Interesting Article on DR in Miami Herald

[lajackael]

I am an African American who has lived in Santiago for more then two years. I experience
what "looks like resentment" only when I say "no hablo espanol". Most of the
people "then" think I am Haitian. When introduced as an American by my Dominican/American wife I have never experienced
negative vibes. Maybe its a social step ladder when I speak English. I do know when I go around
Santiago dressed in jeans and trying to avoid being a "target". I find that
I am scrutinized very closely in stores.
Being retired military, I stick to myself. I was stationed in Germany and Holland for 10 years(meaning I am used to adapting to other cultures).

I came here to enjoy the sun, have fun and smell the roses. I don't look for the negative. And since I don't speak fluent Spanish I wouldn't know if someone was calling me a name.

 

[mountainannie]

Publication?

. . . for speaking out against perpetuating stereotypes! It's one thing if it's true objective information, but to write about it like it's the norm and is all ok ... And too many kids today believe that if something is in print, it's "the truth":ermm:

You know nothing probably will happen to her. She got a publication out of it. It counts toward her tenure, so in the university?s eyes, it's all good. But then . . . the office of diversity - depending on who's running the show, they might raise their eyebrows.

I'd like to know what kind of response you get. Thx.

vegasdiva

No - even in the most liberal of institutions, a quote in a newspaper article is not considered a "publication" that counts toward tenure. Those must be scholarly articles, with proper peer review. This sort of publicity - especially with the racist overtones - will definitely count against her.

I anticipate that there will be some response (perhaps just hopeful). Edwidge Dandicat, a great contemporary Haitian American author, also wrote to the professor, the Provost and the director of the Affirmative Action and Cultural Diversity Section.

If anyone wants to write, send me a PM and I will forward the email addresses.

 

[Mirador]

I am an African American who has lived in Santiago for more then two years. I experience
what "looks like resentment" ...QUOTE]


Lajackael, chill out, you've only been in the country two years, as you say, not enough to interpret typical Dominican gestures. However, I can assure you, what "looks like resentment" is most surely another emotion. The real fun is finding out what the typical Dominicans actually think about you. How about starting with learning some Spanish? Even old dogs learn new tricks

 

[Chip00]

I am an African American who has lived in Santiago for more then two years. I experience
what "looks like resentment" only when I say "no hablo espanol". Most of the
people "then" think I am Haitian. When introduced as an American by my Dominican/American wife I have never experienced
negative vibes. Maybe its a social step ladder when I speak English. I do know when I go around
Santiago dressed in jeans and trying to avoid being a "target". I find that
I am scrutinized very closely in stores.
Being retired military, I stick to myself. I was stationed in Germany and Holland for 10 years(meaning I am used to adapting to other cultures).

I came here to enjoy the sun, have fun and smell the roses. I don't look for the negative. And since I don't speak fluent Spanish I wouldn't know if someone was calling me a name.

Welcome to Santiago. Please read the forums to learn as much as possible about the DR. Yes there is prejudice here, as in every part of the world, but not on the level that one sees in the US nor Europe.

While there is an animosity towards Haitians from the many Dominicans (not unlike the situation with the Mexicans back home) however, it is still different because it is not uncommon to find Dominicans and Haitians spending their free time together. It is certainly a more complex dynamic for sure - mostly rooted in the common turbulent history that the Dominicans share.

Therefore it might be understandable that you would be treated different if you are perceived to be Haitian by your looks and attire. Just remember this isn't about race but about the "Haitian - Dominican" thing" as you know there are many Domincans that are virtually indistinguishable from Haitians.

Also, I'm ex military as well and served in the Army in Kaiserslautern. If you play golf send me or Hillbilly a pm as the golf course here isn't that bad and it's cheap, especially if you walk(US$10).

Also, I highly recommend that you learn Spanish as I think it will help you to a great extent to enjoy your life here. I started from scratch at 34 and am able to get along with most - so it can be done.

 

[Ricardo900]

I agree with the social standing theory. If I had a nickel for everytime a Dominican here in NYC and overthere in Santiago ask me what I do for a living, I would be rich. Dominicans are more concerned with your status in society and what kind of person you are than the color of your skin. If you notice Dominicans are very self-conscious on how they appear to others and how others appear to them. If you carry yourself as a gentleman or lady you'll be treated as such.

Oh yeah, when you cut off a Dominican when he's talking to you with a "No hablo espanol", is considered a slap in the face as it appears you don't want to talk to them. They'll respect you more if you even give a little effort in trying to learn their language.

Mi dos centavos

 

[vegasdiva]

is it not speaking Spanish or wearing jeans?

I am an African American who has lived in Santiago for more then two years. I experience
what "looks like resentment" only when I say "no hablo espanol".

Lajackael, You've lived there 2 years and still don't speak Spanish? And you have experience living in other cultures? I thought it was a rule that the immigrant or visitor adapt to the host culture, and one of the primary ways to do that is to use their language, dress appropriate to the culture. Even if you don't speak it very well I've heard most natives (of any country) appreciate the visitor's attempt to learn their ways.

One of the reasons I've heard for resentment against Mexicans in the southwest US - at least places like Las Vegas, LA, Tucson - is because so many will not use or learn English. Why would they have to? It's too easy here to only frequent businesses, watch TV, listen to radio, read newspapers in Spanish only.

I do know when I go around
Santiago dressed in jeans and trying to avoid being a "target". I find that
I am scrutinized very closely in stores.

So, I'm trying to learn the DR culture, and I don't get this statement. Are you scrutinized because you don't know Spanish? or because you only speak English? I don't think I could survive in Higuey if I only spoke English. Not too many people would have a clue and neither would I. My Spanish isn't all that, but it's enough to do what i need to do and even socialize.

Are jeans not acceptable? Somewhere else I read not to wear shorts either. And of course your'e not gonna wear dressy clothes. Then what are you supposed to wear?

 

[vegasdiva]

oops, I didn't read carefully

No - even in the most liberal of institutions, a quote in a newspaper article is not considered a "publication" that counts toward tenure. Those must be scholarly articles, with proper peer review. This sort of publicity - especially with the racist overtones - will definitely count against her.

I'm sorry. I wasn't paying attn. I thought this Dr. was the author of the article. Recently, tenure has been denied in some cases because of an expressed attitude. But ACLU jumps in and says it's all free speech. It'll be interesting to see the fallout in this situation.

 

[mountainannie]

The response I received from the two professors

Dear Ms. Roebling,

I am attaching fyi the letter I sent to the Miami Herald Editor
yesterday, along with the letter Dr. Hernandez sent. They have not
published our responses, for reasons they have not shared with us.
Please feel free to circulate our responses.

To the editor:

The comments attributed to me in your article of June 13, “Black
Denial,” are a shockingly simplistic and distorted misrepresentation
both of the research I presented at the Dominican Studies Institute in
the fall of 2006, for which Ms. Robles was present, and of the
interview
I granted her afterwards.

I explained at length to Ms. Robles the argument in my forthcoming
book, Black Behind the Ears: Dominican Identity from Museums to Beauty
Shops (Duke University Press, 2007) -- that racial formations in the
Dominican Republic and among Dominicans in New York and Washington,
D.C.
are the product the country’s historic relationships to Spain, Haiti,
and the United States, and of its people’s persistently disadvantaged
and vulnerable position in the hemisphere’s economic order.

In lieu of engaging any of that research, the article resorts to facile
attributions of self-hatred, denial or social pathology to Dominicans
as
whole. The reality – historic and contemporary – is far more
complex
than that.

It is sadly troubling that Ms. Robles’ piece failed to convey that
complexity and instead repeated sensationalist and tired stereotypes.

Ginetta E.B. Candelario
Associate Professor
Sociology and
Latin American & Latina/o Studies
Program for the Study of Women and Gender Committee Member
Smith College
Northampton, MA 01063
Tel: (413) 585-3454
Fax: (413) 585-3554


"The fact that we can easily say the things about which they, out of
understandable fear, must keep silent almost imposes on us the duty of
saying them. The silences they leave, we have the power to fill."
Silvio Torres-Saillant, 2005

To the Editor:

The portrayal of the views attributed to me in your article of June
13,
“Black Denial,” is utterly false, and absolutely opposed not only
to what I
believe, but also to what I have dedicated my professional life to
changing.
In fact, the interview “quoted” in this article took place
immediately after
a lecture by Professor Ginetta Candelario on “Black Behind the Ears:
Blackness in Dominican Identity from Museums to Beauty Shops” at the
Dominican Studies Institute (cosponsored by the CUNY Institute for
Research
on the African Diaspora in the Americas and the Caribbean), designed
to
address the issue of Dominican identity.

The most charitable interpretation of the attribution of these
completely
offensive and inexcusable remarks to me is that the reporter conflated
my
characterization of racist attitudes that unfortunately still exist
among
some Dominicans with my own opinions. They are not -- and I very
much
regret and resent that they were credited to me.

abrazos,
ramona
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramona Hernández, Ph.D.
Director, CUNY Dominican Studies Institute &
Professor of Sociology
The City College of New York
Convent Avenue at 138th Street
New York, NY 10031
Tel. (212) 650-7496
Fax (212) 650-7489



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[corsair74]

Sad, but true.

The fact of the matter is, race (and skin color) is a huge issue here in the states. Always has been. And as far as we have come, I don't see it getting significantly better in the future. It may have something to do with the huge "melting pot of cultures" that we have here in the states. But I think that it has more to do with the fact that we are constantly reminded of race. It's on every job application you fill out, every census form, etc. The US goes out of it's way to let you know that you are afro-american, asian american, hispanic american, and so forth.

And sadly, such distinctions have an impact on the opportunities you are afforded here. As a political science major in college, I performed a study in my statistics class. Part of my findings was that race, along with education, had a significant impact on personal income, thus social status. It's not really a secret. And I believe that the powers that be (the drafters of those aforementioned government forms) use it as a means of maintaining the status quo.

So how do we deal with it? Most of us choose to embrace our heritage and seek strength and support in our racial identity. I remember being perplexed when a recent dominican immigrant told me "I am not black, I'm dominican". We are just not used to that way of thinking here in the states. Hell, I even moved to a different part of the country in order to be around more afro americans.

Unfortunately we often bring that attitude with us when we visit other countries. I personally enjoy being in the DR because I love being around so many people who look like me. Not to say that I don't enjoy being around people of other races and cultures. But the DR will always have a special place in my heart.

The author of the article that started this thread is a product of the racially charged atmosphere that we have here. Such writings make for popular reading in the states. Maybe some here simply long to find similar dysfunction in other cultures. Who knows?

I say kudos to dominicans and their national identity. It's a very beautiful thing.

Nos vemos despues.

Vince.

 

[Chip00]

Most of us choose to embrace our heritage and seek strength and support in our racial identity.

You hit the nail on the head. The US will always be have the problem of racism as long as this attitude is prevalent. I don't see it going away any time soon as it is just too damn politally correct.

It may seem at first a good thing to talk about the value of one's "race" and one's heritage but like most things there is a limit. On one extreme is not knowing where one came from (which is like a lot of Dominicans and they don't seem to be lacking) and the other extreme is what Hitler did - which is ironically very similar to the above quote about "seeking" strength in one's heritage. Again, people should not judge their personal value based on the fact that their ancestors were from central Africa or Europe or Timbuktu - there is only one human race after all.

I'm sure this is one reason people find it so refreshing to visit places like the DR, where one can see people of all colors married and spending time together outside of work. I can't begin to describe how nice it is for me to be able to have friends, black as night and whiter than me here in the DR and NEVER, EVER have to listen to somebody talk about "race", not even in jest. Oh how happy I am!!!!

 

[corsair74]

Yes and no.

You hit the nail on the head. The US will always be have the problem of racism as long as this attitude is prevalent. I don't see it going away any time soon as it is just too damn politally correct.

It may seem at first a good thing to talk about the value of one's "race" and one's heritage but like most things there is a limit. On one extreme is not knowing where one came from (which is like a lot of Dominicans and they don't seem to be lacking) and the other extreme is what Hitler did - which is ironically very similar to the above quote about "seeking" strength in one's heritage. Again, people should not judge their personal value based on the fact that their ancestors were from central Africa or Europe or Timbuktu - there is only one human race after all.

I'm sure this is one reason people find it so refreshing to visit places like the DR, where one can see people of all colors married and spending time together outside of work. I can't begin to describe how nice it is for me to be able to have friends, black as night and whiter than me here in the DR and NEVER, EVER have to listen to somebody talk about "race", not even in jest. Oh how happy I am!!!!

I agree with most of what you said. The US will always have a problem as long as it chooses it's power structure with race in consideration. But I have to disagree with your statement about Hitler's agenda.

Hitler didn't just advocate racial identity. He believed in racial superiority, and sought to impose his beliefs on the rest of the world. That is VERY different than what I'm referring to.

I'm referring to a group of people's search for a heritage and racial identity that was actively denied them. I'm talking about finding pride and strength in the accomplishments of your ancestors. There are many here in the states who know absolutely nothing about their family history. And I also personally know US citizens, usually from european stock, who can trace their ancestry back for centuries. If you can do this, then I can understand why you misunderstood my post. You are very fortunate. Believe it or not, some of us have had to actively search for this knowledge.

 

[Chip00]

I agree with most of what you said. The US will always have a problem as long as it chooses it's power structure with race in consideration. But I have to disagree with your statement about Hitler's agenda.

Hitler didn't just advocate racial identity. He believed in racial superiority, and sought to impose his beliefs on the rest of the world. That is VERY different than what I'm referring to.

I'm referring to a group of people's search for a heritage and racial identity that was actively denied them. I'm talking about finding pride and strength in the accomplishments of your ancestors. There are many here in the states who know absolutely nothing about their family history. And I also personally know US citizens, usually from european stock, who can trace their ancestry back for centuries. If you can do this, then I can understand why you misunderstood my post. You are very fortunate. Believe it or not, some of us have had to actively search for this knowledge.

Honestly I just found out where my ancestors came from and it never really mattered to me anyway. I was raised as a Catholic and was taught that my worth came from the fact that God made me -I am nothing special because some of my ancestors were white - nothing special at all. In fact race was not discussed in our house at all and if we repeated what was said in the public schools about what some white kids said about blacks we had to fear as ass whipping for sure.

You obviously have a "western" point of view towards race and it would take a minor miracle IMO for people like you to change. I truly feel sorry for you.

I will say it again - your color has nothing to do with your value as a person - I can assure you that when you are in front of the Creator of all that you color will have nothing to do with your judgement.

Take care

 

[Chris]

Believe it or not, some of us have had to actively search for this knowledge.

OK, first, race is not an issue that we discuss on the boards. But, we've been doing well so far on this thread and I'm willing to push the envelope as long as we can keep it clean. (Yes, the boss knows that he can fire me if he wishes :cheeky

The quoted statement caught my interest and the following is simply my opinion. Like Chip, race was not a 'dinner table conversation' in my upbringing. But what was dinner table conversation, was a real inculcation of the fear of who-ever looked different and was different. This included the fear of the 'red danger', i.e, China, the fear of communism, the fear of socialism, and anything outside of 'The Pure Race' (a little German influence there....). (The US and Canadians and ones from the UK can put into this the fear of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Cold War .. etc., etc.) I was born as a part of the fortunate white few and it went without saying that G-d blessed us very special few a whole lot more than others). Obviously all of this made a huge impact but when I started getting my head together, at about the age of 23 or so, things started looking different. And I became part of whoever opposed the regime. (The Communists, The Socialists, The Red Danger - anybody and everybody in opposition). But then, we were in an extra-ordinary circumstances, a completely insane experiment with people.

So, back to the 'actively searching for this knowledge'. I truly feel that once there is nothing in life that compels one or teaches one to start searching for racial background in order to specifically find identity, and once there is an acceptance of people as they are, only then will the problem go away. Identity is not to be found in ancestry. Statistics and the governments of the day are just too close to the power game to pay heed to that thing. Hence, on every silly form that one ever has to complete, you have to declare 'what you are'. From many years ago to today, I've put 'human' or 'homo sapiens' on forms. If anyone questions me, I ask very seriously for the 'technical term' for a baboon ... because that is what I will fill in if they do not accept 'Human'. If they give me tick-boxes, I tick 'none of the above'! So, I guess I will die a rebel against the establishment or the status quo if that twists humanity.

 

[corsair74]

Huh? I'll try this again.

Honestly I just found out where my ancestors came from and it never really mattered to me anyway. I was raised as a Catholic and was taught that my worth came from the fact that God made me -I am nothing special because some of my ancestors were white - nothing special at all. In fact race was not discussed in our house at all and if we repeated what was said in the public schools about what some white kids said about blacks we had to fear as ass whipping for sure.

You obviously have a "western" point of view towards race and it would take a minor miracle IMO for people like you to change. I truly feel sorry for you.

I will say it again - your color has nothing to do with your value as a person - I can assure you that when you are in front of the Creator of all that you color will have nothing to do with your judgement.

Take care

Once more, you've misunderstood me.

First, you quote me and state that my comments are typical of Hitler's way of thinking. And then you assume that I'm an individual who thinks that my self-worth is dependant upon race. I challenge you to REREAD my posts and indicate where I said any of these things. Frankly, I find it amazing that you think so poorly of me on the basis of a few posts which you CLEARLY misread. I don't know whether to be amused or offended.

Therefore, I will try once more to clarify my comments. When I speak about embracing one's heritage and racial identity, I'm simply talking about a search for knowledge and history, not self validation. In every culture, knowledge of one's family history is a valuable thing. Not everyone wants to be ignorant of such things. Haven't you ever heard the saying "to move forward, one must first know where they've been."

I've already stated that I have a westerner's view about race. And I acknowledge that It is something that I want to work on. But I think you should know that you too possess a western attitude. The typical touchiness and apprehension that some westerners get when matters of race are discussed. That much is evidenced by the way you insist on mischaracterizing my comments, even though I've made them as clearly as I know how.

You say that you feel sorry for me. I really appreciate your concern, if it is indeed heartfelt. But I think that it is misplaced. I base my self-worth on my own accomplishments. And I will happily continue to explore my family history and racial identity.

Vince.

 

[Chris]

I base my self-worth on my own accomplishments. And I will happily continue to explore my family history and racial identity.
Vince.

And that is cool! Let's leave a little space here for others who are still grappling with the issue. It does not cost much :knockedou

 

[Chip00]

Once more, you've misunderstood me.

First, you quote me and state that my comments are typical of Hitler's way of thinking. And then you assume that I'm an individual who thinks that my self-worth is dependant upon race. I challenge you to REREAD my posts and indicate where I said any of these things. Frankly, I find it amazing that you think so poorly of me on the basis of a few posts which you CLEARLY misread. I don't know whether to be amused or offended.

Therefore, I will try once more to clarify my comments. When I speak about embracing one's heritage and racial identity, I'm simply talking about a search for knowledge and history, not self validation. In every culture, knowledge of one's family history is a valuable thing. Not everyone wants to be ignorant of such things. Haven't you ever heard the saying "to move forward, one must first know where they've been."

I've already stated that I have a westerner's view about race. And I acknowledge that It is something that I want to work on. But I think you should know that you too possess a western attitude. The typical touchiness and apprehension that some westerners get when matters of race are discussed. That much is evidenced by the way you insist on mischaracterizing my comments, even though I've made them as clearly as I know how.

You say that you feel sorry for me. I really appreciate your concern, if it is indeed heartfelt. But I think that it is misplaced. I base my self-worth on my own accomplishments. And I will happily continue to explore my family history and racial identity.

Vince.

Vince

First of I wasn't comparing you to Hitler but making an example of one extreme.

Also, let me make it clear that I just prefer that race and one's heritage not be given much value with respect to one's personal wealth. Yes I have a somewhat "western" viewpoint for sure even though I grew up in a "raceless" Catholic family with my best friend being American Indian and going to a private school with kids of all color. However, after I was introduced to the "real" world via public school in the Southeast US I can tell you that the focus on race by blacks and whites is more divisive/destructive than edifying. The point I'm trying to get across is that most Americans don't realize this and I feel sorry for them that they can't experience a world "without" color.

If you think this is so crazy I challenge you to ask Dominicans about this and you will be surprised to find that most have never even bothered to think about this and even much less where their ancestors came from - and they don't seem to be lacking at all. Ignorance(to one's heritage) is bliss is what I say.

 

[tflea]

After 10 p.m.

Always more interesting the responses after 10 p.m. isn't it. Tell it like it is.
cheers:bunny::bunny:

 

[vegasdiva]

agreed!

Vince

I can tell you that the focus on race by blacks and whites is more divisive/destructive than edifying. The point I'm trying to get across is that most Americans don't realize this and I feel sorry for them that they can't experience a world "without" color.

If you think this is so crazy I challenge you to ask Dominicans about this and you will be surprised to find that most have never even bothered to think about this and even much less where their ancestors came from - and they don't seem to be lacking at all. Ignorance(to one's heritage) is bliss is what I say.

I agree! For what it?s worth, you?ve articulated my own impressions of americans and dominicans-in-their-own-country. I?ll add that this american obsession with differences and superiority-inferiority, when displayed to others around the world, is unfortunate and is what gives us a bad name. Further, many immigrants to the US, end up assimilating to the american way of thinking of race. Sad.

I like Chris? idea. I?m homo sapien. Can?t we all just get along?