- Thread starter Mauricio
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Inefficiency of the Dominican Economy
Some very interesting points are made here.
Here is my take:
1. People are not taught to take the initiave and be responsible for their actions from an early age, they are mostly thaught to let the social status quo be as it is and to sell their interests to the highest bidders come election time
2. The opportunities for advancement by your own work are not as big as they are in most Western countries (including the little country by the sea), one is held back by others at every opportunity, this does affect work-moral
3. A lot of people must seek solace from this and do so in many ways; religion, drink, drugs, crime and games. The Roman model very much applies here.
Here is my take:
1. People are not taught to take the initiave and be responsible for their actions from an early age, they are mostly thaught to let the social status quo be as it is and to sell their interests to the highest bidders come election time
2. The opportunities for advancement by your own work are not as big as they are in most Western countries (including the little country by the sea), one is held back by others at every opportunity, this does affect work-moral
3. A lot of people must seek solace from this and do so in many ways; religion, drink, drugs, crime and games. The Roman model very much applies here.
First, your post reflect massive ignorance on YOUR part in may ways...
For starting, your GNP data appears faulty...the most widely accepted method of calculating GNP or GNI is the so-called PPP which roughly accounts for purchasing power differences among countries (one dollar here is not "worth" one dollar there in terms of what you can actually buy with it)...By PPP the Dominican per-capita GNP is about 10K...the Netherlands' (your country) is about 45k...so, yes it is bigger (what a surprise!!!...maybe you should be there instead!)...about 4.5/5-to-one is a significant but by no means stratospheric difference all things considered (by comparison the DR'S is about 7-to-1 higher than Haiti's)... The DR figure is ranked about 85 from the top among about 185 countries...so most are below....could be better but by no means horrible.
Didn't you think of your future sons before marrying a Dominican? What if her Dominican genes make your sons be as lazy as the Dominican men you depict (which apparently are most/all as far as you are concerned)? Doesn't that go under being a responsible father(to-be)?
The level of ignorance you show about the Dominican society is frightening, particularly for someone who purports to be married to a Dominican...shockingly enough (to you) great many Dominican men do have gainful employments...believe it or not, quite a few occupy professional positions in both the public and private sectors...yes there are lots of Dominican men who are professionals such as lawyers, engineers, economists, accountants, etc...Quite a few of those professions are largely male dominated...in fact you may be shocked to learn that the DR is still largely "a male dominated" society according to feminists... for example, some were complaining weeks ago that the vast majority of cabinet ministries (and many other lower but important positions) are occupied by...MEN...Dominican men in fact, if you can believe it...and the situation in the private sector is no different, or may be even more male dominated...
In addition to professionals, there are great many Dominican men in the "lower" classes who do in fact make everyday a legitimate effort to earn a living, as shocking as that may seem to you...you can see it all around you...whether as taxi/bus/publico drivers or motoconcho workers, as a policemen or security guards, most are Dominican men...there are many also working at stores or supermarkets, in hospitals, courts, public offices, there are LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of Dominican men actually working for a living....what a surprise! (to you). In the countryside there are quite a few Dominican men working on the fields also (although Haitians take everyday more of those jobs)....Perhaps your Dominican wife can help you find such men....
Don't worry...I will not claim that all or even most Dutch men are ignorant, egotistical, highly prejudiced individuals who go around making sweeping generalisations about people they hardly know with little to no basis...all countries have some of those...lots and lots of Dutch men are decent human beings, even if some aren't.
In reply to PICHARDO and Dominicaus: you both are not getting the essence of my OP. maybe to both of your surprise I'm completely aware of many succesful Dominican men (and women) both entrepreneurs and employees and I actually am surrounded by them. Purposely I left out the word lazy in my OP, because I don't consider the part of the population that seems to be doing nothing lazy per se, maybe what many others are replying is true, it's fatalism.
PICHARDO's comments that Dominicans chose the better part by not only living to work but better yet working (or not) to live (my translation of your post) doesn't make sense for those who live in poverty and have no money to buy medicines when someone gets sick, or sometimes have to send their children to bed without dinner. It DOES make sense in another way: when I look at many people I live around (e.g. My family in law, neighbors) I see people that are having good jobs or succesful companies but if their might be a reason or need to leave the company the company and visit family, go on a trip, dedicate time to something else, they do without thinking what they might not earn that time, and I appreciate and learned from that big time in my time in this country. In my country many people do live the rat race while in DR there is a small part of the population (I always thought it was a big part but have been realizing it's not but it happens to be my environment) that doesn't allow themselves to live the rat race. However the bigger part of the nation doesn't even live the rat race, they just do nothing. I actually don't think they are to blame, it's the economy that needs modernization.
Just for PICHARDO's information: Holland happens to be the country that in several 'studies' appears to have the most content population, go talk to mothers of three to eight children in a barrio to find out how happy they are.
Dominicaus says I should have used PPP based GNP per capita. I used GNP as a total and not adjusted for purchasing power on purpose because for what I'm pointing out I don't care about purchasing power but the size of the economy as a whole. It's about what you produce as a country, not what the population can buy with it, besides I think the PPP are flawed while I can buy more with a dollar in Holland than in DR.
I actually did think about our chikdren's future before coming back and ts right now an issue we are considering. My wife is a nationalized Dutch citizen so whenever we think it fit we can easily pack and go. However you don't hear me say there are no possibilities here, to the contrary, I say there are but that many Dominicans are sitting on their butts without taking advantage of them. With the right attitude (and I hope to teach my children that) they will. I'm not fraud they will be lazy while 1. That's not merely a genetical thing. 2. My wife nor her family are lazy, to the contrary.
So basically both of you should read my post for what it does say and not read a rant against DR. I think I'm one of the few foreigners in this forum bonus not only negative about DR, there are many things that impress me and people that inspire me, and I have expressed that in many posts but it's not all sunshine, there is something seriously wrong with the way the economy is organized that slows economical development down for the long term (notwithstanding current economical growth, once tourism is saturated I would like to see the numbers) and trying to be balanced I'm pointing that out too. The same is valid for Holland, it's a great country on many aspects but don't get me started about everything that's wrong.
PICHARDO's comments that Dominicans chose the better part by not only living to work but better yet working (or not) to live (my translation of your post) doesn't make sense for those who live in poverty and have no money to buy medicines when someone gets sick, or sometimes have to send their children to bed without dinner. It DOES make sense in another way: when I look at many people I live around (e.g. My family in law, neighbors) I see people that are having good jobs or succesful companies but if their might be a reason or need to leave the company the company and visit family, go on a trip, dedicate time to something else, they do without thinking what they might not earn that time, and I appreciate and learned from that big time in my time in this country. In my country many people do live the rat race while in DR there is a small part of the population (I always thought it was a big part but have been realizing it's not but it happens to be my environment) that doesn't allow themselves to live the rat race. However the bigger part of the nation doesn't even live the rat race, they just do nothing. I actually don't think they are to blame, it's the economy that needs modernization.
Just for PICHARDO's information: Holland happens to be the country that in several 'studies' appears to have the most content population, go talk to mothers of three to eight children in a barrio to find out how happy they are.
Dominicaus says I should have used PPP based GNP per capita. I used GNP as a total and not adjusted for purchasing power on purpose because for what I'm pointing out I don't care about purchasing power but the size of the economy as a whole. It's about what you produce as a country, not what the population can buy with it, besides I think the PPP are flawed while I can buy more with a dollar in Holland than in DR.
I actually did think about our chikdren's future before coming back and ts right now an issue we are considering. My wife is a nationalized Dutch citizen so whenever we think it fit we can easily pack and go. However you don't hear me say there are no possibilities here, to the contrary, I say there are but that many Dominicans are sitting on their butts without taking advantage of them. With the right attitude (and I hope to teach my children that) they will. I'm not fraud they will be lazy while 1. That's not merely a genetical thing. 2. My wife nor her family are lazy, to the contrary.
So basically both of you should read my post for what it does say and not read a rant against DR. I think I'm one of the few foreigners in this forum bonus not only negative about DR, there are many things that impress me and people that inspire me, and I have expressed that in many posts but it's not all sunshine, there is something seriously wrong with the way the economy is organized that slows economical development down for the long term (notwithstanding current economical growth, once tourism is saturated I would like to see the numbers) and trying to be balanced I'm pointing that out too. The same is valid for Holland, it's a great country on many aspects but don't get me started about everything that's wrong.
Criticism isn't bad, Maurico. It's the spirit in which it's given that matters. You've not been unkind to RD or Dominicans in your words. You've expressed love and with that love comes frustration. That's healthy.
“...if there is a way for the world to be transformed for the better, it can only be done by pessimism; optimists will never change the world for the better. ”- Jos? Saramago
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ok, saunders, your wife is not fatalistic, and so that settles that. just like your wife knows that the Dominican education system is far superior to the Cuban system, so all the guys who have conducted in depth studies to prove the superiority of the Cuban system are all wrong, and can discard all the working papers, because someone connected to you knows better.
a very interesting document, in case anyone is interested
cache:62wPxZBsbzQJ:https://faculty.ni****ingu.ca/jamesl/courses/GEOG3826/Latin%20America%20as%20a%20Culture%20Region.rtf fatalism in latin american societies - Buscar con Google
cache:62wPxZBsbzQJ:https://faculty.ni****ingu.ca/jamesl/courses/GEOG3826/Latin%20America%20as%20a%20Culture%20Region.rtf fatalism in latin american societies - Buscar con Google
in the event that the link fails to open, just type into google the following
Latin America as a culture region faculty.ni****ingu. the article will pop up in the list on the page. here is an interesting excerpt
Fatalism and Luck
Many Latin Americans believe that life is essentially ‘pre-programmed,’ and that little can be done to change its outcome, and hence your place in the world
Si Dios quiere (‘if God wills it’)
Widespread gambling
A belief in magic
Latin America as a culture region faculty.ni****ingu. the article will pop up in the list on the page. here is an interesting excerpt
Fatalism and Luck
Many Latin Americans believe that life is essentially ‘pre-programmed,’ and that little can be done to change its outcome, and hence your place in the world
Si Dios quiere (‘if God wills it’)
Widespread gambling
A belief in magic
If we're going to persist with the belief system theme, here are my 2 centimos. If religion per se is an obstacle to development, how does that explain religious yet highly developed countries like the US? I think in many cases it is an obstacle, but it's the more about the way religiosity is viewed and expressed. For many in Latin America religious belief is less about a moral framework, and more of a charm against evil/bad luck.
But in any case, I think the factors here go way beyond people's belief system although this does to some extent affect or result from the following - the highly stratified society, the limited legal and ethical options for upward mobility, and the lack of priority given to education both institutionally and culturally.
For many the only perceived route to success/affluence is not a university degree and hard work. They are surrounded by so many people who have studied, work hard and are still in poverty - so crime, corruption, luck (lottery win) or a big break as a ballplayer or musician are what they aspire to. The next best thing would be a government cushy or no-show botella job.
But in any case, I think the factors here go way beyond people's belief system although this does to some extent affect or result from the following - the highly stratified society, the limited legal and ethical options for upward mobility, and the lack of priority given to education both institutionally and culturally.
For many the only perceived route to success/affluence is not a university degree and hard work. They are surrounded by so many people who have studied, work hard and are still in poverty - so crime, corruption, luck (lottery win) or a big break as a ballplayer or musician are what they aspire to. The next best thing would be a government cushy or no-show botella job.
What arrogance! I would never dream of saying that an immigrant to the United States "only knows/understands what you are born into"!
And, once again, those inquiring minds want to know why it is when you are SO enamoured of the DR, that you do not live here?
Reminds me of my in laws who immigrated from Switzerland to the United States... and thereafter held Switzerland up as the absolute model of perfection, despite the fact that they never wished to return.
Or my great aunt, who always flew the Union Jack and sang God Save the Queen after formal dinners.
Something about living in exile.
I know, the US looks better to me now, as well...
from offshore.
PICHARDO, has it ever crossed your mind, or what passes for one, that nosensical replies can be condensed into shorter passages? your posting is a textbook in how to use non sequiturs to attempt to make a point. color me baffled, since i have no idea of what the heck you are trying to say.
You make many fine points, Chirimoya. As a US citizen I can tell you that the nation is deeply divided. The most fanatically religious states are also the poorest and least educated. The question that arises then is: does religiosity make people poor and uneducated or do the poor and uneducated tranquilize themselves with religion? I say both. It's a vicious cycle.
I think that there is a huge difference between Protestant countries and Catholic countries in terms of self starting... etc.. The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
i offered up that link, just so people can take a look at the experiences of a foreigner living here for a while. he wrote an article on FATALISM, the entity which PICHARDO says does not exist here. if it does not, i wonder what animated the author to observe that he did.
Investiga primero. Tal vez aprendas algo. Luego puedes lanzarme insultos.
pollogringo, some people in this world have an aversion to reality. you give him the results of a scientific study, he calls it rubbish. do not lose time debating such mindsets.
The Evil American Imperialist Anti-Dominican League. They hold meetings every second Wednesday in a batey near you. They're mostly Americans that fall in love with RD but then strangely express frustration about why progress comes so slowly to such a beautiful place so rich in natural resources and noble people. They lament what they see- that the biggest abusers of hard-working Dominicans are other Dominicans- corrupt officials, deadbeat dads, unscrupulous prestamistas, thieving relatives, violent men, etc. But they observe a reluctance to fight the status quo. Where's that come from? The belief that Someone either wants it that way or will be along very shortly to fix it. (If I've seen one "Cristo viene" painted on the side of the road from SD to Santiago I've seen a hundred.)
