One Island, One Country.

Sep 20, 2003
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Vacara-I disagree with so much of what you wrote. I have read the book by Valentina Perguero. You need to do a little more reading yourself.

I didn't contradict myself when I said thousands conspired against Trujillo-they did. Virtually all of them were from the middle and upper classes. I don't know what else to say about that point.

The Reyna murders were not such a defining moment as you seem to believe. Women were murder by the Caudillos, the shock to Dominican society was that the Reyna's were wealthy, most of the caudillo victims were poor.

The situation in the DR was not calm until 1957. There were countless plots-many of them from the military(Blanco, the Trinity plot of the late 1940's, etc.).Valentina Perguero talks about some them, so I'm not sure what you meant by that part of your post either.

Trujillo was popular with the rural masses. 97%? No, probably not. I suggest you read the book I recommended eariler. That way I can avoid have to repost much of that material as I did in 2006.(Those posts were deleted...) The central premise of that book is that Trujillo did not rule by force of arms; he was popular and so could avoid trouble from the masses with his policies. Read it for yourself, then you can draw your own conclusions. You don't have to agree with what some historians write.

About Trujillo's educational achievements-yes, they were relatively modest compared to others(Castro). But they were a definite improvement. From memory-in 1920, only 120 students attended university in the Dominican Republic. By the time Trujillo died I believe the number was around 5,000. (My numbers are probably off, but this is from memory.) Yes, Castro has had truly spectacular results with his education programs, I've never disputed that. Trujillo at least made the effort. Trujillo was also involved in vocational education programs. You deride what Trujillo accomplished, but for the average Dominican, living in those times, the results were impressive.

I suggest you read the Turtis book, and a few others. Turtis was not the first person to write about Trujillo's popularity with the Dominican masses or his rural programs. He wasn't. I think the evidence of Trujillo's popularity among the rural poor is overwhelming.

If you can find information to dispute it, then post it and I'll discuss it. I'm always interested to read new information on Dominican history. If reliable information emerges, I want to know about it. I never worry about "being wrong" or some such thing. New information can change how people view history. This has happened many times. New texts, letters, documents, emerge and suddenly history is viewed in a different light. To me the truth is paramount. So, if you can find information which disproves what so many historians have documented-you should post it. I'm always willing to re-evalute a situation based on facts.

I think I covered everything in your post. Right?

I guess we will just have to disagree.
 

pedrochemical

Silver
Aug 22, 2008
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You think that a 'weaker' man might have succumbed to the evil Haitian invaders and we might indeed have One Island One Country?

;)
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,813
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You think that a 'weaker' man might have succumbed to the evil Haitian invaders and we might indeed have One Island One Country?

;)

No, but perhaps the border would be a line from Puerto Plata to Azua instead of the current one from Monte Cristi to Pedernales. There's no doubt that the caudillos that were keeping the country in disorder back then would have allowed the border to be moved eastward under their own noses if this served to perpetuate the status quo favoring them.

Snake
 

Vacara

I love AZB!
May 5, 2009
710
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You think that a 'weaker' man might have succumbed to the evil Haitian invaders and we might indeed have One Island One Country?

;)

Pedro I think you are dead wrong by calling Haitians "evil", you've probably been influenced by all the "voodoo" propaganda that is floating out there but by no mean they are evil people. Now.....if you say that throughout their history Haitians have gotten away with murder -literally- with the excuse that "they have no other option" I'd agree with you.

- They killed thousands of french citizens, including children and women but they've been so oppressed by those frenchies "they had no other option".

- Black Haitians killed thousands of fairer skin Haitians but hey......"they had no other option".

- They invaded and occupied a territory that belonged to a sovereign nation but again "they had no other option".

- They fooled Nu?ez de Caceres to declare independence from Spain and once he did so proceeded to invade and occupy DR for 22 years. In that period they committed tons of atrocities and ransacked our national treasury but no complain here.....this poor people had no other option.

- For more than a century they've been stealing our land and resources while sending us wave after wave of unskilled economic refugees but hey........

- In recent time Haitians have been caught cutting trees and performing "criminal fishing" in DR (they pour bleach in rivers and lakes which kills even the smallest fishes and is a human health hazard) but then again what the hell are this people going to do? they are starving in their country so "they have no other option".

- Today Haiti is a dessert, with Haitians cutting trees at the speed of 30,000,000 a year is hard to find a leaf to hide from the tropical sun, it took Haitians one year to cut all the trees planted by the Reagan administration in the 80's, spending tens of millions of my precious tax dollars. It take them only two days to cut all the trees planted in one year by the NGO's that pest the internet asking for donations to plant more trees to feed the "Haitian Anafes", but what the hell do I know, for some strange reason Haitians -unlike Dominicans- are unable to use propane gas for cooking so once again this poor oppressed people have no other god dammed option. Maybe we should call them "the no other optioners".

When did "having no option" become an option?, when was it that the destruction, depredation and ransacking of natural resources was legitimized by waves of aid sent to Haiti by the goodwill of the international coumunity?, when will this people be held accountable?, when will Haitians have a reality check and face the truth that their tragedy is of their own making too!!!, no more bs history, no more blaming the world powers for their irresponsible behavior.

Right after WWII Stalin took Russia down the wrong path and implemented some agricultural policies that wreck havoc in the country food supplies, and ended up costing them what some people estimate up to 30 millions people.

I'd never suggest that Haiti is left alone with their problem, they've more than demonstrated they are unable to govern themselves but one can only ask what would happens if the international community were unable to keep on feeding Haitians?, what if they are left to go "the Stalin way"?, what if evolution and mother nature are allowed to do their jobs?.

One thing for sure, we should stop excusing Haitian's behavior based on the premise that "they have no other option". Nuff of exporting their misery, poverty and social problems to others countries with the lame and worn out excuse that "they have no other option".
 

pedrochemical

Silver
Aug 22, 2008
3,410
465
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Vacara,
you really need to learn about irony, sarcasm and humour.
Perhaps it is too late for you - who knows?

You talk about letting evolution and nature take their course.
You have never seen nature take its course - I can guarantee that by the way you speak.
You have no soul as far as I can see.
Perusing the sleeve notes of the books you should have read does not qualify you to make prescriptions about stuff you have not experienced.
As I said about you before - you are new here and so can be forgiven as you know not what you say.
 
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