived.

I have an idea. Could we send about 5 million Dominicans to the European Union in exchange for about 500,000 German and Dutch citizens? How about we send all 100% of the PRD, 90% of the PRSC (virtually the same interest in getting in to steal the peoples' resources) and 75% of the PLD (I would leave all of the economic team who have done an excellent job of recovering the economy, and the most faithful followers of Juan Bosch; the most honest Dominican leader of modern times). I would hope to send all the members of transportation syndicates including 'motoconchos', all motorcycle and scooter riders, everyone that wants to get into the drug and prostitution trade. That should just add up to about 5 million perverse souls.

We don't want any Spaniards or French who got us into this mess way back when. We also don't want any Americans since they have helped make the original French/Spanish mess even worse, here and in most of Latin America.

I'm even willing to take 300,000 low-class Europeans since with about 200,000 good German/Dutch citizens and about 5 million good Dominicans left behind, we could get a great society started. Boy, what a possibility that would be. However, would the Europeans make the trade?

OK, I know, it's a fantasy but....I'm a Pisces.

Frank---

I would support your sumation of the Dominican character and propenscity toward total disregard for public sanitation, respect for the sensabilities of others (except within one's own household) and the other negative aspects of Dominican Society.
I really don't think that such a mass dispora would suffice, however.
My solution would be to take the children before tahe age of 5 years ad place thim under the direct supervision of dedicated psychologists, who would in turn, educate them in the proper social conduct of responsible citizenship. In addition, I would cause them to be intensely instructed in self-discipline, enforceing as necessary with corporal punishment, as appropriate. There's nothing like getting your butt whomped to re-enforce a lesson in deportment.
All this would take a generation to accomplish, but you can bet your bottom dollar (peso) that the result would be a nation of conscientiously "correct" people.

I would like to add that ALL Dominicans are not"socially" enept. I am married to a wonderful Dominicana. We have 3 lovely boys whom I am making every attempt to educate through plain old "do as I do and as I say" leadership. I find that approach to be very effective. Yes, they resist me from time to time when our goals differ, but for the most part, I get good responses from them. I am confinced that self discipline is the key to proper social conduct. Imposed discipline is not necessary, unless there is blatant disrespect and/or disregard for the sensibilities of others. Experimentally, I have left money laying around with absolutely no loss what-so-ever. Something i would not have done while living in manzanillo, where I suffered losses through misplaced trust. I no longer concern myself with such, since it just doesn't happen. The same with Margarita's remaining family. None of them have ever asked me for a single peso. I would trust them and their inate honesty explicitly. They're apoor as "church mice" but possess an inherent integrity that I admire. I help where and when I can. A brother and myself have entered into a partnership of raising pigs. We only have 2 sows but plan to expand through appropriate breeding with agood boar. I anticipate that within a year, I can turn the whole business over to him and he will have a good livlyhood for himself and his family. Then there are 6 others to get started in something. A long term project, to be sure. just hope I live long enough to accomplish all that I wish to. I'm 79, so that might not happen. I am encouraged by good health and a tranquil existance, fully supported by a loving wife and children.
Many of my posts are somewhat vitrolic, but it is my nature to focus on things which I find deplorable. Hopefully, and eventually, I can offer solutions to the social-political-economic problems that confront this society. I'm working on it. Look at some of my comments to articles in Dominican Today and you'll see what my approach is.

Texas Bill


Texas Bill
 
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observer keen

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alvarez,you are moving fast on your eugenics agenda!

why stop there, great social engineer? le'st kill off the handicapped, all the individuals who are shorter than 5-10, all the non-christians_ let's just make the DR of our dreams, the DR with german-and-dutch sounding names! brilliant idea!
ironically, your opinions are highly valued here! alvarez, the poor people of dr of whom you are so critical are not uncoachable. they are not morons, evolution would have never allowed a group of morons to survive for so long. your masses are conditioned by a culture of poverty, but they can be educated and thus become the equal of your idealized dutch-german yardstick if you are not willing to take the cowardly route. what would you do with your unwanted fellow countrymen, great social engineer? do not worry, your opinions are expressed explicitly enough for me to deduce your great social uplifting program. after all, one has hitler to look up to!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 

observer keen

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ponder on "low-class"!

" ...low-class germans/dutch.." as written by alvarez.

have you wondered why they have remained low-class in meritocratic societies of western europe? being low-class in a country that rewards talent with amazing access to opportunity such as germany is vastly different from being low-class in a country that can barely satisfy its basic needs while still retaining the colonial vestige of class-discrimination based on blood-line. in other words, the low-class in dr is more a result of tradition or internalized fatalism than it is a result of lazyness or lack of discipline, whereas low-class in meritocratic contemporary germany would be a result of lack of a talent or discipline( a german who does not understand calculus cannot blame such a failure on a lack of available resources whereas santiago may have many potential gausses who are illiterate walking aroung naked).
your tentative program of social engineering must have been inspired by the australian sucess; but, just because modern australia was created by low-class europeans does not mean that low-class individuals from contemporary western europe will necessarily duplicate that great success story. why? because the low-class of colonial britain was a result of societal pressures created by unfair discrimination agaisnt people of lowly birth( in those times, the low-class still retained its unexploited and underdevelopped talent, it was a victim of circumstances beyond its control such as fatalistic tradition and aristocratic oppression) whereas the low-class of comtemporary europe, a region that has been more or less meritocratic for quite sometime, cannot be said to be a result of crippling discrimination_ this contemporary low-class is either deficient in talent or it is very undisciplined. your failure to consider these relevant factors is symptomatic of this reactionary yearning, generally based on false logics, among european-wannabes in third-world societies.
two different mechanisms led to the same thing, but you have assumed them to be the same. in conlusion, importing those low-class germans would not create the success of australia since your traditional dominican low-class is bound to have more raw talent than those low-class germans who have failed to optimize themselves in a meritocratic german society with its universal early-childhood education. you would do a better job by starting to educate your masses for they still have substantial raw talent in all human endeavors_ intellectual, cultural, economical, and technological, something that cannot be said for the comtemporay german or dutch low-class for the good reasons mentioned above.
 
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bob saunders

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Observer Keen, perhaps you should quote Frank properly, he said "low class europeans and good German/Dutch". If you quote wrong, it doesn't help with yourside of the argument. Besides, it's obvious that Frank is just blowing off steam and frustration. I don't agree that Dominicans are unteachable or unable to adapt, but the DR is a land of vast resources (good soil, water, and natural resources) One who have to question why the Dominican people have put up with such poor politics and allowed their country to go backwards. I certainly don't have the answers.

Please read Franks post again, and then re-visit your post, IT WILL MAKE YOU SOUND LESS LIKE AN ID.....
 

observer keen

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bob saunders, you don't have to be an apologist for alvarez!

adding good to the quote would not change the basic tenets of my argument.
so make it " good low-class europeans.."' how significantly would it change my argument? think about this: if one adds one black dot in the inner-ear of a uniformely white cat, does that change the descriptive color of the cat, or will the cat become multicolored?
being familiar with gestalt psychology, it has become clear that ID...= IDIOT.
if you believe something to be true, have the courage to spit it out!
 
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Ricardo900

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Jul 12, 2004
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No Americans

frank alvarez said:
We don't want any Spaniards or French who got us into this mess way back when. We also don't want any Americans since they have helped make the original French/Spanish mess even worse, here and in most of Latin America.
Why you good for nothin Dominican:laugh: After all of the great things that the Good Ole USofA has done for your country and people,hahaha.

I being an American am insulted that you would take Dutch & German citizens over red-blooded, apple-pie eating americans.

Now if you don't apologize and put Americans first on that list of yours, we will invade your country, make it a commonwealth, dollarize your society, substitute rice and beans for hamburgers and french fries, and force you guys to wear Levis and listen to Hank Williams, hahaha
 

bob saunders

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observer keen said:
adding good to the quote would not change the basic tenets of my argument.
so make it " good low-class europeans.."' how significantly would it change my argument? think about this: if one adds one black dot in the inner-ear of a uniformely white cat, does that change the descriptive color of the cat, or will the cat become multicolored?
being familiar with gestalt psychology, it has become clear that ID...= IDIOT.
if you believe something to be true, have the courage to spit it out!

You aren't getting or are ignoring the point. You still didn't get the quote right. When you quote someone incorrectly and use that incorrect quote to build up an oppossing view, you look like an idiot. I'm not arguing with the correctness or agreement in your point of view, just observing that you are not such a " keen observer" regardless of how well you did in your debating class.
 
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observer keen

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frank alvarez said:
I'm even willing to take 300,000 low-class Europeans since with about 200,000 good German/Dutch citizens and about 5 million good Dominicans left behind, we could get a great society started. Boy, what a possibility that would be. However, would the Europeans make the trade?

saunders, the above statement is an except of mr alvarez's original posting; then on what logical basis have you accused me of significantly misquoting him?
what does "5 million good dominicans left behind" mean to you? how can someone misinterpret such an explicily expressed opinion?
why are you reversing the tide toward me?
i do not understand your hostility toward an optimist like myself and your cowardly defense of a pessimist like mr alvarez_ such hostility is unwarranted. are you displaying hostility in response to my choice of words which may strike you as condescending. it is not my fault, i was reared to speak in such a manner. it is habit, not condescension!
if i were to reveal one of my flaws to you, would that help?
i have ADD and tend to be oblivious to the passage of time!
i also am a love-child, with these short-comings, i am far from being a perfect person. i am as imperfect as humans come.
 

bob saunders

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Only egotistal people would say that they were raised to speak in a condesending way. What a load of verbal diarrea spews out of you. Admit that you misquoted and move on. Of Course Frank's statements are ridiculous and were made for reaction. An intelligent fellow like yourself should realize that. You still haven't what your solution to the Dominicans problems. Surely you have an answer to the question I posed.
 

observer keen

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bob, why don't you just read me objectively?

i have said "... may strike you as condescending.." but that does not mean i am condescending.
 

Quisqueya

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I dont want to butt in but Observer Keen isn't lying about being reared to speak in a condescending way. That's just one of the negative traits that came from Europe. I guess???? Although, this trait isn't as meaningful anymore especially in the caribbean spanish speakers.

OK, unconscious folks are wondering what in the bloody hell is this bloke ranting about? Well, would you speak to your servant using "Usted"? Nope!!! you will address her in the "tu" form which is a condescending because of her low status in society. This negative trait can be found in all of the european societies..Even the "britons" apply this form status although it isn't enforce in the everyday environment but this behavoir isn't too prevelant in american english..Ok, I think this belongs in Spanish 101 thread...sorry..

Well, it is indeed a pessimitic view on the part of the OP. Low class is just that "low class" no matter what corner of the world you come from although the low class in europe maybe middle/upper class in the DR. Ok, the point is if those low class dominicans were given the opportunity or even refined by the so called 5 millions dominicans this laissez-faire attitude towards society wouldn't be as prevelant. Thus, its the 5 million who know better that are the root of the problem. Besides, if the low class of those groups mention stay in the DR too long; they will slowly pick up the bad habits of society, and we'll be back to square one.


Thus, a more logical approach would be to teach those 'dirty blood' how to respect themselves first and their surroundings in order to have a functional society...

dirty blood=sang-sale fr. carib word

Note: the word "sang sale" is a condescending word in the french carib. to associate with the poor lower class.
 
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observer keen

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i have answered franck because these opinions reflect his true feelings_ he is not playing, he is serious, my friend! make a mistake and elect this guy to power, and you will see his program of ethnic cleaning as top priority. if he had not meant these things, why is he not responding, why hasn't apologized to the poor people of dominican republic? "... with 5 million good dominicans *left behind", what the hell that is supposed to mean other than what i have horribly imagined? the key word here is "left behind" _with the history of nazis and the hutus, such self-righteous opinions about the other "people" should be avoided.
when i see red flag, i reveal it to other people!
i am not condescending, i would personally go to ghettos in brooklyn to teach math to gangter-kids. i am just proper to a fault, which i know. i tend to be overanalytical, that i know. these are flaws, not condescension!
but i will tell you something, i have faith in this species from pygmies to red-haired irish boys, do you?
 
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Quisqueya

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Observer K,

Sake ap fet...

Listen I think you are over reacting "tou piti". I believe everyone has the right to express themselves whether it's right or wrong..But I do understand what your sentiments are which I think is the l OP is insinuating genocide..Moi perso, I dont think he took it that far but neither you or I can know for sure unless the OP confirms these accusations....thus, you might be right or you might be wrong about the OP's statement...Besides, get real nobody on the island of hispaniola can spark such a horrific crusade..

To be honest the OP is justing ranting out his fustration out because of the irresponsibilities of the mass..I hope:ermm:

na pale ti male..
 
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easygoin

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He ain't heavy he's my brother

That is how we should look at it throughout the world. Will it happen? Not in our lifetime..... but it can also be a start for good things to come.

Does it really matter where you come from? I believe anyone on this board would help out the needy.

If someone walked up to my door in need I would help them, no matter what race, origin..... if they deserved it because they were in need.What's wrong with that?

Pertaining to Hitler.... he did a lot of great things for Germany whether you know it or not.

We're here to talk about what can better the DR.

Cleaning up the streets, gangs, poverty, education, special programs, better infrastructure, and so much more.


BUTT it's going to take a well-defined system, meaning everyone works as a team to accomplish this anywhere in the world.... It can happen with ideas.
 

Texas Bill

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easygoin-----

Your post open an extremely broad horizon to explore insofar as "social" philosophy is concerned. Think about that statement and you will see my point.

This particular board/thread isn't the place to open discussion about the numerous questions that pop into my mind immediately as a result of your post, so suffice to say that the implications are innumerable.

Where these implications would fit into references specific to the DR might be in the rhealm of the Trujillo years, with occasionally branching off to Balaguer and others of a less "dictatorial" bent, then making the comparison to other "leaders" of nations from history and their impact on the development of today's world-wide civilization. One could write a book.

What I'm referring to are the implications of the defining of the terms "need", "deserved", "great", and others implicit in your post and from a non-personal viewpoint.

Think along those lines, broaden the immediate connotations, and I think you'll see what I mean.

I'm not being critical. On the contrary, I thank you for subjecting my inquisitive mind to such though provoking statements.

Texas Bill
 

observer keen

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What Is Going On With The Censuring Of "closed"?
The Forum Is Not Using Limited Resources Such As Ink Or Paper_one Particular Participant Is Not Holding Another Off. This Is Not The Phone-booth Or A Switch-board, What Is The Problem Here? We Are Not Being Off Topic. It Is Politics, Isn't It.
Mister Robert, Can You Tell Us Why You Have Decided To Close The Thread? I Know That I Am Not Paying The Bills Here, But If One Claims To Be Promoting Democracy Then One Must Make A Consistent Effort To Be Transparent. At Least Be Respectful As To Why You Have Decided To Close The Thread.
 

Robert

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observer keen said:
What Is Going On With The Censuring Of "closed"?
The Forum Is Not Using Limited Resources Such As Ink Or Paper_one Particular Participant Is Not Holding Another Off. This Is Not The Phone-booth Or A Switch-board, What Is The Problem Here? We Are Not Being Off Topic. It Is Politics, Isn't It.
Mister Robert, Can You Tell Us Why You Have Decided To Close The Thread? I Know That I Am Not Paying The Bills Here, But If One Claims To Be Promoting Democracy Then One Must Make A Consistent Effort To Be Transparent. At Least Be Respectful As To Why You Have Decided To Close The Thread.

Democracy??? I don't think so.
This is a privately funded and operated website, we have the right to do whatever, whenever we want.

Why was it closed?

Because it degraded into drivel and childish BS.
Sorry, I don't do explanations very well, I have enough to do with my time.

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