One Island, One Country.

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,536
3,219
113
Have you heard about the massacres of "Papa Dessalines"?, damn it!!!, he killed more than twice the number of Haitians Trujillo did.
Since people are talking about killing, one fact that is often 'forgotten' is that most of the people Trujillo killed during his regime were DOMINICANS.

Some estimates put it at over 30,000 Dominicans and not a single one of the families who lost someone in the regime were compensated in any shape or form.

-NALs
 

Vacara

I love AZB!
May 5, 2009
710
84
0
My point during the ongoing debates on this message board has never been to defend Trujillo.

If one bothers to read many of the history books one can easily see that Trujillo achieved some spectacular results for his nation. Even Trujillo's 1961 TIME magazine brief obit mentions his accomplishments. What I've been trying to explain is how someone like Trujillo came to power. What made Trujillo's regime so strong and, for the most part, popular. And it was popular. I've discussed many of these things on other threads. It's never been a case (for me) of excusing Trujillo's cruelties-I never have-I simply have been trying to explain what actually made him so successful. Do people really think it was Trujillo's 2000 man army that kept him afloat throughout the 1930's? Trujillo's economic, social, education, and land re-distribution policies lie at the heart of his regime's staying power.

Social policies?, you are joking right?, the best social policy Trujillo implemented was the killing of the Reyna family, bloody and cruel (His wife was pregnant) it sent a chilling message to the rest of society. It was designed to let people know who they were dealing with, he wanted to send a message and did so masterfully, , for the next 26 years few people dared to challenge him. His popularity had nothing to do with his staying power.

And for his "land re-distribution" the only land that got re-distributed was the one taken from its rightful owners without compensation or bought at ridiculously low prices to make room for the sugar plantations (owned by foreign investors). He would later force the sugar companies to sell the sugar mills to him, by 1957 he owned all of them with the exception of Central Romana, back then known as "Puerto Rico South Company" or something like that.
 

Vacara

I love AZB!
May 5, 2009
710
84
0
fair and balanced (like Fox News)
Vacara - see, you do have a sense of humour.

All these events were generations ago.
Do you really think Europe got its act together after the troubles of the previous centuries by bickering about the nuances of history?
Remembering the mistakes of history and the traumas is important, maybe.
But using a one sided version of the story to justify current hatred is at best foolish - for both sides.

Do you really think that historical these issues figure in the transport workers' minds when they closed down D.R.'s second most important trading frontier yesterday?
Are they really still pxssed off with Trujillo / Balaguer etc when they ban Dominican chicken/eggs imports?
I think not - they are just being childish and petty.
They, like a few people I could mention, need to get over it and move on.
It seems like you like the tension.
Weird.

This is weird

funny+faces.jpg


Weird too is this video HaitiXchange - Hoax!: Video Alleges Torture of Haitian in Dominican Republic being posted on haitians websites and blogs. It depicts a Haitian having his hands cut off in DR. There are no proof this video was shot in DR and anybody who watch it can tell the guy's accent is not Dominican (rather Panamanian or Honduran). This can get people killed!!!!!.


Weird too is your continue presence in a thread that by the nature of its content is going to be 90% history, and the history of our nations is full of tension. If you don't like history go to the sport section.
 
Sep 20, 2003
1,217
44
48
Social policies?, you are joking right?, the best social policy Trujillo implemented was the killing of the Reyna family, bloody and cruel (His wife was pregnant) it sent a chilling message to the rest of society. It was designed to let people know who they were dealing with, he wanted to send a message and did so masterfully, , for the next 26 years few people dared to challenge him. His popularity had nothing to do with his staying power.

And for his "land re-distribution" the only land that got re-distributed was the one taken from its rightful owners without compensation or bought at ridiculously low prices to make room for the sugar plantations (owned by foreign investors). He would later force the sugar companies to sell the sugar mills to him, by 1957 he owned all of them with the exception of Central Romana, back then known as "Puerto Rico South Company" or something like that.

Trujillo reversed his agricultural policies to make way for his sugar empire, thus destroying a lot of his popularity with rural famers. Yes, a lot of land was taken away from large plantation owners...

The land re-distribution policy is described in detail in the book, Foundations of Despotism: Peasants, the Trujillo Regime, and Modernity in Dominican History, by Richard Lee Turtis. This is a book that is worth reading.

I suggest you read it, Vacara. I don't feel like arguing with you about it.
 
Sep 20, 2003
1,217
44
48
Social policies?, you are joking right?, the best social policy Trujillo implemented was the killing of the Reyna family, bloody and cruel (His wife was pregnant) it sent a chilling message to the rest of society. It was designed to let people know who they were dealing with, he wanted to send a message and did so masterfully, , for the next 26 years few people dared to challenge him. His popularity had nothing to do with his staying power.

And for his "land re-distribution" the only land that got re-distributed was the one taken from its rightful owners without compensation or bought at ridiculously low prices to make room for the sugar plantations (owned by foreign investors). He would later force the sugar companies to sell the sugar mills to him, by 1957 he owned all of them with the exception of Central Romana, back then known as "Puerto Rico South Company" or something like that.

Okay-I just can't let statements as wrong as this go unchallenged.

The Reyna murders, while shocking, did not put a stop to Dominicans working against Trujillo. What do you mean by "few" dared to challenge him? Thousands of Dominicans worked to overthrow or assassinate Trujillo during his 31 year rule. Thousands. Virtually all of these plots came from the middle and upper classes. Many of the most dangerous plots came from Trujillo's own officer corps. If the Reyna murders were carried out so "masterly", why did so many people keep trying to overthrow Trujillo? Vacara, your analysis is just plain wrong.

The land re-distribution was central to Trujillo's support among the rural poor. The rural poor were, for the most part, loyal to Trujillo. The land was orginally re-distributed to the poor. The sugar empire cranked up in the 1950's, and it was a economic and political disaster for Trujillo.

Trujillo didn't worry about the poor rising up against him; he kept an eye on the upper classes and his own officer corps; that's where the real threats to Trujillo dwelled. Trujillo was murdered by members of the elite-many of those involved were Army officers, not poor rural farmers.

Your anaylsis is just wrong, Vacara. I'll expand on this later.
 

pedrochemical

Silver
Aug 22, 2008
3,410
465
0
This is weird

funny+faces.jpg


Weird too is this video HaitiXchange - Hoax!: Video Alleges Torture of Haitian in Dominican Republic being posted on haitians websites and blogs. It depicts a Haitian having his hands cut off in DR. There are no proof this video was shot in DR and anybody who watch it can tell the guy's accent is not Dominican (rather Panamanian or Honduran). This can get people killed!!!!!.


Weird too is your continue presence in a thread that by the nature of its content is going to be 90% history, and the history of our nations is full of tension. If you don't like history go to the sport section.


An aggressive uninformed newbie like yourself is sport for me, Vacara.
Great post by the way - intelligent, relevant, lucid.
It is touching that you have time to post such worthy contributions in between flipping those big-macs.
 

pedrochemical

Silver
Aug 22, 2008
3,410
465
0
Sums it up really as far as Vacara is concerned - if you cannot take part in a debate with words then you get frustrated and resort to pulling faces - a bit like my 5 year old niece.
Very classy.
 

Vacara

I love AZB!
May 5, 2009
710
84
0
Sums it up really as far as Vacara is concerned - if you cannot take part in a debate with words then you get frustrated and resort to pulling faces - a bit like my 5 year old niece.
Very classy.

Still breathing through your wounds, that means I clipped you pretty good eh?


46311590.jpg
 

pedrochemical

Silver
Aug 22, 2008
3,410
465
0
This is supposed to be a debate. You did not 'clip me good' as you put it.
You just ran out of borrowed ideas. Go and have some of your own, if you are capable.

Personally, I suggest you go and see good psychiatrist.

You are a waste of bandwidth.
 
Sep 20, 2003
1,217
44
48
This is supposed to be a debate. You did not 'clip me good' as you put it.
You just ran out of borrowed ideas. Go and have some of your own, if you are capable.

Personally, I suggest you go and see good psychiatrist.

You are a waste of bandwidth
.

I agree, Pedro. By the way-what is going on here?
 
Mar 2, 2008
2,902
544
0
I agree, Pedro. By the way-what is going on here?

That sounds funny coming from you, ogre. But it's obvious that vacara has been trolling this thread simply to stir up discontent and to get serious posters to fight amongst themselves.

Do a google search of "troll" or "internet troll" and you will find your answer.

It is a pity some posters were so intent on defending their own position that they immediately fell into vacara's trap. I believe Pedro was well-intentioned in his posts, but he just fed vacara's obsession.

The old expression goes, "Don't feed the trolls."

Look before you leap.

Check out this definition of troll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
 
Sep 20, 2003
1,217
44
48
I agree, Pedro. By the way-what is going on here?

That sounds funny coming from you, ogre. But it's obvious that vacara has been trolling this thread simply to stir up discontent and to get serious posters to fight amongst themselves.

Do a google search of "troll" or "internet troll" and you will find your answer.

It is a pity some posters were so intent on defending their own position that they immediately fell into vacara's trap. I believe Pedro was well-intentioned in his posts, but he just fed vacara's obsession.

The old expression goes, "Don't feed the trolls."

Look before you leap.

Check out this definition of troll:

Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

catcher-u still have nothing of substance to say. Now you're quoting slang from wikipedia. Classy.
 

PaulAntilles

New member
Jun 1, 2009
5
0
0
ladrino.blogspot.com
First time visitor who just spent about an hour going through this thread and all I can say is wow... lots of info from all sides, and many considered opinions. Ultimately as an amateur student/historian of my parents' home land I have to go with the views expressed by Ogre, Mr_DR, naked snake, cobraboy, NALs, mujermaravilla, vacara and all the other realists. There is little question that aiding Haiti would be a boon to DR, but pragmatically speaking how is DR to provide this help when Dominicans themselves have so far to go development wise?

Also beyond that I agree with you guys & gals who believe there IS a meaning to history, and especially that history which occurred in the formative age of Atlantic revolutions when these two nations were founded. No one would question the propriety of introducing history from the same era into discussions on modern European problems. I guess nation-states and their histories are not valid forms of understanding the Caribbean? This information is not just jingoistic trivia. It deserves consideration as both explanatory and predictive, alongside the rote internationalist theories often brought to bear on our island's issues. Certainly our history has as much place here in this conversation as facetious climate-based theories of behavior.

To bring it back to the original topic, my reading of that history leads me to believe both nations have a long, guaranteed-to-be-interesting and SEPARATE history ahead of them. I don't believe in unification conspiracies, and even if they are out there I don't believe the people on either side will easily let go their colorful histories and cultures to buy into this kind of thinking any time soon.

Thanks to all contributors for the interesting reading!
 

PaulAntilles

New member
Jun 1, 2009
5
0
0
ladrino.blogspot.com
The land re-distribution policy is described in detail in the book, Foundations of Despotism: Peasants, the Trujillo Regime, and Modernity in Dominican History, by Richard Lee Turtis. This is a book that is worth reading.



Totally agree. Excellent book.

I'll give it a third thumbs up! Ogre accurately relayed info within the book concerning Trujillo and rural peasantry. I would also point out that much of the distributed land, per Turits, was either comunero land or land in very vague ownership status.

I see the point many of you were aiming to make about Trujillo and the spark he provided for our side of the island to develop. No, admitting this does not mean you necessarily admire the tyrant. Still we are so often told we must understand history to understand ourselves...well to understand Dominicans you need to make an effort to dig deeper into the Trujillato beyond knee-jerk condemnations of totalitarianism. He was NOT just another tyrant. Even in an era with no shortage of dictators in Latin America he must stand out both for his darkness and his success where plenty had failed.
 
Last edited:

Vacara

I love AZB!
May 5, 2009
710
84
0
Okay-I just can't let statements as wrong as this go unchallenged.

The Reyna murders, while shocking, did not put a stop to Dominicans working against Trujillo.

Catcher's done a nice job teaching people how to get a point across using straw man arguments. When did I say the Reyna's murder put a stop to rebellions against Trujillo?, show me one single dictator in history who suppressed revolts against him using just terror.

What do you mean by "few" dared to challenge him? Thousands of Dominicans worked to overthrow or assassinate Trujillo during his 31 year rule. Thousands.

The meaning of few is open to your imagination but I can give some hints, bet. May 1930 and November 1931 more than a thousands Dominicans were killed by the regime. You can not expect in a country of 1.5 million people to completely shut down the opposition, it's not possible. Bet. Christians and Jews Hitler killed around 20 millions but still several attempts were made to overthrow/kill him.

The murder of Reyna Martinez and his wife got a lot of attention because of the way it was carried out, he was a guy who simply opposed Trujillo in the elections of 1930 and because of that was shot several times with his pregnant wife at home, but this was hardly the only crime Trujillo ordered at the beginning of his regime.

In his early days also, Trujillo took care of people considered national heroes like Desiderio Arias (famous for fighting the Americans in 1916), Enrique Blanco and Cipriano Bencosme. The last one was personally hunted down by Trujillo (he was in the operation theater) and for the first time planes were used by the Dominican army.

Two guys; Jose Paredes and the General Alberto Larancuent resisted Trujillo in his early days and both were executed in daylight in public parks in San Francisco and Santo Domingo respectively, Trujillo wanted to send a message.

When I said that few dared to challenge him I meant that Trujillo didn't need wide spread terror untill 1957 and later, that's when a bunch of of sargents were found plotting to kill Ramfis, when the Movimiento 14 de Junio were found trying to overthrow Trujillo, when the invasion of Playa Caracoles took place, u get the idea now Ogre?, after the events of 1956 (La Feria) it was anger all over the nation.

You and me agreed that Trujillo (unlike what the two Haitian vigilantes suggest) did indeed accomplished a lot of positive things during his 31 years tenure, and that he didn't need the use of wide spread terror to keep people at bay for the first 26 years of his government, my disagreement with you is about the main reason he got to stay in power for such a long period.

To me it is utterly ridiculous to even suggest that Trujillo was "so popular" (and got to stay in power) due to his educational, social and land redistribution policies. Trujillo and his family/cronies owned 60% of the country so it is factually and morally wrong to attribute any development program to any "social concern" of Trujillo, what is next?, that the murder of thousands of Dominicans was his "birth control policy"?, or that the massacre of thousands of Haitians was his "immigration policy"? DR was his backyard and he treated it like so.

In education he did good by Dominican standard but by any other standard he was a miserable failure, in 1930 illiteracy rate was 70%, 31 years later still was 35%, compare that to what Fidel did in Cuba in just two short years.

You could see how socially concerned Trujillo was by the fact that in 31 years he only built two building projects in the nation capitol (maybe a bit more but not too much, I can only mention Barrio Mejoramiento Social and Ensanche Ozama), at the same time he built a number of office buildings, brigdes, highways and streets, all things that he needed in order to accumulate more money and power. So much for his social concern.


Factor in too that in 1930 DR was hit by the San Zenon Hurricane which devastated Santo Domingo, instead of being socially concerned and rushing to help the residents Trujillo and his cronies engaged in lies and deception, to make the tragedy look worse and get more help from others countries, then they proceeded to steal the food, medicine, money, water, and construction materials destined for others and let people to fend for themselves. So much for his social concern.


Virtually all of these plots came from the middle and upper classes. Many of the most dangerous plots came from Trujillo's own officer corps. If the Reyna murders were carried out so "masterly", why did so many people keep trying to overthrow Trujillo? Vacara, your analysis is just plain wrong.

It seems to me you contradict yourself, on one hand you say Trujillo was so popular that was the main reason he stayed in power for 31 years, on the other hand you keep saying thousands of Dominicans were fighting to overthrow him, which one is it?, they are mutually exclusive so it has to be one or the other.

The reason the plots to kill him came from the middle and upper classes was not due to his "popularity" among the poor but because Trujillo designed it that way. Trujillo got rid of all groups through which poor people could vent their frustration and get organized, he prohibited organized labor movements and political parties, he forced all the intellectual to either work for him, leave the country or keep a very low profile, he gave the church everything they needed so they would not complain for the first 30 years of his government (he was even received by the Pope), he would not allow people to travel outside without his permission, that way few (the rich and middle class) could see how different the political environment was abroad.

The land re-distribution was central to Trujillo's support among the rural poor. The rural poor were, for the most part, loyal to Trujillo. The land was orginally re-distributed to the poor. The sugar empire cranked up in the 1950's, and it was a economic and political disaster for Trujillo.

This is silly to put it mildly. in 1930 out of 1.5 million people only 50,000 (3.3%) lived in the capitol, that leave a rural population of almost 1,450,000 (with the exception of Santiago and San Pedro the rest could be considered rural), so you are telling me that almost 96.7% of the population was loyal to Trujillo? are you nut? I'm not the only one who need a shrink here.

Trujillo didn't worry about the poor rising up against him; he kept an eye on the upper classes and his own officer corps; that's where the real threats to Trujillo dwelled. Trujillo was murdered by members of the elite-many of those involved were Army officers, not poor rural farmers.

Your anaylsis is just wrong, Vacara. I'll expand on this later.

Trujillo was popular but nowhere near what you are suggesting he was, if one could measure the popularity of Trujillo by the amount of bullets the members of his army were allowed to have at any given time then his popularity was zero, zilch, nada, cuz zero was the number of bullets that "sometimes" they were given. Other times they had just a few, enough to keep order and to defend themselves. This are the people Trujillo was most popular with, this are the people who were submitted to continue propaganda and brainwashing, who were told that Trujillo was their father, their friend, if Trujillo could not trust this people how could he be more popular among the rural poor?.

If you want to learn more on this topic read the book "The militarization of Culture in the Dominican Rep.", by Valentina Peguero.

You seem like a knowledgeable guy Ogre, I like sharing my thoughts with you.

Regards.