Many Haitians Oppose International Intervention

windeguy

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News that is relevant to the thread: "Many Haitians Oppose International Intervention":

“Today, we must stop the hypocrisy and let the white [people] come and put an end to the insecurity,” Forge said. “Truth be told, I’m putting off my nationalist clothes so that I can find some peace to be able to move around so that hunger doesn’t kill me.”
 

Yourmaninvegas

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News that is relevant to the thread: "Many Haitians Oppose International Intervention":

Personally I think those troops, if there, are wasting their time and in jeopardy for no good reason.
You, China & Russia. 👏
"Other countries, however, have already expressed reservations about committing troops once more to Haiti. Notably China and Russia have said they are cautious given the bad reputation of foreign missions in Haiti that have never achieved the framework set by the U.N.

“Do you believe that a hastily drafted document, once approved by the Security Council, will magically rid Haiti of all its problems,” Polyansky asked. “Sanctions must not become an obstacle to the provision of socio-economic assistance to the country, nor stifle the seeds of the national political process.”

As for the military intervention of the international community, the two countries wonder if such a force will be accepted by the local political parties and the population."
 

Yourmaninvegas

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The current prime minister of 🇭🇹 is illegitimate.
The man currently with the power of arms on the street is not being spoken with.
A military intervention that suppresses the gangs but has no legitimate government to hand the reins of power over is surely just a delaying action.

The following steps need to be followed (in my opinion):
1. The military intervention creates security.
2. A election needs to be held and amnesty given to gang leaders
3. They should have to lay down their weapons and form political parties in return for this amnesty.
4. An effective army and police force needs to be trained.
5. Free and Fair elections need to be held.
6. Foreign governments need to stay out of the political process.
7. They have to let the cards fall where they may and accept the results of the election.

or

1. Dump weapons into the country until the 🇭🇹 settle things out for themselves.
2. At the completion of that process the international community welcomes 🇭🇹 back and lives with the results.

or (and this is my favorite)

Haiti Inc. 🇭🇹
But I would change the name for better marketing purposes in the future.
Simply H Inc. the country formerly known as Haiti.

I am a genius‼️
 
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ricpaq

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I don't blame Haitians for fighting foreign intervention. NGO's, UN troops, missionaries, the Clintons, George Bush, the red cross, Woodrow Wilson and the marines, mercenaries all come under the guise of help. When they leave, Haiti is always poorer, sicker, and angrier. These foreign entities come with the blessing of Haiti's rulers and elites to rob, rape children and give Haitians a false sense of faith.
 

bob saunders

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I don't blame Haitians for fighting foreign intervention. NGO's, UN troops, missionaries, the Clintons, George Bush, the red cross, Woodrow Wilson and the marines, mercenaries all come under the guise of help. When they leave, Haiti is always poorer, sicker, and angrier. These foreign entities come with the blessing of Haiti's rulers and elites to rob, rape children and give Haitians a false sense of faith.
Well, it is rather obvious the Haitian people can't seem to get their act together enough to successfully run their own country. The rest of the Carribean, especially the DR pay a high price for the ineptness of the Haitians to get their act together. They are already demanding (yes, demanding) more free services from the Dominican government. Can the rest of the world wait for them to get their act together?
 

Yourmaninvegas

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It is not obvious to me that 🇭🇹 cannot get it act together in order to successfully run their country.
Show me a single country in the world that has had to endure the kind of start that 🇭🇹 has after winning its independence.
READ HISTORY PEOPLE‼️

Maybe if the world had simply accepted Haiti into the international economy without the draconian conditions after they became independent they (the world as some refer to it) would be having these problems.
Nor feel the guilt to try to keep fixing something they messed up right from the beginning.
Anyone who has a problem with the conditions of 🇭🇹 should thank the 🇹🇫 for being sore losers and the 🇺🇲 for enabling the sore losers.
I don't blame Haitians for fighting foreign intervention. NGO's, UN troops, missionaries, the Clintons, George Bush, the red cross, Woodrow Wilson and the marines, mercenaries all come under the guise of help. When they leave, Haiti is always poorer, sicker, and angrier. These foreign entities come with the blessing of Haiti's rulers and elites to rob, rape children and give Haitians a false sense of faith.
Dead on Point 💯🎯
 
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bob saunders

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Yourmaninvegas

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"Haiti is one of the poorest nations in the world, and rich countries have their fingerprints all over the nation's stunted development. The United States worked to isolate a newly independent Haiti during the early 19th century and violently occupied the island nation for 19 years in the early 20th century. While the U.S. officially left Haiti in 1934, it continued to control Haiti's public finances until 1947, siphoning away around 40% of Haiti's national income to service debt repayments to the U.S. and France."

"It was the former slaves of Haiti, not the French slaveholders, who were forced to pay reparations. Haitians compensated their oppressors and their oppressors' descendants for the privilege of being free. It took Haiti more than a century to pay the reparation debts off."


20 - 30 billion USD as a new nation after winning freedom and independence.
You cannot tilt the playing field, stack the deck, rig the game and then walk away and say good luck with that.
Actually they can and did and see what the situation is today.
Don't give me that "pull yourself up you own bootstraps" (insert expletive of your choice here).
I am not accepting it nor agreeing with it.

🇭🇹 has a good reason to not be pleased with the idea of another international intervention.
Look how the original actions of Haitians were taken by the world.
They simply could not except it.
And anyone who is not like this: 🙈🙉 knows why.
 

windeguy

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It is not obvious to me that 🇭🇹 cannot get it act together in order to successfully run their country.
Show me a single country in the world that has had to endure the kind of start that 🇭🇹 has after winning its independence.
READ HISTORY PEOPLE‼️

Maybe if the world had simply accepted Haiti into the international economy without the draconian conditions after they became independent they (the world as some refer to it) would be having these problems.
Nor feel the guilt to try to keep fixing something they messed up right from the beginning.
Anyone who has a problem with the conditions of 🇭🇹 should thank the 🇹🇫 for being sore losers and the 🇺🇲 for enabling the sore losers.

Dead on Point 💯🎯
It is completely obvious to me they cannot get their act together.
How long can use the excuse you provide for them be used? Forever and ever, I suppose.
 
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Yourmaninvegas

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I provide no excuse for anyone...especially 🇭🇹 .
But I will not accept from anyone that 🇭🇹 has had the same opportunities as other nations (especially the one they share the island of Hispaniola with).
And I understand that those with privilege and all the advantages can spew their vitriolic diatribe about 🇭🇹 with the best of them.
But even as myopic and ridged as the those who may disagree with me may be, they cannot deny that facts of history as quoted by themselves.

Now even after all that 🇹🇫 and 🇺🇲 did to rig the game against 🇭🇹...did they stop there.
No they did not.
I don't blame Haitians for fighting foreign intervention. NGO's, UN troops, missionaries, the Clintons, George Bush, the red cross, Woodrow Wilson and the marines, mercenaries all come under the guise of help. When they leave, Haiti is always poorer, sicker, and angrier. These foreign entities come with the blessing of Haiti's rulers and elites to rob, rape children and give Haitians a false sense of faith.
"But as a nation of freed black slaves, Haiti was a threat to the existing world order. President Thomas Jefferson worked to isolate Haiti diplomatically and strangle it economically, fearing that the success of Haiti would inspire slave revolts back home. With the invention and spread of the cotton gin, slavery was becoming much more lucrative at the very same time a free Haiti was coming into existence, and slaveholders in the United States and other countries clung to and expanded the inhumane means of production. Haitian success was perceived as a threat to this system for decades, and the United States didn't officially recognize Haiti until 1862, as slavery began being abolished."
🇭🇹 has a good reason to not be pleased with the idea of another international intervention.
Look how the original actions of Haitians were taken by the world.
They simply could not except it.
And anyone who is not like this: 🙈🙉 knows why.
 
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bob saunders

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"Haiti is one of the poorest nations in the world, and rich countries have their fingerprints all over the nation's stunted development. The United States worked to isolate a newly independent Haiti during the early 19th century and violently occupied the island nation for 19 years in the early 20th century. While the U.S. officially left Haiti in 1934, it continued to control Haiti's public finances until 1947, siphoning away around 40% of Haiti's national income to service debt repayments to the U.S. and France."

"It was the former slaves of Haiti, not the French slaveholders, who were forced to pay reparations. Haitians compensated their oppressors and their oppressors' descendants for the privilege of being free. It took Haiti more than a century to pay the reparation debts off."


20 - 30 billion USD as a new nation after winning freedom and independence.
You cannot tilt the playing field, stack the deck, rig the game and then walk away and say good luck with that.
Actually they can and did and see what the situation is today.
Don't give me that "pull yourself up you own bootstraps" (insert expletive of your choice here).
I am not accepting it nor agreeing with it.

🇭🇹 has a good reason to not be pleased with the idea of another international intervention.
Look how the original actions of Haitians were taken by the world.
They simply could not except it.
And anyone who is not like this: 🙈🙉 knows why.
Hogwash, only the US didn't recognize Haiti, but even then, they still traded with them. Only France put a price tag, and if Haiti was really free and independent, they would have told France to F off. Actually, Israel has probably had it harder, but they are more intelligent, more resourceful, and whine a lot less. The main reason Haiti invaded the DR was to rob it to pay France. If they were organized to invade the DR and hold it for a number of years, they were not completely handicapped by their debt to France.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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"Under President Thomas Jefferson’s presidency, the United States cut off aid to L’Ouverture and instead pursued a policy to isolate Haiti, fearing that the Haitian revolution would spread to the United States."
"Jefferson refused to recognize Haitian independence, a policy to which U.S. Federalists also acquiesced. Although France recognized Haitian independence in 1825, Haitians would have to wait until 1862 for the United States to recognize Haiti’s status as a sovereign, independent nation."

"At any rate, January 1, 1804 left Haiti facing a desperate task. She was:

  • virtually broke.
  • her base of wealth, the agriculture of sugar, coffee, spices and indigo, was in physical ruins, most plantations having been burned and ravaged.
  • the management structure of agriculture was in total disarray. Formerly worked by unwilling slaves and overseen by foreigners, Haiti was now populated by free peasants unwilling to work for another and wanting their own land.
  • the international community was overtly hostile to this former slave nation. Remember that the U.S., France, Britain and Spain were all still slave nations. Haiti's servile revolution was a frightful model to these powerful nations. (This hostility was not overridden by the fact that some nations, Britain first and foremost and the U.S. to a significant degree, continued to carry on a quiet trade with this nation that they regarded as an international pariah.)
  • a huge source of revenue: slave trade, was now closed to Haiti. (Though some Haitians suggested renewing it to increase the number of field workers.)
  • despite a constitution of free persons, already in 1804 the directions toward despotic rule by a small rich, powerful elite clique was forming.
  • finally, the external world was changing. The coming Industrial Revolution was already coming to claim its place in world history. This would have three notable impacts on Haiti:
    1. Her agriculture products and slave trade, so central to European economy in the previous century, would begin to make her potential economic potential less important, even in some ideal world's free trade.
    2. Her lack of natural resources appropriate to industrialization, the lack of capital and skilled industrialists would condemn her to an increasingly less important potential.
    3. The international community's hostility toward Haiti and deliberate marginalization of her, would mean that the Industrial Revolution wold virtually pass Haiti by. If one looks at Haiti in mid-1995, one sees a small modicum of electric service and telecommunications, and a handful of assembly plants. But, in the main, nearly 200 years after the Haitian Revolution, and 150 years after the vigor of the industrial revolution, Haiti is a nation to which the Industrial Revolution never came.
This was the situation that depopulated Haiti faced on January 1, 1804. (Probably fewer than 350,000 Haitians survived the revolution.)"
"The United States Government had been interested in Haiti for decades prior to its occupation. As a potential naval base for the United States and other imperialist powers, Haiti's stability was of great interest to U.S. diplomatic and defense officials who feared instability might result in foreign rule of Haiti. In 1868, President Andrew Johnson suggested the annexation of the island of Hispaniola, made up of Haiti and the Dominican Republic, to secure a U.S. defensive and economic stake in the West Indies. From 1889 to 1891, Secretary of State James Blaine unsuccessfully sought a lease of Mole-Saint Nicolas, a city on Haiti's northern coast strategically located for a naval base. In 1910 President William Howard Taft granted Haiti a large loan in hopes that Haiti could pay off its international debt, thus lessening foreign influence. The attempt proved futile due to the enormity of the debt and the internal instability of the country."

"As such, Haiti’s independence was viewed as a threat by all slave-owning countries – the United States included – and its very existence rankled racist sensibilities globally. Thus Haiti – tiny, impoverished and all alone in a hostile world – had little choice but to accede to France’s reparation demands, which were delivered to Port-au-Prince by a fleet of heavily armed warships in 1825.

By complying with an ultimatum that amounted to extortion, Haiti gained immunity from French military invasion, relief from political and economic isolation – and a crippling debt that took 122 years to pay off."


If those who consider themselves educators want to give history lessons...they should at least read it themselves before trying to teach others. They should also consult a map to learn geography.
More importantly they should learn the difference between an opinion and a fact.
 

ricpaq

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It is completely obvious to me they cannot get their act together.
How long can use the excuse you provide for them be used? Forever and ever, I suppose.
I get it. You just want this problem to go away as many do. But this is not a simple problem solved by just going in and slaughtering scores of innocent Haitian protesters like we have done in the past. The situation has been made ever more complicated by the decisions of former colonial powers for a long period including the present. A big issue is lack of free and fair elections. Haitians want a leader of their choosing and not one forced upon them. Let them have their chosen leader that they can follow and finally start the healing. The problem still won't go away overnight since we left them with a big mess. But coup activity never makes a situation better long term.
 

windeguy

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I get it. You just want this problem to go away as many do. But this is not a simple problem solved by just going in and slaughtering scores of innocent Haitian protesters like we have done in the past. The situation has been made ever more complicated by the decisions of former colonial powers for a long period including the present. A big issue is lack of free and fair elections. Haitians want a leader of their choosing and not one forced upon them. Let them have their chosen leader that they can follow and finally start the healing. The problem still won't go away overnight since we left them with a big mess. But coup activity never makes a situation better long term.
I don't think you get my point. My point is this problem is not going away. Not ever, based upon history and the current dismal situation.
My point is this problem cannot be fixed. Some things cannot be fixed.

What has to be done is protect the DR from the ill effects of what is happening in Haiti. That is the best that can be done.
 
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NanSanPedro

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I get it. You just want this problem to go away as many do. But this is not a simple problem solved by just going in and slaughtering scores of innocent Haitian protesters like we have done in the past. The situation has been made ever more complicated by the decisions of former colonial powers for a long period including the present. A big issue is lack of free and fair elections. Haitians want a leader of their choosing and not one forced upon them. Let them have their chosen leader that they can follow and finally start the healing. The problem still won't go away overnight since we left them with a big mess. But coup activity never makes a situation better long term.
I agree but Aristide was of their own choosing and I think Sweet Micky was as well. See the other thread about how corrupt the POS Aristide got. There is an element of their culture that says I have to get mine while the gettin is good. I have seen it first hand numerous times.
 
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ricpaq

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I don't think you get my point. My point is this problem is not going away. Not ever, based upon history and the current dismal situation.
My point is this problem cannot be fixed. Some things cannot be fixed.

What has to be done is protect the DR from the ill effects of what is happening in Haiti. That is the best that can be done.
I do get a good part of your point in that this problem is not going away EASY. The current dismal situation is based upon a history that keeps repeating itself. A lot of good efforts get misdirected to the wrong organizations or political factions. The people of Haiti never see the results. The outcome is desperation and chaos.

The DR is not innocent here with all of it's corruption. I know it's corrupt because I take advantage of it too. It is so easy. DR can build a wall but a little DOP will always penetrate it. But to go into Haiti again and do harm to innocent people is an evil that we need to cleanse ourselves of.
 

ricpaq

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I agree but Aristide was of their own choosing and I think Sweet Micky was as well. See the other thread about how corrupt the POS Aristide got. There is an element of their culture that says I have to get mine while the gettin is good. I have seen it first hand numerous times.
Sweet Micky was corrupted by the DR. So both sides of the Island of Hispaniola believe in heavy corruption. Both are part of the problem. Moise was also corrupt but he was placed into power by the Clintons. Good riddance to him.

Haitian voters need to know that their choice at the poles matter. That would be a great starting point.
 

NanSanPedro

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Sweet Micky was corrupted by the DR. So both sides of the Island of Hispaniola believe in heavy corruption. Both are part of the problem. Moise was also corrupt but he was placed into power by the Clintons. Good riddance to him.

Haitian voters need to know that their choice at the poles matter. That would be a great starting point.
I thought Moise was pushed by Sweet Mickey. Did Bubba and the hildabeast push him to do that? This is something I have not heard before.
 
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mountainannie

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I lived in the DR for years and know that DR1 is the water cooler for the English speaking expat community so I am not break into this chat - only this once to say that things are getting very interesting following the Haitian intellegencia over on Twitter - since they have a Much Broader perspective on things and include references to Somalia, Chad -- very educational. My handle over there is @ikopaloma ... I have about 250 new followers in the last two weeks - including some Very High Level thinkers - Ambassadors, Pulitzer Prize Winners.

(Not as much FUN as Y'all though!)
just an FYI for those who might want to follow along
Twitter is Really good at translating instantly from Kryole to English)