- Thread starter sancochojoe
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Pockets of Poverty?
Tony C said:
Tony C, those are the people I'm talking about! That was exactly my point. The other poster made it seem like it was a rampant thing in the DR or something that only exist in the DR. My point was to show that the vast majority of people in the DR are NOT starving and that if the poster was going to go on with his/her starving in the DR theme, that he/she should look into the U.S. since there are people starving there too. It might only be mentally ill person and/or someone who has slipt through the cracks (such as being poor, but not qualifiyng for government help because they earn just above the amount need maximum for help, etc). The fact that such people do starve in the U.S. is enough to say that there are people that do starve in the U.S. It's just that they make less percentage wise of the population than those that don't starve at all. Tony C, you made my point!
well tell me this,
given the fact poor people could at least hussle food on the streets and buy enough food to survive in DR, but living in the US the governement will take care of you, where would you rather be dirt poor, DR or the US assuming you could speak the two languages fluently?
given the fact poor people could at least hussle food on the streets and buy enough food to survive in DR, but living in the US the governement will take care of you, where would you rather be dirt poor, DR or the US assuming you could speak the two languages fluently?
sancochojoe said:
If I only take economics into account, I would probably prefer US because its just easier to receive a check than to work for some pennies.
However, if I take into account the level of happines, the culture, the family ties, and the simple joys of living, I would prefer the DR. Even though I might have to scrap a living out of thin air, there are always people in the DR that visit their neighbors and friends with a plate of food! Plus, people are most of the time in a good mood, sitting and relaxing under soothing palm trees and avocado trees is not a rough life! Also, I won't be living a life of sitting in the living room watching television all day, talking about how everybody else is luckier than I am, and simply living a boring life of picking up welfare checks and living in the projects. When all aspects of living poor in the US vs. DR are taken into account, in my opinion the DR wins due to the strong positives in most aspects. Most people only take the economic side, so they prefer the US. I take all the sides and prefer the DR.
After all is said and done, it's really a matter of subjective analysis of observed conditions.
Texas Bill
Texas Bill
' favor, no me coje en tu boca con mala fe
Nalowhs, I (the "other poster") wrote:
"But is is definitely NOT true that nobody is starving in the DR. Many people have poor quality food and quite a few pasan hambre."
So, :
- I understand you may disagree with me. But what's the point transforming my words?
- I personally know quite a few people who are literally starving, and MANY people that eat rice, rice and rice, because at 40 something la libra de pollo they cannot buy. So for me, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.
- I didn't mention any other country. Furthermore, not being from the US myself, there is no point sending me to Mississipi, Alabama or I don't know where.
- I understand from your point than the poverty situation in DR is more or less comparable to the USA.
"Mississippi, Alabama, and some other states primarily in the Southern U.S. where people are starving! And when I say starving, they are starving!"
"When we say that there are no starving people in the DR, that is based on how many people on average starve in developing and under developed countries around the world. Of course there are going to be a few starving, there are some in the U.S. starving so what can be expected of less developed nations!"
So, when you said there is no starving people in the DR, I stupidly understood you said there is no starving people in the DR. I apologize for being so confused.
- I read in DR news that the minimum wages in the free zones in the west are 1690 pesos a month. that is less than 2 dollars a day to work. Hope they don't have to pay motoconcho.. And this bastards cut wood to make charcoal?...
Barnab?
Nal0whs said:
Nalowhs, I (the "other poster") wrote:
"But is is definitely NOT true that nobody is starving in the DR. Many people have poor quality food and quite a few pasan hambre."
So, :
- I understand you may disagree with me. But what's the point transforming my words?
- I personally know quite a few people who are literally starving, and MANY people that eat rice, rice and rice, because at 40 something la libra de pollo they cannot buy. So for me, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.
- I didn't mention any other country. Furthermore, not being from the US myself, there is no point sending me to Mississipi, Alabama or I don't know where.
- I understand from your point than the poverty situation in DR is more or less comparable to the USA.
"Mississippi, Alabama, and some other states primarily in the Southern U.S. where people are starving! And when I say starving, they are starving!"
"When we say that there are no starving people in the DR, that is based on how many people on average starve in developing and under developed countries around the world. Of course there are going to be a few starving, there are some in the U.S. starving so what can be expected of less developed nations!"
So, when you said there is no starving people in the DR, I stupidly understood you said there is no starving people in the DR. I apologize for being so confused.
- I read in DR news that the minimum wages in the free zones in the west are 1690 pesos a month. that is less than 2 dollars a day to work. Hope they don't have to pay motoconcho.. And this bastards cut wood to make charcoal?...
Barnab?
Texas Bill said:
And that's the problem with this type of discussion. We get input from people who rarely venture out of tourist areas or the smarter areas of the big cities who think that the DR is a rich country. If you were to measure a country's affluence by the number of luxury cars then you might come away from Haiti with the same impression, provided you stayed in Petionville.
Then we get observations from people who have seen more of the poverty in the DR. I don't think anyone would be able to dispute the fact that more capitalenos live in the vast sprawls on the riverbanks than in Piantini and other prosperous neighbourhoods. No one is starving is another comment that those of us who have visited the south west might be able to challenge.
Certainly, compared to Haiti we are not that poor, and that is the point the reporter was trying to make. Pockets of poverty compared to Haiti is just about defensible as a statement of fact, but show me a country that hasn't got pockets of poverty.
I glanced at a more objective attempt to measure poverty which is the UNDP Human Development Indicators Index.
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...esskit/HDR03_PKE_HDI.pdf+undp+hdi+index&hl=en
DR is just over half-way down, at number 94, out of a total of 173 countries. Haiti is much nearer the bottom, at number 146.
DR is still poorer than most of the southern cone - Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, even Peru and Paraguay, but not Bolivia. Some Central American and Caribbean countries are better off, according to the index, like T&T, Panama, Cuba, Jamaica, Barbados, Costa Rica, Mexico and Belize but not Guatemala and El Salvador, Honduras or Guyana. We are in the vicinity - poverty wise - of Ecuador, Uzbekhistan, China, Tunisia and Iran.
Poverty manifests itself in very different ways in different countries, so in many ways this is a case of comparing apples and oranges, but the HDI index makes some interesting reading, especially when you go into the detail of the individual country reports.
Last time I checked, the rate of Mercedes ownership is not used as an indicator of affluence in the HD reports. If it were, then many of the countries in the top twenty would plummet down the list. They have their share of wealthy people, but most of these tend to avoid the sort of ostentatious displays of wealth we see in the pockets of affluence in the DR, Haiti and other countries.
Chiri
This is a really interesting topic and I've a few things to add!While I don't think that the DR being touted by a cnn reporter as alot better off than haiti,is any reason for celebration.Haiti is one of the poorest countries in the world and the DR is a "third world" country in every sense of the term and there's plenty of poverty & deprivation in the country."Pockets"is an understatement!
Now,we must keep in mind that there's different levels of poverty around the globe.From a global perspective the DR and it's citizenry are in fact somewhat better off than alot of other poor developing nations.Seriously.........when you look at key quality-of-life indicators,such as life expectancy,health,literacy rates,GDP,per capita income,the DR ranks better than quite a few devoloping nations.In comparison to african countries,the DR is much much better off.
I've always felt that given the abundance of natural resources in africa,there's absolutely no excuse for them beings as poor an backwards as they are.A few links:
http://www1.worldbank.org/operations/WBOPCS/preports/Report_annex_D1.asp
http://www.photius.com/rankings/gdp_2003_0.html
http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/life_expectancy.php
Now,we must keep in mind that there's different levels of poverty around the globe.From a global perspective the DR and it's citizenry are in fact somewhat better off than alot of other poor developing nations.Seriously.........when you look at key quality-of-life indicators,such as life expectancy,health,literacy rates,GDP,per capita income,the DR ranks better than quite a few devoloping nations.In comparison to african countries,the DR is much much better off.
I've always felt that given the abundance of natural resources in africa,there's absolutely no excuse for them beings as poor an backwards as they are.A few links:
http://www1.worldbank.org/operations/WBOPCS/preports/Report_annex_D1.asp
http://www.photius.com/rankings/gdp_2003_0.html
http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/life_expectancy.php
carl ericson70 said:
Not to beat a dead horsse. But I think this may be an issue of the individuals frame of reference. Obviousely, when I think of examples of the worst poverty in the world, I remember images of starving children in African nations. When I lived in the DR, and all of my subsequent visits over the years, the type of work I was doing took me into many towns. And I ventured down just about every street and callejon in those towns. I met and talked at legth with a lot of people. While I never saw anythng resembling the images of the kids in Africa, I did see some pretty harrowing things. Too many people living in one roon huts made of card board or tin cans. Too many families having nothing but corn for dinner. Too many people skipping meals all together. Real poverty and desperation.
I don't know if this adds to the discussion. Or if I am blathering on. But after a while, it seemed like that was all I saw. But for the most part, they were happy.
Forbeca said:
I agree with you on this.. If you notice those Spanish Language tabloid type shows like "Al rojo vivo", they always focus on the negative aspects of the DR not to fault the show itself but maybe the local reporters that cash-in on others misfourtunes and tragedy, over time people get this distorted image of what this country is about.
On another aspect of these type of country index etc. In general they may be acurate on certain clearly measurable variables such as GDP etc. But how do you measure happiness, a very important aspect of quality of life don't you think?
Narcosis said:
But thats the nature of all tabloids and news. Thats a human nature thing common in all countries. We enjoy the negative. Thats what sells ads
sancochojoe said:
There is an interesting flip side to that. My wife is Dominican. Born and raised in Santiago. We used to get in the biggest arguments because of what I would tell people about the DR. She hated it if I ever talked about the poverty and strange goings on. When she is around, I have to sugar coat all my discriptions and stories. It seems like most Dominicans that I know, and I know lots, are trying to avoid the elephant in the living room.
stewart said:
yep, its that "keep it in the family" syndrome or "don't try to stop two brothers fighting" syndrome. They will turn on you if you try to jump in.
Hey, I spent a long time on that post!
If people only posted when they had something completely new to say there would be cobwebs growing all over the DR1 forums by now...
I hope some of you liked the stuff about where we are on the list in relation to other Latin American and Caribbean nations, and which countries across the world are our nearest 'neighbours' on the list.
Chiri
Forbeca said:
If people only posted when they had something completely new to say there would be cobwebs growing all over the DR1 forums by now...
I hope some of you liked the stuff about where we are on the list in relation to other Latin American and Caribbean nations, and which countries across the world are our nearest 'neighbours' on the list.
Chiri
Personally, I loved your posting. This is the info people need to know, not how many Benzes a few people drive in DR. That is not a reflection of wealth, rather it is a reflection of the disparities of wealth that exists in the country. Many people enjoy living in a bubble.
D
PS. You are soooo right on the cobweb issue. After being on here a few weeks the regulars start to sound like a broken record. I had a good laugh on that.
D
PS. You are soooo right on the cobweb issue. After being on here a few weeks the regulars start to sound like a broken record. I had a good laugh on that.
Chirimoya said:
stewart said:
Lol! I know exactly what you mean and my gal also acts sorta guarded about the DR at times.Honestly,alot of immigrants that I've met,whom hail from poor developing nations tend to go-on about their home countries as if they're rich and poverty doesn't exists therein.I don't know whether it's nationalist pride,inferiority complexes,out-right lying,or what........ that propels them to do so.I've even met people from africa,who swore up and down that the western media exaggerates the poverty & despair that's associated with the continent and things are fine there.
carl ericson70 said:
A person that was born in the U.S. and was raised in the U.S. would see things in the U.S. as fine because that is what they have been exposed to since birth. Others from other places may see it different, but the one from the U.S. see's the good, the beauty, and the nice things about the U.S. The samething applies to people from all countries in the world. Especially with developing nations since the media does only show one side of the story. So people feel they must show the other side. The truth is this. The media says the DR is poor. That is seen as a negative, unhealthy, almost uncivilized thing by many that are not from the DR. But the truth is this. When you stand in a dirt road in the Dominican countryside and you're sorrounded by Clapboard homes and people smiling all the time, you think to yourself, maybe these people are not poor in the sense of the word, maybe this is how these people do their thing!! It doesn't take much to live in the tropics! Think about it, the first time you found yourself in a Dominican countryside village. Didn't you thought to yourself "wow, I'm in the third world right now. It doesn't feel as bad as I thought it would. Actually, I feel fine right now." That's the moment of truth. That moment is the moment people see in each of their country. That's why you'll hear people from countries like Liberia with a civil war saying that all is fine there. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the truth is that I can only see the civil war as a non-Liberian. Maybe if I put myself in the Liberian shoes I'll see the beauty of that place. And that is why such thing happens.
carl ericson70 said:
I don't know why you would find this so far fetched? Each person lives their life individually and it is their own perception of life that counts.
I have a very blessed life in the DR and enjoy it to the fullest, I may not represent the majority of the country but hey when I look around I do see a lot of happy people each in their own level of material prosperity but basically enjoying the Dominican way of life which on the surface may seem shallow or ostentatious to foreigners but it is only skin deep and Dominicans really know how to love each other and enjoy each others company and make the best of what life has to offer, this may be one of our greatest gifts, that goes beyond the misfourtune of a bad 4 year presidential term or a rise in gas prices or pot-hole ridden streets.
Other more prosperous nations have higher suicide rates, depresion, stress and stress-related maladies such as obesity, anorexia and bulimia. Why do so many tourists feel so good when they are here? With all of our problems and backwardness it is a country with a character and style all it's own.
This is also a land of opportunity, you just have to have the right frame of mind and deal with what is thrown at you correctly, work with what is available to you and move forward.
Prosperity is as much a mental virtue as a material one so I guess at the end of the day if people feel good with what they have and enjoy it to the fullest they are the ones that are the richest.