No separation of state and church here.

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A.Hidalgo

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It seems until a few days ago the big news about the constitutional reform, which as we speak is being debated in congress, was extending the presidential run for the office. Leonel is looking for a third and possibly more time in office.

Now the abortion issue is taken the spotlight. The Catholic Church along with its supreme leader in the DR cardinal Nicol?s de Jes?s L?pez Rodr?guez, have accused politicians who support measures to modify the abortion laws of being criminals and doctors who practice abortion, butchers. All of the major opposition political parties have sided with the church on this. They seem to have the votes.

When politicians go around saying the DR is a christian country that my friends is dangerous to a democracy that is still a work in progress.
 
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Mr. Lu

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A.Hidalgo said:
It seems until a few days ago the big news about the constitutional reform, which as we speak is being debated in congress, was extending the presidential run for the office. Leonel is looking for a third and possibly more time in office.

Now the abortion issue is taken the spotlight. The Catholic Church along with its supreme leader in the DR cardinal Nicol?s de Jes?s L?pez Rodr?guez, have accused politicians who support measures to modify the abortion laws of being criminals and doctors who practice abortion, butchers. All of the major opposition political parties have sided with the church on this. They seem to have the votes.

When politicians go around saying the DR is a christian country that my friends is dangerous to a democracy that is still a work in progress.
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Too true. The church and their minions have no place in government. They should stick to whatever they do and butt out.




Mr. Lu
 
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Chirimoya

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This thread will not stay up if we start discussing the rights and wrongs of abortion.

Just to point out that it is not about legalisation. The proposed modification would only allow abortions in extreme cases like incest, rape and when the mother's life is in danger or cases like ectopic pregnancy - all currently forbidden by law in the DR. I think that most politicians want to keep the status quo so that they can avoid the wrath of the church and project a pious image while knowing full well that if it was them or their wife/daughter/sister in that situation, there will always be ways and means. The real losers are the poorest women whose ways and means are much riskier, as the mortality stats show.

I noticed a comment in one of the articles about this in today's paper that referred to a more secular constitution that was in place before the Concordat was signed in the 1950s - something to do with Eugenio Mar?a Hostos and Pedro Henr?quez Ure?a - does anyone know more about this?
 
bob saunders

bob saunders

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Perhaps the Cardinal and his big mouth could put pressure on the issue of lack of money for education, and lack of enforcement of various laws too numerous to mention. Promote birth control and there be a lot less abortions.
 
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liam1

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Wonder why do they oppose condom use? Against the prevention AND against the "cure". The more poor uneducated people in the world the more believers is their M.O. i guess.
 
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Mr. Lu

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Chip said:
There are certainly more than enough of those here, true, but this is actually a cause worth standing up for, that is if one takes human life, especially innocent human life, seriously.
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Please heed the moderators warnings. The discussion is not about abortions. It is about church and state, with the issue of abortion as a key example of how the church uses its status to influence opinion and policy. As per not discussing abortion, it is similar to the discussions on race: you can't have that dialogue on a message board. These are delicate subjects with no clear cut winner. In the end the conversation gets muddled with insults and ramblings and can leave many people angered. In the end, it is best to leave such discussions for other appropriate forums.



Mr. Lu
 
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Mr. Lu

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It is understandable that faith have a role in government (indirectly), in the sense that faith will guide the decisions our elected officials make. How they are raised, highly influenced by their faith (in some cases) will inevitably affect how politicians govern. So we ask that our politicians share our faith (for those who have faith) so that when they do legislate the results appease us and fall in line with our values. But that would be Utopian, in a mono-religious society.

What is of concern is how churches, and the Catholic Church, in particular, and in this country, has limited the development of free thought. It has impeded the development of a consistent and viable third party dialogue. A viable opposition to any assertions made by the Church. It is dangerous in the way that monopolies are dangerous in business and dictators are dangerous in politics. Having one train of thought, dispersed by the church, and not challenged by government, or even by the private sector, leads me, and many of similar thought, to believe that the church will govern to its benefit, limiting potential social advancements and progression in changing archaic mindsets.

What further concerns me is when the church steps up and "de-facto" governs. Issuing statements, as if they were statements of god himself, and how politicians run and cower under these words, for fear, of not "the Almighty's wrath," but of the public's dissent.

"Church-like-governments" limit thought, free thought, and potentially marginalizes groups of people who pay equal amount of taxes (in some way) but aren't equally represented under a religiously guided government (considering they don't follow the faith).

Abortion, the death penalty, drugs, education and health services are among the many issues that affect all citizens in the DR, but to have the church govern, especially when it limits the discourse, is potentially dangerous.

But what more can I, or like minded people, expect from an institution that relegates women to the status of second class citizens?



Mr. Lu
 
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suarezn

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The church is the most powerful institution in The DR (unfortunately). In a country where 90%+ of its people are catholic is to be expected, I guess. I remember back in late 70's (I was a kid then, but I still remember) how the priests started speaking out against Balaguer and people like my grandmother (RIP) who've been "Reformista" their whole life were all of sudden against Balaguer because "If the priest said so...he must be bad". Right after that Balaguer had to give up power.

Another example...The Cardinal is mad because he lives in "Ciudad Colonial" and people partying all night long don't let him sleep as much as he would like. So he tells Leonel to put a curfew and stop serving alcohol after 12 AM on weekdays and 2:00 AM on weekends...and a couple of years later here we are with a curfew.
 
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A.Hidalgo

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One of the proposals Leonel put forth to the senate for the new constitution is:

"guarantee the right to life and defines life from the moment of conception until death. (Art 30)"

The church's fingerprints are without a doubt evidently there. In the practical world of the DR, this means in cases of rape, incest and the mother's life is in danger, things will proceed in the status quo mode.
 
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Chip

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A.Hidalgo said:
One of the proposals Leonel put forth to the senate for the new constitution is:

"guarantee the right to life and defines life from the moment of conception until death. (Art 30)"

The church's fingerprints are without a doubt evidently there. In the practical world of the DR, this means in cases of rape, incest and the mother's life is in danger, things will proceed in the status quo mode.
Click to expand...

I take back everything I have ever said bad about Leonel, may God Bless him.
 
PICHARDO

PICHARDO

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Did you guys ever wonder how we came to be the "Dominican" Republic and not The "Kiskeya" Republic????

To say that the Church is very powerful in the DR is an understatement at the very least... After all, our country's values are ingrained within the Catholic teachings of yore. In the DR the Church is the epicenter of our basic culture and day to day lives.

It was within the attendance to Church that most meetings and plans developed for the Trinitarios and their cells. Since the early days of the Republic and before, families would dress in their best clothes and attend Sunday's misas everywhere in the country.

The tradition is kept alive even today, when fewer attend misa on Sundays, yet dress their best when going out...

Most if not all private social institutions founded in the DR, share their roots within the Church's member/teachings.

When was the last time you took a glance at our flag???
You'll see a huge white cross with an open bible set at the center...
The first word atop the center is "DIOS"...
At each flank a Palm leaf (check your bible) and one Olive branch (check your bible again)...
 
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Mr. Lu

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PICHARDO said:
Did you guys ever wonder how we came to be the "Dominican" Republic and not The "Kiskeya" Republic????

To say that the Church is very powerful in the DR is an understatement at the very least... After all, our country's values are ingrained within the Catholic teachings of yore. In the DR the Church is the epicenter of our basic culture and day to day lives.

It was within the attendance to Church that most meetings and plans developed for the Trinitarios and their cells. Since the early days of the Republic and before, families would dress in their best clothes and attend Sunday's misas everywhere in the country.

The tradition is kept alive even today, when fewer attend misa on Sundays, yet dress their best when going out...

Most if not all private social institutions founded in the DR, share their roots within the Church's member/teachings.

When was the last time you took a glance at our flag???
You'll see a huge white cross with an open bible set at the center...
The first word atop the center is "DIOS"...
At each flank a Palm leaf (check your bible) and one Olive branch (check your bible again)...
Click to expand...


No one is disputing the role of religion in the DR. We've seen the flag and we know the history. Religion is an intricate part in many of the "values" and yadda yadda that Dominicans claim to have. A sham if you ask me, but that's for another conversation.

However, what is the topic at hand, is the church's role in government. The DR is proof positive of the dangers that arise when a church exerts this much control over the "thought process of people." People don't lead, they follow. But isn't this mindset what many DR1ers and expats argue about continuously?

This is not about a particular issue(s), or what Fernandez opines on religion. The central issue here is about the church's role in government, which should be none. It is ultimately interesting that many criticize Islamic Republics, which are governed by Islamic law, for governing from the pulpit, yet no one raises an eyebrow when it comes to the same exact occurrence in Christian/Catholic countries. A double standard like no other.

Many would flip the script if they found out government was paying to build mosques, synagogues or Buddhist temples, yet it is ok to have government subsidizes churches? Is the hypocrisy not evident?

A good example of how "things should be," is Turkey. Albeit it has its problems and proverbial skeletons in the closet, it has a 97% Muslim population, with a Non-Secular government.

I find it absolutely abhorrent that there is a bible on the Dominican flag.




Mr. Lu
 
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corsair74

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Mr. Lu said:
No one is disputing the role of religion in the DR. We've seen the flag and we know the history. Religion is an intricate part in many of the "values" and yadda yadda that Dominicans claim to have. A sham if you ask me, but that's for another conversation.

However, what is the topic at hand, is the church's role in government. The DR is proof positive of the dangers that arise when a church exerts this much control over the "thought process of people." People don't lead, they follow. But isn't this mindset what many DR1ers and expats argue about continuously?

This is not about a particular issue(s), or what Fernandez opines on religion. The central issue here is about the church's role in government, which should be none. It is ultimately interesting that many criticize Islamic Republics, which are governed by Islamic law, for governing from the pulpit, yet no one raises an eyebrow when it comes to the same exact occurrence in Christian/Catholic countries. A double standard like no other.

Many would flip the script if they found out government was paying to build mosques, synagogues or Buddhist temples, yet it is ok to have government subsidizes churches? Is the hypocrisy not evident?

A good example of how "things should be," is Turkey. Albeit it has its problems and proverbial skeletons in the closet, it has a 97% Muslim population, with a Non-Secular government.

I find it absolutely abhorrent that there is a bible on the Dominican flag.




Mr. Lu
Click to expand...

Excellent post!


Vince.
 
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catcherintherye

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"I take back everything I have ever said bad about Leonel, may God Bless him."
Chip

Well, Leonel was correct about one thing at least. All he has to do is say a few words to placate the mindless minions and he can get away with anything he wants.
 
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MrMike

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People get the government that they deserve, and the one they insist on. There is no separation of church and state here, and nobody thinks that there is. Apparently thats the way Dominicans want it, so its their business.

Maybe its better that way, since they don't seem to have alot of common sense sometimes and a little fear of God partially compensates.
 
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