How can Haiti develop?

mountainannie

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Dec 11, 2003
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The Haiti Haters

Chip,,,,,,,,

I consider the Catholic Church as "the wonderful folks who brought us the Inquisition"

You and I will agree to disagree here and I hope that you will keep your opinions about Voodu to yourself....

And then I will keep my opinions about Catholicism and the damage that it has done ... also to myself...

namaste
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Great. I hate Haiti so much I'm willing to go there and work and be part of the solution?

I guess you'd call my Christian Haitian brothers "Haiti haters" WHO THINK LIKE I DO as well.

Also, it is a standard ploy to get personal when there is no logical response available.
 

Goll

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Mar 10, 2009
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The Haiti Haters

Thanks, MountainAnnie for the link to Amy Wilentz's article. Hopefully a few more people will read it and cease making such negative comments about a whole nation. I have not yet been to Haiti and will not try to suggest solutions, but I think the more the money and power is decentralised the better. Decisionmaking as well should be localised and as many people as possible involved in reconstruction and development. I am quite certain however that the aid money will be squandered, a lot of it will end up resting in Swiss bank accounts or invested in properties in the Cote d'Azur, and only foreign companies will profit from 'development'. I see no reason at all for optimism.
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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The Haiti Haters

Chip,,,,,,,,

I consider the Catholic Church as "the wonderful folks who brought us the Inquisition"

You and I will agree to disagree here and I hope that you will keep your opinions about Voodu to yourself....

And then I will keep my opinions about Catholicism and the damage that it has done ... also to myself...

namaste

It's easy to play the blame game because there are so many that share the blame. France and the US are partly to blame, Canada has supported some less than honorable decisions by the UN, France and the USA. The Haitians have never had a decent government, or if they have they have killed the leaders, or toppled them. The Churchs have been guilty of worrying more about filling pews than helping the people become self suficient responsible people. Voodoo plays its part. Nature has also been unkind to Haiti. The Haitian people have not accepted in to practise many western ideas that would help them and this has prevented them as a nation from advancing. I'm married to a Catholic, whose has close conections with many priests and nuns, so I'm quite aware of the workings of the Catholic church in the DR and Haiti. I see both the good that they do and the harm.
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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Catholic Church attitude

Except fron national post article:
"In a month, I hope we will have a place that feels more like home," said Sister Charles, who has devoted her time to the facility since 1986. "God will help us, but we need to take our future into our own hands."
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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i'm wondering if there needs to be "international aid sanctions" on haiti until the entire country votes on a referendum (like happens in europe when countries join the EU).

The requirements for international aid could include:
- true property rights
- all political & legal procedures in creole
- retroactive dual nationality
- basic anticorruption measures
- 24 hour business incorporations
- legal protection for women and children

It could be designed to be easily implemented, and increasing over time as they get better. But if they start to backtrack, then the aid gets shut off by political "aid sanctions".

Of course Haiti would be welcome to participate in the global economy as they have been.
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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i'm wondering if there needs to be "international aid sanctions" on haiti until the entire country votes on a referendum (like happens in europe when countries join the EU).

The requirements for international aid could include:
- true property rights
- all political & legal procedures in creole
- retroactive dual nationality
- basic anticorruption measures
- 24 hour business incorporations
- legal protection for women and children

It could be designed to be easily implemented, and increasing over time as they get better. But if they start to backtrack, then the aid gets shut off by political "aid sanctions".

Of course Haiti would be welcome to participate in the global economy as they have been.

Like I said, for now, split the City up into municipal districts each run by a board with Haitians as well as foreigners to make sure their is no siphoning off of money. That being said the Haitan gov't needs to get their schit together and allow these numerous Haitian professionals living abroad like in the States to come back and contribute and be accepted.

Lets say the city is split up into 20 municipal districts. Whenever funding is available, they would each send a representative to the international funding meetings with a breakdown of current and future demographics and needs for their infrastructure projects etc. Progress meetings would also be expected to make sure the money is being spent on the projects, that progress is being made and that it is on schedule.
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Also, the first phase will consist of the planning, surveying and later the engineering of the infrastructure plans.

Haiti's surveying need to be brought up to 21st century standards and this won't happen in house. This will come from abroad and I expect with so many surveyors out of work in Florida they will gladly come and make it happen. Once the City has been gridded properly a GIS system can be created and the real planning and engineering can be done.

The engineering can be done in phases but the most important things will be to get the water and sewer lines in. Of course water and wastewater plants will be needed to be built, but these can started on almost immediately after the City is broken up into municipal districts as a quick census/demographic study can be done.

A waste water plant will be the easiest but potable water plants may be a challenge for a number of reasons. First, one needs a relatively clean water source. Salt water isn't a problem as desalinization plants are common now, especially in the Caribbean. The issue is how far does one have to go away from the port to find a relatively non human contaminated source. However, I expect that there may be a good source of well water basing this on the proximity to a project I have in the Western DR and conversations with a couple geotechical engineers. At any rate, these plant can be built concurrently while the gridding of the city is being wrapped up and the installation of the new sewer and water mains.

Haiti could very well in 10 years have the most modern infrastructure, surveying and gis of any country in the Caribbean, less the US protectorates.
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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chip, you posted a link about how the US built out the haitian infrastructure in the 1900's. it seems you're proposing a repeat of history. i don't see building logistics as relevant yet.

i'm really skeptical of true change in haiti unless they are backed by something like global sanctions for non performance.
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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Chip what kind of waterlines do you install that are earthquake resistant?

I don't know if there are any. Then again, if we learn anything from the Japanese damage from every type of natural disaster, specifically earthquakes, are not preventable - yet one still has to build.
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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chip, you posted a link about how the US built out the haitian infrastructure in the 1900's. it seems you're proposing a repeat of history. i don't see building logistics as relevant yet.

i'm really skeptical of true change in haiti unless they are backed by something like global sanctions for non performance.

It is only irrevalent if Haitans not having a sanitary means of disposing of human waste nor a potable source of water is not important.

The link I showed wasn't intended to show we shouldn't invest in infrastructure, rather that Hiatians attitudes towards foreign involvement needs to change.

Whether anybody wants major investment in Haiti's infrastructure or not, it is going to happen. More than likely a lot like how I have described it. This will prevent the pilferation of the international communities funds. And with the Haitan governemtnt weakened to the point that it is now, there is no time like the present. Beers and tears to anyone who proves me wrong, because if I prove to be wrong it will be an utter crying shame.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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i'm wondering if there needs to be "international aid sanctions" on haiti until the entire country votes on a referendum (like happens in europe when countries join the EU).

The requirements for international aid could include:
- true property rights
- all political & legal procedures in creole
- retroactive dual nationality
- basic anticorruption measures
- 24 hour business incorporations
- legal protection for women and children

It could be designed to be easily implemented, and increasing over time as they get better. But if they start to backtrack, then the aid gets shut off by political "aid sanctions".

Of course Haiti would be welcome to participate in the global economy as they have been.
I'm not that au-fait with the mechanics or the politics of high-level bilateral aid, but there is a level at which aid will be conditional, rightly or wrongly. Stipulations like those above are the kinds of conditions that could be made - if they aren't already.

It is a way of imposing sanctions under a kinder name, I suppose.
 
May 29, 2006
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Some aid needs to go beyond carrot and stick. Putting in sewer systems and a water supply should not have strings attached.

Unfortunately creating a stable food supply through agrarian back-peddling is not considered "development" Making socks for Walmart for 15 cents an hour is.

Bring back the creole pigs to pre 1980s level and import enough charcoal to stop deforestation and you will be able to get a stable government in no time. Haiti was exporting rice until the US put the local farmers out of business.
 
May 29, 2006
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Why not convert something like this into a cell phone charger?

SELF CHARGER FM RADIO WITH LIGHT-Wholesale toys, novelties, bulk toys, wholesale redemption, toys, novelty, plush, candy

oh look, someone aready did:

Amazon.com: LED Hand Crank Flashlight - Cell phone charger, Radio, Alarm: Baby

I don't get why products like this are not imported more. Cheap and incredibly useful, I think everyone on the island should have one. You can't get development if people can't have access to media. No electric, no radio. With radios you can have kids listening to educational programs while they are stirring the rice pots. For $10 million everyone on the island could have access to a radio and light(they would share of course). Seems like a no brainer to me.
 

las2137

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Sep 1, 2008
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Chiri, excellent post on aid absorption!

For USAID, for instance, the main requirement for a successful project is that the money is accounted for correctly... NOT that there were any results on the ground!!

Having managed several USAID projects in the past, I have to disagree with this statement. Yes, there is a requirement that the money spent be in line with the agreed upon budget- which makes perfect sense. But there are other indicators that all recipients must report on and if they are not met then the recipients face penalties, either immediate or longer-term.

I'm not justifying or defending USAID- at the end of the day they are a bureaucracy- but they do care about more than just project expenditures. I'm not familiar with USAID Haiti's operations, but in all of the countries where I have worked with them, they place priority on working with local organizations and having local capacity building as part of the project goals.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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Chiri, how do you think this new Clinton-Bush organization, and Clinton's appointment as Special UN Envoy, fit into your analysis? Can either effort act in lieu of an inefficient government on a large enough scale to actually administer the kind of larger projects Haiti needs going forward?
I assume that one of the reasons this initiative was developed was to address that particular problem, but I don't know enough about it to predict its chances of success.

las2137 said:
Chiri, excellent post on aid absorption!
Thanks ::blush:: There was an element not mentioned which is advocacy. The medium/smaller aid agencies support Haitian organisations like PAPDA that do research and analysis of the country's problems and propose solutions that are based on the needs of the people as opposed to vested interests. Their opinions should be taken into account.

PAPDA: Plateforme Ha?tienne de Plaidoyer pour un D?veloppement Alternatif
 

Adrian Bye

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Jul 7, 2002
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How are we not repeating the same:

United States occupation of Haiti [1915-1934]

The occupation greatly improved some of Haiti's infrastructure and centralized power in Port-au-Prince. Infrastructure improvements were particularly impressive: 1700 km of roads were made usable, 189 bridges were built, many irrigation canals were rehabilitated, hospitals, schools, and public buildings were constructed, and drinking water was brought to the main cities. Port au-Prince became the first city of Latin America to have phone service available with automatic dialing. Agricultural education was organized with a central school of agriculture and 69 farms in the country.

The education system was re-designed from the ground up; however, this involved the destruction of the existing system of "liberal arts" education inherited (and adapted) from the French. Due to its emphasis on vocational training, the American system that replaced the French was despised by the elite.

United States occupation of Haiti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Jan 3, 2003
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TIME, it takes TIME.

How long did it take Medieval Europe to develop?

A millenia or more.

In less time than that due to foreign assistance, Haiti should develop properly in about 200-300 years from now.

It takes TIME. Adrian wants results within decades when the HAITI problem was created over centuries.

You should know trends don't turn on a dime. The DEVELOPMENT TREND has been down for a long time (centuries) so it will take an equal amount of time to get it back.

Since 1804 it has been down hill. Give it an equal amount of time to get it back on its feet.