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One Island, One Country.
I agree there is this trend. Could you provide some sources for the Canadian government's activity in this process? It wouldn't surprise me since our national state was formed through confederation and has it's roots in French and British colonialism and the colonialization of the First Nations that our government might advocate some sort of confederation. There's some similarities. Not that I'm advocating it, I believe in self-determination and none interference in the affairs of other countries. And then we also share very strong ties to the US economy through transnationals and have the NAFTA agreement (Canada/USA/Mexico). Many European friends don't understand how it's possible that we aren't part of the USA. Some Americans think we're in fact a northern state. What is Canada advocating and how has it activily pursued this "One Island, One Nation" formation?
Pedro, sleep well
Pedro:
I was simply debunking your myth that the US was interested or had a need for a military station in Haiti; just ain't so buddy, we have one on the Moon with Lasers which allows observation and attacks on of all the Caribbean.
irate:
Your sole intent appears to be argumentative so I will cease trying to provide you any actual fact, might get in the way of conspiracy theories
Kearsarge is currently shuttling between USA, Jamaica, Haiti and DOMINICAN Republic providing relief supplies from Gustav's destruction, I beleive it is "Operation Enduring Promise" or similar
Have you been to thee docks to help with off loading of sanitary water supply equipment, bedding or sanitary kits? About what I thought, stuck at the computer again, darn!
The US Certainly has been responsible for many interventions, often does not need a reason you might understand to do what she does, (mayeb Obama will check with you prior to any future actions) but the US far outspends any nation on the World in providing aid to you and your neighbors, without so much as a thank you from your ilk
Have you offered to contribute to the cost of "firing up those diesels" that the American people pay for so that citizens in Haiti and the DR might survive? No actual idea, but I can safely say Kearsarge does not get 30 miles per gallon assisting YOU.
Good ole Internet, according to Navy Fact File Kearsarge is burning approximately Eight thousand ($8,000.00) dollars of "diesel" per hour while underway and close to Three Thousand ($3,000.00 ) per hour while operating her on board equipment, providing shore electrical services etc.
Dammed Americans, spending this kind of money to help people in Haiti and Dominican Republic, what are they thinking
As I said, I have no interest in arguing American versus the world with you, just a few "facts" for you to mumble about while you curse the Ugly Americans
Pedro:
I was simply debunking your myth that the US was interested or had a need for a military station in Haiti; just ain't so buddy, we have one on the Moon with Lasers which allows observation and attacks on of all the Caribbean.
irate:Your sole intent appears to be argumentative so I will cease trying to provide you any actual fact, might get in the way of conspiracy theories
Kearsarge is currently shuttling between USA, Jamaica, Haiti and DOMINICAN Republic providing relief supplies from Gustav's destruction, I beleive it is "Operation Enduring Promise" or similar
Have you been to thee docks to help with off loading of sanitary water supply equipment, bedding or sanitary kits? About what I thought, stuck at the computer again, darn!
The US Certainly has been responsible for many interventions, often does not need a reason you might understand to do what she does, (mayeb Obama will check with you prior to any future actions) but the US far outspends any nation on the World in providing aid to you and your neighbors, without so much as a thank you from your ilk
Have you offered to contribute to the cost of "firing up those diesels" that the American people pay for so that citizens in Haiti and the DR might survive? No actual idea, but I can safely say Kearsarge does not get 30 miles per gallon assisting YOU.
Good ole Internet, according to Navy Fact File Kearsarge is burning approximately Eight thousand ($8,000.00) dollars of "diesel" per hour while underway and close to Three Thousand ($3,000.00 ) per hour while operating her on board equipment, providing shore electrical services etc.
Dammed Americans, spending this kind of money to help people in Haiti and Dominican Republic, what are they thinking
As I said, I have no interest in arguing American versus the world with you, just a few "facts" for you to mumble about while you curse the Ugly Americans
While this is not exactly on the topic of the thread, I would be interested in your sources for your belief that the Canadian gay population created the HIV/AIDS pandemic in Haiti. You're not referring to the theory of "patient Zero" the gay flight attendant are you? I thought that was discredited. How do you know the virus wasn't brought from the former French Congo by Haitian teachers :cheeky: who were in political exile there? Seriously HB, I would like to see your sources?
Well in my search for an answer, I found this. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2290816
No one really knows the sexual practices of the index patient in the epidemic in Haiti, but it appears from studies on various genetic types, that it moved from Haiti to the USA through either sex tourism (the Canadian flight attendant), blood products purchased in Haiti or an immigrant. What we do know is that sadly all over the world people still haven't grasped the importance of "safe sex." Needles are still being reused, and blood products still fail to be tested.
Point of Order! Can we refrain from referring to people as "your ilk" and "ugly Americans"? Okay you can go back to your mud slinging...
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Those 2 countries will never merge as "one" , but it's matter of time before we have an open border.
Haiti has defenetly an erosion problem that will be resolve one day with the new thec of reforesting?
Haiti has more unexploited natural resource than the DR, the latest one is "sand oil" in abondance , that will be exploited , when the oil baril is sold @ USA $100 or more(near future).The dominican fisherman invade haitian territory allot to pursuit their fishes(better fishing in haiti than the DR).
The haitian had lurned to survive with what they have for the past 2oo years so they got good at surviving with very little ,so when the energy crisis will hurt other countries ,Haitian will not have any problemes.
Haiti has a lot ,lot, lot,... more resources than the DR ,They just don't know how to use them and get organize.
One day when Haiti has its "OBAMA" the country will take off and get is prior position in the carabiean "perle des Antilles" (juwrly of the caraibean).
I hope to be alive when it happen? (NOT!!)
Haiti has defenetly an erosion problem that will be resolve one day with the new thec of reforesting?
Haiti has more unexploited natural resource than the DR, the latest one is "sand oil" in abondance , that will be exploited , when the oil baril is sold @ USA $100 or more(near future).The dominican fisherman invade haitian territory allot to pursuit their fishes(better fishing in haiti than the DR).
The haitian had lurned to survive with what they have for the past 2oo years so they got good at surviving with very little ,so when the energy crisis will hurt other countries ,Haitian will not have any problemes.
Haiti has a lot ,lot, lot,... more resources than the DR ,They just don't know how to use them and get organize.
One day when Haiti has its "OBAMA" the country will take off and get is prior position in the carabiean "perle des Antilles" (juwrly of the caraibean).
I hope to be alive when it happen? (NOT!!)
Dejen la pendeja....
So your asking us to re write our constitution , forget about 27th of February. Forget the invasion.. and On Haiti side your asking them ot just give up their struggle to stay sovereign nation status?
Guys we are talking about the first Free Black Nation on the world...yeah they have financial status but No nation will give up its status, culture just to better their income. Plus is not like we have much to give...
Vamos a ser mas serio...
We are all Quisqueyanos but not all Dominicanos....
I love my neighbors but I will not give up my nation status and make a new nation.... If thats the Case How come Mexico does not merge with Canada and US and make on Solid North America.......
I dont mind the currnet migration Patterns
i belive if we domincan remeber our Imigration to NY we will know that our main objection was biulding una casa back in Dr , get moeny to move back home nad live a lo Domincna York...
Maybe Haitinas have the same feeling...
No one wnats ot be in a place wher ethey are mistreated...
Ah.. and to all my fellow Dominicans. Please understand the Haitians are Humans and have feelings, stop with the hate...that will just cook more distnace and we might have otra revolucion..pero por abuso....
So your asking us to re write our constitution , forget about 27th of February. Forget the invasion.. and On Haiti side your asking them ot just give up their struggle to stay sovereign nation status?
Guys we are talking about the first Free Black Nation on the world...yeah they have financial status but No nation will give up its status, culture just to better their income. Plus is not like we have much to give...
Vamos a ser mas serio...
We are all Quisqueyanos but not all Dominicanos....
I love my neighbors but I will not give up my nation status and make a new nation.... If thats the Case How come Mexico does not merge with Canada and US and make on Solid North America.......
I dont mind the currnet migration Patterns
i belive if we domincan remeber our Imigration to NY we will know that our main objection was biulding una casa back in Dr , get moeny to move back home nad live a lo Domincna York...
Maybe Haitinas have the same feeling...
No one wnats ot be in a place wher ethey are mistreated...
Ah.. and to all my fellow Dominicans. Please understand the Haitians are Humans and have feelings, stop with the hate...that will just cook more distnace and we might have otra revolucion..pero por abuso....
Island Dreaming - or should that be island Trippin' ?
The point is mute - It seems America's sorry economy is as bankrupt as its morals and sense of irony.
As it happens, I was in D.R. when the sxxt hit the fan in Gonaives. Our company was the first boat into Gonaives. Every employee was given the option - volunteer or stay in Port au Prince.
Without exception, everyone volunteered - I came back straight away from leave.
You will find that people here do what they need to do. In the case of the NGOs - very little - in the case of businesses - more, but perhaps not enough.
This is before USAID, Medicines sans Frontiers, the Red Cross or any of these other jokers arrived.
Anyway, keep believing that you are invincible - it gives the rest of us a laugh!
Oh and thanks for all your work, personally and collectively in creating peace and understanding in our great world.
Good luck with your new president - he actually displays a little humility - something that would serve you well, my colonial friend.
The point is mute - It seems America's sorry economy is as bankrupt as its morals and sense of irony.
As it happens, I was in D.R. when the sxxt hit the fan in Gonaives. Our company was the first boat into Gonaives. Every employee was given the option - volunteer or stay in Port au Prince.
Without exception, everyone volunteered - I came back straight away from leave.
You will find that people here do what they need to do. In the case of the NGOs - very little - in the case of businesses - more, but perhaps not enough.
This is before USAID, Medicines sans Frontiers, the Red Cross or any of these other jokers arrived.
Anyway, keep believing that you are invincible - it gives the rest of us a laugh!
Oh and thanks for all your work, personally and collectively in creating peace and understanding in our great world.
Good luck with your new president - he actually displays a little humility - something that would serve you well, my colonial friend.
Island Dreaming---
As you can see from this response, it does absolutely NO GOOD to respond to this guy with historical fact- he always will have a negative interpretation and/or response to anything that doesn't fit his agenda of anti-Americanism. He will ALWAYS disregard any positive assertions and go on to spew his hate and venom irrespective of it's inaccuracies.
Racial and ethnic pride is a good thing to have in anyone, but when such prevents one from being able to analyze events, causes and effects, in their proper perspective, it becomes a destructive force not to be tolerated by strong and weak alike. Bullying, in any form is to be met with overwhelming force, then it goes away.
Keep up the excellent posts, my friend.
TB
What is it with people wanting to see the island under one state? There are plenty of one-state-islands around the world that are a complete flop when it comes to economic development. Also, there are plenty of islands that are still fragmented into various political entities. Borneo, New Guinea, Cyprus, St Martin, Timor, Ireland, are some examples that comes to mind.
I don't see the logic of taking a partially functional country and merge it with one that is not functional at all and then expect a better outcome. Sorry, I don't see the appeal in that.
Another crucial point I want to make is this, its not just Dominicans that won't allow the merge of the two states, the Haitians won't allow it either.
I'm tired of the anti-Dominican slant that always permeates discussions about unification of the island.
The notion that its the Dominicans fault that the island is not united is a VERY anti-Dominican and, at the same time its VERY pro-Haitian. This is reminiscent of the prevailing notion in Haiti itself of seeing the DR as a rebellious province, which leads to the belief that the natural state for the island is the state of Haiti and that the DR state is fake, a fiction, something that was not meant to be. Its rooted in the belief that if either of the states ought to be destroyed, it should be the Dominican state.
Let me make this clear again, the unification of the two countries is overwhelmingly opposed by both, Dominicans AND Haitians. There are plenty of Haitians that love their French Kreyol, their Touissant Loverture, and their Henri Christophe, and their flag, and their music, and their independence, and their ways of being Haitian. I doubt they would want to give all those things in the name of uniting the island.
The roads don't end at the border, as long that you have proper documentation you can travel the entire island as it current exist, goods flows both way along the border; there is no need for uniting anything.
More cooperation, yes. Unification, no!
-NALs
I don't see the logic of taking a partially functional country and merge it with one that is not functional at all and then expect a better outcome. Sorry, I don't see the appeal in that.
Another crucial point I want to make is this, its not just Dominicans that won't allow the merge of the two states, the Haitians won't allow it either.
I'm tired of the anti-Dominican slant that always permeates discussions about unification of the island.
The notion that its the Dominicans fault that the island is not united is a VERY anti-Dominican and, at the same time its VERY pro-Haitian. This is reminiscent of the prevailing notion in Haiti itself of seeing the DR as a rebellious province, which leads to the belief that the natural state for the island is the state of Haiti and that the DR state is fake, a fiction, something that was not meant to be. Its rooted in the belief that if either of the states ought to be destroyed, it should be the Dominican state.
Let me make this clear again, the unification of the two countries is overwhelmingly opposed by both, Dominicans AND Haitians. There are plenty of Haitians that love their French Kreyol, their Touissant Loverture, and their Henri Christophe, and their flag, and their music, and their independence, and their ways of being Haitian. I doubt they would want to give all those things in the name of uniting the island.
The roads don't end at the border, as long that you have proper documentation you can travel the entire island as it current exist, goods flows both way along the border; there is no need for uniting anything.
More cooperation, yes. Unification, no!
-NALs
I wonder if people that read this thread know the time line and the history?
Quickly now:
1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue
1585 or so (work with me here I am not an encyclopedia) Francis Drake sacked Sto Dgo.
1605 Due to French, English and Dutch merchants selling contraband, Spain order shut down in North, burning of all towns and displacement of people to South (Puerto Plata, Montecristi, Bayaja, La Yuguana which became Monte Plata and Bayaguana) BUT this opened these same areas to French colonization (or more truly, French usage as pirate ports and later introduction of sugar cane)
1655 England sent Thomas Venables and William Penn to conquer the island, but it did not happen.
1697 As part of the Treaty of Ryswyck, Spain recognizes French presence on western side of the island
1765 (+/-) Treaty of Aranjuez establishes frontiers north and south
1795 Treaty of Basel, Spain, anxious to get back her own territory from France, concedes eastern part of Hispaniola to France. This is when Toussaint and others start to take an interest.
1801 Toussaint takes over eastern part but soon has to leave in face of Leclerc's arrival. Later take over attempts failed but provoked terrible revenge from Dessalines and Christophe, burning towns and massacring hundreds. French (Ferrand) rule.
1814 Peace of Paris: The most Christian majesties return to the most Catholic majesties those territories ceded in the Treaty of Basel. Art. 8 of treaty.
1822 Boyer, needing land to pay officers and troops inherited from Christophe takes over eastern part in power play against poorly administered and poorly equipped eastern side.
1844 Eastern side, fed up with 22 years of Haitian rule, rebel, and proclaim independence.
1844-1856 A series of Haitian invasions repulsed by Santana and others, but fear of more invasions latent in most Dominican thinking.
1844-1860 European and US sniffing around for Saman? Bay or other commercial advantages.
1860 American adventurers plant flag on Alta Vela (Off Pedernales coast) for guano. Eventually chased off...but it scared Santana's government and moved it towards seeking annexation with Spain (not Haiti!).
1865 The Restoration Movement in Santiago and the Cibao ends Spain's rule. (10 July)
From then on, Haiti was only the neighbor, nothing more, in Dominican politics. Often times used as the Boogieman, when distractions were needed due to other important issues that the government wasn't able to handle, and the government needed to divert the public's attention away from the truly pressing issues.
This is true up to the present time, I think.
Does this give some historical perspective to this issue??
Maybe in a few generations, heck, anything is possible, when they have found a cure for HIV/AIDS, cancer and TB. When land can be reforested overnight, and people educated in a week, it might happen....
Cordially,
HB
Quickly now:
1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue
1585 or so (work with me here I am not an encyclopedia) Francis Drake sacked Sto Dgo.
1605 Due to French, English and Dutch merchants selling contraband, Spain order shut down in North, burning of all towns and displacement of people to South (Puerto Plata, Montecristi, Bayaja, La Yuguana which became Monte Plata and Bayaguana) BUT this opened these same areas to French colonization (or more truly, French usage as pirate ports and later introduction of sugar cane)
1655 England sent Thomas Venables and William Penn to conquer the island, but it did not happen.
1697 As part of the Treaty of Ryswyck, Spain recognizes French presence on western side of the island
1765 (+/-) Treaty of Aranjuez establishes frontiers north and south
1795 Treaty of Basel, Spain, anxious to get back her own territory from France, concedes eastern part of Hispaniola to France. This is when Toussaint and others start to take an interest.
1801 Toussaint takes over eastern part but soon has to leave in face of Leclerc's arrival. Later take over attempts failed but provoked terrible revenge from Dessalines and Christophe, burning towns and massacring hundreds. French (Ferrand) rule.
1814 Peace of Paris: The most Christian majesties return to the most Catholic majesties those territories ceded in the Treaty of Basel. Art. 8 of treaty.
1822 Boyer, needing land to pay officers and troops inherited from Christophe takes over eastern part in power play against poorly administered and poorly equipped eastern side.
1844 Eastern side, fed up with 22 years of Haitian rule, rebel, and proclaim independence.
1844-1856 A series of Haitian invasions repulsed by Santana and others, but fear of more invasions latent in most Dominican thinking.
1844-1860 European and US sniffing around for Saman? Bay or other commercial advantages.
1860 American adventurers plant flag on Alta Vela (Off Pedernales coast) for guano. Eventually chased off...but it scared Santana's government and moved it towards seeking annexation with Spain (not Haiti!).
1865 The Restoration Movement in Santiago and the Cibao ends Spain's rule. (10 July)
From then on, Haiti was only the neighbor, nothing more, in Dominican politics. Often times used as the Boogieman, when distractions were needed due to other important issues that the government wasn't able to handle, and the government needed to divert the public's attention away from the truly pressing issues.
This is true up to the present time, I think.
Does this give some historical perspective to this issue??
Maybe in a few generations, heck, anything is possible, when they have found a cure for HIV/AIDS, cancer and TB. When land can be reforested overnight, and people educated in a week, it might happen....
Cordially,
HB
I apologise for being totally off thread, but I have to answer that comment by Texas bill.
Dude,
In some senses you are correct - "Americanism" (interesting word) has grown ugly for a lot of innocent people around the world- so I am anti- "Americanism".
I do however think that in a lot of ways The Unites States of America is the greatest country on earth - founded on great ideas and built by inspired and inspirational people.
Also, Americans I meet on my travels are normal rational people like most other people I meet.
I am definitely not anti-American.
There are a lot of people who are not happy about the "blow the crap out of you in your own country" attitude that "Americanism" seems to precipitate. The guys in charge of American foreign policy have, in my view, been a bit on the over-aggressive side in recent years. Many people agree. Many Americans agree.
Also, when it comes to the "racial and ethnic pride" you mentioned- please tell me which ethnicity you think this might apply to in my case?
Pedro (bully?) Chemical
It certainly wouldn't be to the DR benefit. Qualify how it would be beneficial or can you only insult people by calling then Uncle Toms.
Are you Dominican for real asking this question?Have you not lived in DR? I am a Dominican and as somebody else said over every Dominicans dead body.The cultural difference is too large.It is amazing to hear a bunch of tourist talk about this. You guys really think that Dominicans like Haitians, amazing. They are tolerated and used. I have known of Haitians being killed for something as simple as stealing bananas in my town and the person walks free.You guys need to talk to other people other than the help at the resorts. Walk the streets in the inner cities an talk to real people. A Haitian in DR is treated as a black person was in the US South 80 or 90 years ago. 3 years ago 2 Haitians men were taken out from the inside of a police Cuartel in my town,they were accused of robbing a well liked man in town hurting him real bad but not killing him, they were taken out by a mob and killed. Nobody went to jail.
True that is what the US, France and Canada wants to get rid of a problem they created.Wow you people are dreaming.NEVER.
True there are some, but again I could tell you 3 to 4 towns off the top of my head where they are not allow to be unless is for work or pass a certain a hour. My own neighborhood the grocer builds 25 penciones, the block organization which I do not belong to because I am not always there told him publicly that he could not rent to Haitians, and he has not dare to. It is not fair but it is History. I have live in three cities including the Capital and I have never seen a Haitian at a Dominican kitchen table.
Is it fair, not but I am glad my fellow Dominicans maintain that difference. There is nothing we can gain from Haitian except cheap labor. We are very different than Haitians, NOT BETTER, just different.
You haven't been in my house in Santiago, if we offer a Haitian food at 12:00 noon (hora de la comida) they eat with us at the table, we are not better than they are!.
I don't mind Haitians going to the DR to work, they are looking for a better life and feed their families, they work very hard.
Dude read it I wrote it in capital letters, we are NOT BETTER, but we are a totally different culture. It is just a fact. My family comes from Santiago and most of them are still there, and I know the city very well. If you know it as well as I do you know in the last few years it has had a really bad problems with the Haitian women and kids begging in the street corners. They are not working. It may seem like hard work to stay all day in the hot sun asking for money but is not call work. I could really recommend a couple of books for you on why most Dominicans feel this way.We Dominicans have work real hard to obtain the SEMBLANCE of Democracy and Peace we have now to think of joining with a total failed state. You know I could understand why Americans and other nations would want us to be one island one state, but only here have I seen so called Dominicans utter those words. It is a pathetic lack of your own people as ugly as it may seem.
I know what you mean when you talk about "pensiones" I've been on person in some of those places looking for a Haitian guy that I used to contract to do some contruction and home maintenance work for me. that is not fair the way those people lives, some time they are twenty of them living all together in a small room without any sanitary conditions. That is the reason for what some Dominicans protect against those who make money renting to the poor Haitians in the DR.
JJ