Jovenel Moïse is a dictator at this point...

Naked_Snake

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Dandicat speaks of the lines drawn in 1929. Are you on the same page?
Somehow I don't think so. The intelligentsia over there is generally divided between two camps: a. The one that thinks they got the short end of the stick in 1929 and should have gotten exactly half of the island (which would put the current line past the lakes up to Duarte's Peak in the center, Barahona to the south and Puerto Plata to the north., and b. What I call the "Haitian Lebensraum" (C'est une et indivisible) party, as in, the DR has no business in existing and Haiti should continue to aim at having the seas as its only borders.
 

NanSanPedro

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My dearest Haitian friend (I am Godmother to her son) says it this way - "Haitians are 80% Catholic, 20% Protestant, 100% Voudousants".

The Protestant Evangelicals ,who are the primary missionaries in Haiti, are generally not accepting of other religions.

The Roman Catholics conquered Latin America by simply overlaying the faces of their saints onto any existing gods that they found. In the DR, there is still a strong strain of Santeria. The Dominican government, which I believe still has a Concordat with the Roman Catholic Church (?), makes a great effort to repress the Rada - only really letting it fully onto the streets on Fat Tuesday. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Vudú.

I met a couple of young Americans who were teaching at a Protestant school up near Jarabacoa and they expressed a certain dismay that those who were running the place seemed intent on converting Catholics to Protestants as if the former were not, in fact, Christians at all.

Understand completely. I was raised Catholic and became non-denominational in my early 40's. I never could understand why other Christians in Haiti would try and convert to "our brand" of Christianity. I was in a decided minority there, but if someone told me "m yon batis" oubyen "m yon catolik" I left them alone. I would sometimes ask if they're happy at their church and if they were, I was happy too.

Voudon of course was another story!
 
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USA DOC

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The question was is Jovenel-Moise a Dictator.....well I think no....Moise doesnt do any thing with the Government of Haiti, Except fill his pockets with Haities money...........
 
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mountainannie

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The question was is Jovenel-Moise a Dictator.....well I think no....Moise doesnt do any thing with the Government of Haiti, Except fill his pockets with Haities money...........
 

mountainannie

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Somehow I don't think so. The intelligentsia over there is generally divided between two camps: a. The one that thinks they got the short end of the stick in 1929 and should have gotten exactly half of the island (which would put the current line past the lakes up to Duarte's Peak in the center, Barahona to the south and Puerto Plata to the north., and b. What I call the "Haitian Lebensraum" (C'est une et indivisible) party, as in, the DR has no business in existing and Haiti should continue to aim at having the seas as its only borders.
Dandicat is not "over there" - She is "over here" - where - perhaps the most important discussions on the future of Haiti are happening.. I have heard Dominicans speak of the idea that Haiti ought to control the entire island - but since I got on the ground there in 2002 - I never heard or read of the idea from one Haitian. Sweet Mickey did a really bad interview with Nuria where he was just showing off that he could speak in Spanish and so completely MisSpoke about interIsland TRADE which caused a whole KerFluffle... I sent him a note via a friend to NEVER again speak to ANYONE from the DR w/out a trusted translator.
 
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AlterEgo

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Dandicat is not "over there" - She is "over here" - where - perhaps the most important discussions on the future of Haiti are happening.. I have heard Dominicans speak of the idea that Haiti ought to control the entire island - but since I got on the ground there in 2002 - I never heard or read of the idea from one Haitian. Sweet Mickey did a really bad interview with Nuria where he was just showing off that he could speak in Spanish and so completely MisSpoke about interIsland TRADE which caused a whole KerFluffle... I sent him a note via a friend to NEVER again speak to ANYONE from the DR w/out a trusted translator.
I’ve never ever heard a Dominican say Haiti ought to control the island????? But I wish I had a dollar for every Dominican who’s said they think Haiti wants to take over DR. They don’t think it will happen, but they think they want that
 
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NanSanPedro

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I’ve never ever heard a Dominican say Haiti ought to control the island????? But I wish I had a dollar for every Dominican who’s said they think Haiti wants to take over DR. They don’t think it will happen, but they think they want that

I have never heard one Haitian say that. In fact, I would bet $12.45 that the exact opposite is much more true. They have an ultra screwed up government and they know the one here, while flawed, is much better than they have. Why would they want to export their government so that the whole island is worse off?
 

AlterEgo

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I have never heard one Haitian say that. In fact, I would bet $12.45 that the exact opposite is much more true. They have an ultra screwed up government and they know the one here, while flawed, is much better than they have. Why would they want to export their government so that the whole island is worse off?
I didn’t say Haiti wants that...... but some Dominicans think they do. Maybe because of their history, I don’t know.
 
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NanSanPedro

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I didn’t say Haiti wants that...... but some Dominicans think they do. Maybe because of their history, I don’t know.
I understand. But to me, it makes no sense and doubt it's true of any Haitian.
 

Naked_Snake

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I’ve never ever heard a Dominican say Haiti ought to control the island????? But I wish I had a dollar for every Dominican who’s said they think Haiti wants to take over DR. They don’t think it will happen, but they think they want that
The lates Leslie Manigat and Guy Alexandre, along with other likeminded fellows, wanted an Haitian political bloc to form here (as in, Haitian descendants here acting as an Haitian lobby and/or party), which if it gets to happen it would end up acomplishing exactly that. Haitians here certainly have enough numbers to politically organize, I'd say even more than Muslims in Europe, what they have lacked so far is a capable leadership to make that come true. At the point they are here I'd say that, if they acted in concert like some lobbies do in the States, they could certainly swing elections.
 

mountainannie

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I’ve never ever heard a Dominican say Haiti ought to control the island????? But I wish I had a dollar for every Dominican who’s said they think Haiti wants to take over DR. They don’t think it will happen, but they think they want that
I got tangled up in words ---to clarify- Edwidge Dandicat lives here in Florida. I have never heard a HAITIan say that they ought/ want to control the Island - I have ONLY heard Dominicans say that. All that I have ever heard from Haitians about the DR was focused on the issue of citizenship/cedulas etc for the sugar cane workers/ Batey... all the Sonia Pierre stuff. Haitians rarely mention the DR except in an historical context - about the "perijil" Trujillo massacre, about how Guy Philippe - trained and supported by the US - supposedly "invaded" from the DR. Yada Yada... Honestly - it was really so Very Exhausting listening to them spew horrible stuff about one another. There was a lovely respite after the earthquake when the DR went to the rescue of Haiti - but it all started up again with the cedilla/citizenship stuff. I always tried to write stories that put the DR in a positive light vis a vis Haiti and I was hoping for a positive ending to that story - so I could file. But there wasn't one - and so I couldn't - and so I left.
 
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Naked_Snake

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The question was is Jovenel-Moise a Dictator.....well I think no....Moise doesnt do any thing with the Government of Haiti, Except fill his pockets with Haities money...........
I wonder how loyal the National Police would be to him in the event of serious social unrest (as in, days of continuing, non-stop street fighting between them and protesters). That would be a way to gauge how much power he has.
 
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mountainannie

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I remember on one of my first trips down to the southern border - doing this story - http://www.ipsnews.net/2007/11/haiti-dominican-republic-one-market-two-separate-worlds/. I was essentially collapsed to the verge of tears having breakfast at a place in Pedernales when I saw an SUV from PLAN international - I pretty much ran up to the man and threw myself into his arms - collapsing in tears. He was an absolutely wonderful Dominican - took me right over to his air conditioned office, said he understood Completely - and No Wonder I Was Upset with All This Back and Forth and animosity between the two ... A fabulous man - Ramon Mateo. I spent lots of happy times in Pedernales after meeting him! Plus meeting some really great young women who were Peace Corps volunteers. If you have NOT seen Pedernales - and been across to Anse a Pitres - it is a wonderful trip. There is a ferry from Anse a Pitres to Jacmel but it is overnight and pretty rough going I have heard... but certainly a back packers dream!
 
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mountainannie

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( posted the entire article - don't know if just posting the link would work as WaPo has a paywall) Don't know if the live links in the article will work from here...
Haiti plunged deeper into a constitutional crisis on Monday, with rival claims to the presidency, allegations of a coup attempt and police deployed to the Supreme Court.
The political chaos in the Western Hemisphere’s poorest country threatened to further undermine its teetering democracy, as fears mounted that the warring factions and their proxies — including the street gangs who control large swaths of Port-au-Prince, the capital — could push long-simmering violence to new levels.

“We are witnessing the making of a Somalia in the Americas,” said Ralph P. Chevry, a board member of the Haiti Center for Socio Economic Policy in Port-au-Prince.
In Haiti, coronavirus and a man named Barbecue test the rule of law
On Monday, opponents seeking to end the rule of President Jovenel Moïse declared Supreme Court Judge Joseph Mécène Jean-Louis as interim president. The move came a day after Moïse said authorities had arrested 23 people linked to a failed coup to install a different Supreme Court judge, Yvcikel Dabresil. Dabresil was arrested early Sunday.

“The coup failed,” Foreign Minister Claude Joseph told The Washington Post on Monday. “To our brothers in the opposition, our message is: Be patient. Wait your turn and use legal means.”
The sides are embroiled in a long-running dispute over the length of Moïse’s term. The opposition says it ended Sunday. Moïse says he has another year.
Image without a caption

Journalists gather outside the Supreme Court of Haiti in the nearly empty streets of Port-au-Prince on Monday. (Valerie Baeriswyl/AFP/Getty Images)
Moïse, 52, was elected to a five-year term that was supposed to begin in 2016. His claim to more time is based on a year-long delay in his taking office amid disputed election results.
Moïse dissolved parliament in January 2020 and has been ruling by decree ever since. Opponents see a dictator in the making.
The crisis is an early foreign policy test for President Biden. Moïse was viewed favorably by the Trump administration, in part due to his willingness to stand with Washington against Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro.
Haiti has a tragic history of disasters. Will covid-19 be next?
The State Department under Biden, the United Nations and the Organization of American States have backed Moïse’s view of his departure date. But a State Department spokesperson expressed caution on Monday: “We understand the Haitian National Police is investigating 23 individuals who were arrested over the weekend. The situation remains murky, and we await the results of the police investigation.”
The spokesperson added a call for legislative elections “as soon as technically feasible, followed by 2021 presidential elections.”
Image without a caption

National police take detained demonstrators to a police station in Port-au-Prince on Sunday. (Dieu Nalio Chery/AP)
A group of U.S. lawmakers, meanwhile, has joined the opposition in demanding Moïse step down. In a letter to Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Saturday, House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Gregory W. Meeks (D-N.Y.) and six colleagues called on the United States to “unambiguously reject any attempt by President Moïse to retain power.”
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Rep. Darren Soto (D-Fla.) said the group was pushing for a “more aggressive message” in response to concerns of the Haitian diaspora in the United States. But he said he “understood” the new administration needed to maintain a working relationship with Moïse to mediate “free and fair elections.”
Daily protests are paralyzing Haiti. Here’s why.
Image without a caption

Protesters demand the resignation of Haitian President Jovenel Moïse on Sunday in Port-au-Prince. (Valerie Baeriswyl/AFP/Getty Images)
Haitians harbored doubts about the alleged coup. Andre Michel, spokesman for the opposition Democratic and Popular Sector, called it “a big joke.” He said the opposition would continue to press for Moïse to step down.
“In the coming hours and days, the mobilization will continue for the installation of the new president,” he said.
The government alleged a plot involving a senior judge and police officials. “They wanted to have the president killed, and then they would enter the palace with the Supreme Court judge, Yvickel Dabresil,” Joseph, the foreign minister, said. “It was a conspiracy.”
Image without a caption

Police confront protesters Sunday in Port-au-Prince. (Jean Marc Herve Abelard/EPA-EFE/Shutterstock)
Joseph forwarded recordings to The Post that have circulated widely on Haitian social media. They are said to capture a coup plotter discussing plans with the head of palace security.
AD

Armed Haitian police were patrolling the entrance of the Supreme Court on Monday. Joseph said they were there to “protect” justices from potential attacks.
15 babies and children died in a fire at a group home in Haiti run by a U.S. church
Moïse addressed the nation from the Port-au-Prince airport on Sunday. “The dream of those people was an attempt on my life,” he said. He said he was not a “dictator,” but a democrat.
Civil society groups critical of Moïse have been calling for a transitional government in Haiti for months. Human rights activists and others say his government has ties to street gangs that have been terrorizing the nation. In June, witnesses in Port-au-Prince claimed to have seen gang members ride in the armored vehicles used by the national police and special security forces. Moïse’s government denies the charges and says it is fighting the gangs.
Image without a caption

Protesters burn tires in Port-au-Prince on Sunday. (Jean Marc Herve Abelard/EPA-EFE/Shutterstock)
One faction of the divided opposition named Jean-Louis, 72, interim president. In a video address, the judge said he had “accepted the choice of the opposition and civil society to serve the country as interim president for the transition.” Moïse’s justice minister called the man a “usurper” who was violating the law.
U.N. peacekeepers fathered, then abandoned, hundreds of children in Haiti, report says
Few nations are as vulnerable as Haiti. The country has suffered decades of misery, shedding the yoke of the Duvalier father-then-son dictatorships in the 1980s only to suffer the failure of repeated efforts to lift its population out of dehumanizing poverty.
AD

The 2010 earthquake that killed more than 200,000 Haitians and left 1.5 million homeless brought an avalanche of international organizations and promises, finally, of transformative aid. But many of the charities have since departed, the transformation unrealized, leaving a mix of resentment and hopelessness as the country has teetered on the verge of anarchy.

Andre Paultre in Port-au-Prince contributed to this report.
 

Caonabo

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Dandicat is not "over there" - She is "over here" - where - perhaps the most important discussions on the future of Haiti are happening.. I have heard Dominicans speak of the idea that Haiti ought to control the entire island - but since I got on the ground there in 2002 - I never heard or read of the idea from one Haitian. Sweet Mickey did a really bad interview with Nuria where he was just showing off that he could speak in Spanish and so completely MisSpoke about interIsland TRADE which caused a whole KerFluffle... I sent him a note via a friend to NEVER again speak to ANYONE from the DR w/out a trusted translator.
WHAT?!?!?!?
You make this statement on the eve of 27 de Febrero? :oops: :sick:🤮
I have purposely avoided responding to your postings due to our previous documented disagreements, but this statement in itself just shows how far removed you are from REALITY within the RD, and IT'S history!
I will move on now. No further words, as I am a respectful gentleman.
What a folly. Unbelievable.
 
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rfp

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( posted the entire article - don't know if just posting the link would work as WaPo has a paywall) Don't know if the live links in the article will work from here...
Haiti plunged deeper into a constitutional crisis on Monday, with rival claims to the presidency, allegations of a coup attempt and police deployed to the Supreme Court.
The political chaos in the Western Hemisphere’s poorest country threatened to further undermine its teetering democracy, as fears mounted that the warring factions and their proxies — including the street gangs who control large swaths of Port-au-Prince, the capital — could push long-simmering violence to new levels.

“We are witnessing the making of a Somalia in the Americas,” said Ralph P. Chevry, a board member of the Haiti Center for Socio Economic Policy in Port-au-Prince.
In Haiti, coronavirus and a man named Barbecue test the rule of law
On Monday, opponents seeking to end the rule of President Jovenel Moïse declared Supreme Court Judge Joseph Mécène Jean-Louis as interim president. The move came a day after Moïse said authorities had arrested 23 people linked to a failed coup to install a different Supreme Court judge, Yvcikel Dabresil. Dabresil was arrested early Sunday.

“The coup failed,” Foreign Minister Claude Joseph told The Washington Post on Monday. “To our brothers in the opposition, our message is: Be patient. Wait your turn and use legal means.”
The sides are embroiled in a long-running dispute over the length of Moïse’s term. The opposition says it ended Sunday. Moïse says he has another year.
Image without a caption

Journalists gather outside the Supreme Court of Haiti in the nearly empty streets of Port-au-Prince on Monday. (Valerie Baeriswyl/AFP/Getty Images)
Moïse, 52, was elected to a five-year term that was supposed to begin in 2016. His claim to more time is based on a year-long delay in his taking office amid disputed election results.
Moïse dissolved parliament in January 2020 and has been ruling by decree ever since. Opponents see a dictator in the making.
The crisis is an early foreign policy test for President Biden. Moïse was viewed favorably by the Trump administration, in part due to his willingness to stand with Washington against Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro.
Haiti has a tragic history of disasters. Will covid-19 be next?
The State Department under Biden, the United Nations and the Organization of American States have backed Moïse’s view of his departure date. But a State Department spokesperson expressed caution on Monday: “We understand the Haitian National Police is investigating 23 individuals who were arrested over the weekend. The situation remains murky, and we await the results of the police investigation.”
The spokesperson added a call for legislative elections “as soon as technically feasible, followed by 2021 presidential elections.”
Image without a caption

National police take detained demonstrators to a police station in Port-au-Prince on Sunday. (Dieu Nalio Chery/AP)
A group of U.S. lawmakers, meanwhile, has joined the opposition in demanding Moïse step down. In a letter to Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Saturday, House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Gregory W. Meeks (D-N.Y.) and six colleagues called on the United States to “unambiguously reject any attempt by President Moïse to retain power.”
AD

Rep. Darren Soto (D-Fla.) said the group was pushing for a “more aggressive message” in response to concerns of the Haitian diaspora in the United States. But he said he “understood” the new administration needed to maintain a working relationship with Moïse to mediate “free and fair elections.”
Daily protests are paralyzing Haiti. Here’s why.
Image without a caption

Protesters demand the resignation of Haitian President Jovenel Moïse on Sunday in Port-au-Prince. (Valerie Baeriswyl/AFP/Getty Images)
Haitians harbored doubts about the alleged coup. Andre Michel, spokesman for the opposition Democratic and Popular Sector, called it “a big joke.” He said the opposition would continue to press for Moïse to step down.
“In the coming hours and days, the mobilization will continue for the installation of the new president,” he said.
The government alleged a plot involving a senior judge and police officials. “They wanted to have the president killed, and then they would enter the palace with the Supreme Court judge, Yvickel Dabresil,” Joseph, the foreign minister, said. “It was a conspiracy.”
Image without a caption

Police confront protesters Sunday in Port-au-Prince. (Jean Marc Herve Abelard/EPA-EFE/Shutterstock)
Joseph forwarded recordings to The Post that have circulated widely on Haitian social media. They are said to capture a coup plotter discussing plans with the head of palace security.
AD

Armed Haitian police were patrolling the entrance of the Supreme Court on Monday. Joseph said they were there to “protect” justices from potential attacks.
15 babies and children died in a fire at a group home in Haiti run by a U.S. church
Moïse addressed the nation from the Port-au-Prince airport on Sunday. “The dream of those people was an attempt on my life,” he said. He said he was not a “dictator,” but a democrat.
Civil society groups critical of Moïse have been calling for a transitional government in Haiti for months. Human rights activists and others say his government has ties to street gangs that have been terrorizing the nation. In June, witnesses in Port-au-Prince claimed to have seen gang members ride in the armored vehicles used by the national police and special security forces. Moïse’s government denies the charges and says it is fighting the gangs.
Image without a caption

Protesters burn tires in Port-au-Prince on Sunday. (Jean Marc Herve Abelard/EPA-EFE/Shutterstock)
One faction of the divided opposition named Jean-Louis, 72, interim president. In a video address, the judge said he had “accepted the choice of the opposition and civil society to serve the country as interim president for the transition.” Moïse’s justice minister called the man a “usurper” who was violating the law.
U.N. peacekeepers fathered, then abandoned, hundreds of children in Haiti, report says
Few nations are as vulnerable as Haiti. The country has suffered decades of misery, shedding the yoke of the Duvalier father-then-son dictatorships in the 1980s only to suffer the failure of repeated efforts to lift its population out of dehumanizing poverty.
AD

The 2010 earthquake that killed more than 200,000 Haitians and left 1.5 million homeless brought an avalanche of international organizations and promises, finally, of transformative aid. But many of the charities have since departed, the transformation unrealized, leaving a mix of resentment and hopelessness as the country has teetered on the verge of anarchy.

Andre Paultre in Port-au-Prince contributed to this report.
The audacity to suggest that this is the fault of anyone but Haitians is vile and repulsive.
 
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NALs

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I have never heard one Haitian say that. In fact, I would bet $12.45 that the exact opposite is much more true. They have an ultra screwed up government and they know the one here, while flawed, is much better than they have. Why would they want to export their government so that the whole island is worse off?
It has never been the Haitians, but rather their government. They have been doing whatever they want and regardless if its backed by public opinion since 1804. Take the various military invasions of the DR by Haiti. They were very unpopular among the Haitian people, but a group of men at Port-au-Prince certainly didn't care what anyone thought of that. If the Haitian government acted the way the Haitian people wanted, there would hardly be any invasions.
 
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NALs

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What's happening to Jovenel-Moïse is a disgrace. Anyone that has met him immediately gets the impression that he is a nice man and truly wants the best for Haiti, unlike some other people who should remain nameless.
 

NALs

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WHAT?!?!?!?
You make this statement on the eve of 27 de Febrero? :oops: :sick:🤮
I have purposely avoided responding to your postings due to our previous documented disagreements, but this statement in itself just shows how far removed you are from REALITY within the RD, and IT'S history!
I will move on now. No further words, as I am a respectful gentleman.
What a folly. Unbelievable.
Well, she is partially right. I'm sure when the DR finally lost around 3% of its territory, a dispute Haiti created with the independence of the DR and maintained the issue all the way until the border agreement on 1929 and an amendment in 1936. The border went from this based in the border agreement from 1777 between Spain and France and consequently each country inherited from their respective metropolis:



To this:



The entire time the border dispute and claiming of Dominican land was made by the government of Haiti. I think anyone would had been hard pressed in finding a typical Haitian that wanted to govern more land on the island, but that's not what was thought in certain buildings in Port-au-Prince.

The reason why this change took place in 1929 despite Dominicans resisted changing the border since its inception in 1844 which claimned the entire territory of Spain (not counting the 200 years or so when the entire island was Spanish before the arrival of the French) is actually due to the United States of America. It was a suggestion and continuous pressure when the USA militarily controlled the entire island to change the border in order to put an end to the border dispute that was the source of many battles and tensions between the two countries. In fact, at the time of the border agreement in 1929, Haiti was still under American control (Haiti US invasion 1915 - 1934, DR US invasion 1916 - 1924).

It was also at the time both countries were invaded by the United States that the US government imported Haitians as labor in the sugar plantations, almost all owned by Americans at that time, and in public works projects such as the Duarte Highway which initially was created by the US Marines following closely the route of the Camino Real de Santiago initially created by the Spanish. Until then Haitians were not imported to the Dominican Republic for anything, and migration from Haiti was limited to a few maroons (most maroons were runaway slaves from the French) in a few mountain ranges near the border and later a few countryside folks that immigrated in search of land to cultivate and live from. Massive immigration from Haiti is a more recent phenomenon and the importation of Haitian workers in agricultural plantations didn't start until the Americans initiated it in the 1920's.

At the time of the USA intervention in both countries they also tried to solve other issues, such as the name of the island. To this day, the official name in Dominican Republic (and this can be seen in the country's constitution) is Island of Santo Domingo, which has been called that since the 1500's and even the French didn't attempted to changed it, but rather named their territory Saint-Domingue which means Santo Domingo in French. In Haiti, the official name is Island of Haiti and this too can be evidenced in its constitution. The Americans unilaterally decided on Island of Haiti as the official name of the island, gaining much rejection and criticisms among the Dominicans. Rather than changing the name to Island of Santo Domingo and getting the same rejection from the Haitians, they decided to look into the history books and fixed on the Latin name of the island, Hispaniola. That name got no rejection from Dominicans and Haitians, despite that each country name the island differently, Island of Santo Domingo by Dominicans and Island of Haiti by the Haitians.

Santo Domingo itself gave the name of the people, The Dominicans. It derives from 'Domingo' and to differentiate from the Catholic Order of Saint Dominic which in English as also called Dominicans, but in Spanish are called Domínicos instead of Dominicanos. Basically, to say Island of Santo Domingo is the equivalence of saying Island of the Dominicans or Island of the Dominican Republic.
 
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