And if the USA should step in again, then the rest of the world will have them to blame, as they did after the earthquake, to paraphrase the movie "History of the world phrase ITS GOOD TO BE THE KING" "ITS GOOD TO HAVE A WHIPPING BOY".
- Thread starter NALs
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I'm Convinced That Haiti Truly Is Cursed!
And if the USA should step in again, then the rest of the world will have them to blame, as they did after the earthquake, to paraphrase the movie "History of the world phrase ITS GOOD TO BE THE KING" "ITS GOOD TO HAVE A WHIPPING BOY".
And let's not forget Latin America :cheeky:
My mother-in-law jokes that she's an American too, a Latin American.
AE
Indonesia hasn't been lagging far behind this past week, what was it, tsunami, volcano or earthquake?.....two thirds of pakistan was underwater,,,,,,,,tornadoes have killled 33 people in the US in the past two weeks.............
Um that would be what I referenced as Central and South America plus Mexico. Plus a little of the Caribbean. Cuba, DR, and PR. which is normally combined with Central America. But I will concede the point.
Interesting post this. To my view symptomatic of a world view whereby others are responsible and no responsibility is taken by the individual.
Let?s remember that:
1. Haiti is independent since 1804. That's over 200 years to build a society of their choice.
2. Haiti started out with some very rich plantations and should be able to generate substantial income; instead they degenerated into a fighting, civil warring, criminal group. Nobody did this to them, the Haitians choose this for themselves.
3. Until the easy aid money dries up there will no incentive for the people of Haiti to start making their own money, they are in effect aid addicts. They also start making demands for a certain quality of aid, rather than being happy with what they do recieve.
Let's not forget, Haiti choose this fate for themselves. If they feel the need to rob people who come to help them, why should we help them. Unless their attitude changes, I'd be perfectly happy to let them starve and die, thus solving their own problem.
Just make sure the DR frontier is kept sealed.
Please do not make the mistake of thinking that the "rich plantations" of Haiti bore any resemblance to any sort of viable enterprise... they were run under what is now considered the most brutal form of slavery ever in existence.
The French expected that at least one third of the slaves would die in transit.. planned for it, so that only the strongest survived.
They had a regular import business and did not attempt to breed slaves on the Island.
Haiti produced under this system of forced labor.. more than all the British colonies of the West Indies combined including the 13 colonies of the US.
The armies of Haiti were paid in land.. (here it goes into differences between the north and south.. Petion and Boyer) .. which was the only currency available... since the trees were cut for lumber to pay the "debt" owed to France for the loss of her "property"....the only former colony which had to pay such reparations.
I do not think it is accurate to say that Haiti chose this for themselves.
You want to know the scary part......We are tied to them like simese twins. We can't cut them off and let the float into the atlantic. We must work to get Haiti back on its feet and moving in the right direction because in the end a well educated and govern haiti makes for a much better Republica Dominicana.
Mountainannie,
While the slavetrade was a very bad patch in history it is not responsible for the current state of affairs.
To my knowledge the Haitian people that currently live in Haiti:
1. Have had 200 years to build their country
2. Have been sliding ever since their independence, following a succesion of self styled emperors, who used the nations wealth to build imitation Versaille palaces instead of improving their country
3. Believe the Haitian way is best (noiristes coupled with some twisted way of the original voodoo religion)
4. Are utterly corrupt, just think of the demand the president has made that aid funds be made available to him, since he is best placed to disburse them
5. Are aid addicts, always with their hand out
6. Will not reform because any outsider says so
Many Haitians have fled their country and this has led to a somewhat prospering diaspora, let them 'help' their countrymen out. Guess what, any attempt to do so is stonewalled by the local corrupt clan (see the bid by Wyclef to run for President).
While the slavetrade was a very bad patch in history it is not responsible for the current state of affairs.
To my knowledge the Haitian people that currently live in Haiti:
1. Have had 200 years to build their country
2. Have been sliding ever since their independence, following a succesion of self styled emperors, who used the nations wealth to build imitation Versaille palaces instead of improving their country
3. Believe the Haitian way is best (noiristes coupled with some twisted way of the original voodoo religion)
4. Are utterly corrupt, just think of the demand the president has made that aid funds be made available to him, since he is best placed to disburse them
5. Are aid addicts, always with their hand out
6. Will not reform because any outsider says so
Many Haitians have fled their country and this has led to a somewhat prospering diaspora, let them 'help' their countrymen out. Guess what, any attempt to do so is stonewalled by the local corrupt clan (see the bid by Wyclef to run for President).
I agree with a lot of that.. certainly the political class is corrupt and the state there has always been predatory.
I think that the aid addiction was also CREATED by the donors, no?
Duvalier would not have stayed in power were it not for foreign aid
The US has invaded and occupied Haiti twice.. so they (we) bear some of the blame for the state of things, no?
Just that there are shades of grey
and lots of blame to go around
just a bit harsh to blame the victims.
And I disagree about the influence of the slave trade.. that it was just a bad patch.. I think that the mentality of slave and owner has never really been overcome in Haiti... that the upper class regards the peasantry as really just that...
sorta like a family with a history of abuse where there has been no intervention to straighten it out and so the pattern just keeps repeating
Mountainannie,
You do make some fair points.
However, I still strongly feel that the current Haitian misery can only be broken when aid is broken off and the Haitian people learn to be reliant upon themselves again. The diaspora is sufficient proof that there is nothing wrong with Haitains per se so they will get back on their feet again.
A hands off approach will do much to let the Haitian govt see the true light of day.
The slavetrade is another matter entirely and while sad, not responsible for the current Haitian situation imo.
Agreed... with the stipulated reservations.
One of the shock waves that is going through Haiti now is Bill Clinton's position that "we need to put ourselves out of work here" --his Clinton Foundation has a policy that it will only fund projects that will be self sustaining after two years. The fact that he is in charge of big donor money is a signal that the "welfare train" is going to stop.
There is a real effort underway to get the NGOs to be accountable to some sort of local political authority.. some central plan and stop their piecemeal work.
There is HUGE money in the international aid industry. notwithstanding the fact that it has proved to be an utter failure in most of the developing world.
This, of course, will not stop the Christians who feel it their duty to wipe out the African based religion... and, sadly, since we now have the Faith Based Initiative, much of the foreign aid from the US does go through these groups.
Mountainannie,
While commendable from a charitable point of view, I believe that developmental aid adn the NGO industry, currently does nothing in the end to help a country get back upon it's feet.
Sure, they alleviate what would otherwise be a subhuman situation a little bit (but mostly when there are cameras nearby; lest funding might be jaepardised), which in itself is commendable.
In the long run however, I believe that organisations as Terre des Hommes, Save the Children etc, on a board level are to concerned about sustaining themselves (albeit staffed with true humanitarians at the grassroot level), to fully support a long term solution. The best indication of this are the significant salary packages the board of directors often secure.
From where I'm sitting it is an industry that sustains itself and only secondary is concerced with its product. At its worst it can be seen as a form of neocolonialism that puffs up the importance of the NGO's through the sustainment of local cliques (not only in haiti but all over the world).
So let's see if BCF can ring the much needed changes in this, but given the FBI approach I'm not holding my breath.
While commendable from a charitable point of view, I believe that developmental aid adn the NGO industry, currently does nothing in the end to help a country get back upon it's feet.
Sure, they alleviate what would otherwise be a subhuman situation a little bit (but mostly when there are cameras nearby; lest funding might be jaepardised), which in itself is commendable.
In the long run however, I believe that organisations as Terre des Hommes, Save the Children etc, on a board level are to concerned about sustaining themselves (albeit staffed with true humanitarians at the grassroot level), to fully support a long term solution. The best indication of this are the significant salary packages the board of directors often secure.
From where I'm sitting it is an industry that sustains itself and only secondary is concerced with its product. At its worst it can be seen as a form of neocolonialism that puffs up the importance of the NGO's through the sustainment of local cliques (not only in haiti but all over the world).
So let's see if BCF can ring the much needed changes in this, but given the FBI approach I'm not holding my breath.
Haiti has a long time to right itself and it just has not been able to do it mostly due to corruption.
At this point I don't see the international community backing out now to test the Haitians so it really is a moot point.
I see a real turning point for the Haitian people in the next 10 years but for their future to remain secure the diaspora must return to manage the infrastructure and business it will bring or the corrupt types will mismanage it and let it go to ruin. If there is any doubt that corruption could ruin all this I ask people remember the Haitian poster on another thread about the candidacy of Jean Wyclef who defended Haitian politics. If they get their way the elite will keep on skimming the cream off and leaving the utter dregs for the rest of the population.
At this point I don't see the international community backing out now to test the Haitians so it really is a moot point.
I see a real turning point for the Haitian people in the next 10 years but for their future to remain secure the diaspora must return to manage the infrastructure and business it will bring or the corrupt types will mismanage it and let it go to ruin. If there is any doubt that corruption could ruin all this I ask people remember the Haitian poster on another thread about the candidacy of Jean Wyclef who defended Haitian politics. If they get their way the elite will keep on skimming the cream off and leaving the utter dregs for the rest of the population.
As usual, too much tarring NGOs in Haiti with same brush. Some are undoubtedly perpetuating dependence, others are there to brainwash, some are inefficient and corrupt, but some are also doing good work providing people with skills.
Business skills, farming and food processing, marketing, community organisation, finance, literacy, health education, disaster preparedness - just to mention a few.
If more of them did that, the next generation, maybe even this one, will be in a better shape to get the country back on its feet.
Business skills, farming and food processing, marketing, community organisation, finance, literacy, health education, disaster preparedness - just to mention a few.
If more of them did that, the next generation, maybe even this one, will be in a better shape to get the country back on its feet.
The old saying "Give me a fish and I'll eat for a day. Teach me how to fish and I'll eat for a lifetime" is what resonates with me when thinking about Haiti. Haitians need to learn what it's like to provide for themselves before ffinally becoming great. They need to become a commonwealth of another country, schools will be built and some infrastructure will begin, eventually Haitians will want to branch out of that which is what a commonwealth is.
It's like welfare, the point of welfare is to eventually get off of it right? There is some hope for Haiti but they have proven time and time again they cannot do it alone...
It's like welfare, the point of welfare is to eventually get off of it right? There is some hope for Haiti but they have proven time and time again they cannot do it alone...
You are very right Chiri.
People consistently criticise NGO's for being short sighted or interested only for economic reasons as if they were managed by the same group of people. I guess they never got the memo that NGO means "non government authority".
You start out good and then get sidetracked again. Haiti, while dependent on foreign aid is a sovereign country and last I remembered they have not done anything that merits being invaded, occupied and made a part of some other country against their own will. People should stop with the fantasy scenarios and respect Haiti's sovereignity. Sometimes I get the feeling that I am in grade school again discussing politics.
You start out good and then get sidetracked again. Haiti, while dependent on foreign aid is a sovereign country and last I remembered they have not done anything that merits being invaded, occupied and made a part of some other country against their own will. People should stop with the fantasy scenarios and respect Haiti's sovereignity. Sometimes I get the feeling that I am in grade school again discussing politics.
Great post !!
The very idea that you need to teach Haitians how to farm is hilarious.
The Tilapia initiative is one exception, but I tam telling you now as 100% fact with absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Haitians do not need to be told how to grow food.
Take my mother inlaw - she grows pumpkin and other stuff, but she is known for pumpkin.
She has land lying fallow. Why? Because she does not know how to farm???
NO!
Because there is no road to get the produce to Port au Prince where the people are.
Her mum raised pigs - originally the super yummy Haitian variety but more recently until she died, the pink, curly tailed sunburn prone bacon variety.
She raised a lot of pigs and did very well. Pigs travel well in a truck - they stay fresh until you kill them.
Their land is in a hilly region of southern Haiti where you cannot grow grains or rice.
So what do they do?
They grow what they can eat and sell and do not waste their time growing stuff they cannot sell.
If you want to learn how to farm then I will introduce you.
Sorry if I sound confrontational but this is just typical of peoples' opinions of Haiti.
They need roads - not lessons in doing something they have been doing well for generations.
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