Thanks for summerizing the discussion. I take it you want the discussion to end. Right?Barnabe said:Starving Alabama,
Wealthy Jews,
exodus, immigration,
what's next?
Delirium tremens.
Barnab?
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Thanks for summerizing the discussion. I take it you want the discussion to end. Right?Barnabe said:Starving Alabama,
Wealthy Jews,
exodus, immigration,
what's next?
Delirium tremens.
Barnab?
sancochojoe said:Thinks for summerizing the discussion. I take it you want the discussion to end. Right?
Nal0whs said:According to some friends of mine (American friends), East Saint Louis in Missouri (across the Mississippi River from St. Louis) is a very poor place in the heart of the U.S. I don't really believe this, supposedly they have to burn their garbage because they don't have garbage collection! I have to go there and see that for my self, but you know that old Dominican saying "When you can hear the river, its because it has water running".
Well, maybe I can believe it. I did witness a house in the woods of Central Florida with tin roof (reminded me of home), wood walls that were not painted and looked as if it had some termites and a very very poor black family. The kids were wearing rags! But, what shocked me the most was that little shack in their back yard, supposedly it was their "out house" in other words "Letrina". This in the U.S. in the 21st Century? Believe me, I was shocked beyond imagination!
deelt said:It does not matter where we look
Colinas in South Texas paralleling 3rd world
Appalachia, West VA poor depressed coal mining town
St. Louis, Missouri (yes, I've been there)
NAtive American reservations (been there too)
all does not compare on per capita terms to what is experienced in DR/Haiti.
The problem still have access to opportunity if they chose to leave their hometowns. This is what I mean by living in a bubble. This is not the case in DR in marginal terms. The improvement of moving to the capital is minimal in DR (when compared to the US). It doesn't matter how hard you try depending on who you are, what you look like, who you know, where your are from, etc. You can't get through the "oligarchical ceiling" that exists. Even if nothing can be put on you, people are liable to make something up!
D
stewart said:Just to be sure I understand you: Are you saying that Dominicans are born into a caste system from which there is no escape? That no matter how hard they try, the poor will never be able to be anything but poor?
sancochojoe said:I think that many of you talk as if everybody came from the same mold and the same economic and educational background. Why do many of you have such a myopic view of seeing the world.
If you are born into a family who falls under a poor class, chances are the family will generationally live under that condition and it will be very difficult to move up out of it. Same with an Elite family. Chances are you will stay well educated and financially sound. Thats the nature of a class society.
Its like a race, if you are not prepared to run that race, you are more likly to lose. You cannot expect a child born into a poor family with the values and education and influence of that poor family and the community in which they can afford to live, and put that child on the starting line and say, "ok, you have an opportunity now."
But you get comments from posters like
"The problem still have access to opportunity if they chose to leave their hometowns. This is what I mean by living in a bubble"
If everyone was born lucky in a well-to-do household their chances are great. I KNOW THERE ARE CASES WHERE THOSE SUCCEED FROM POOR HOMES, but there is a less likely hood that this will happen and statistical data shows that, so don't throw in any anecdotal Evidence(sp) to support your argument.
One thing in DR that won't happen is the elite class willing to uplift the majority of their people out of poverty. THAT WONT HAPPEN. Why because we get some people yelling socialism or something else extreme and it is much easier to say its the poor peoples fault for living in the conditions they created.
sancochojoe said:But you get comments from posters like
"The problem still have access to opportunity if they chose to leave their hometowns. This is what I mean by living in a bubble"
If everyone was born lucky in a well-to-do household their chances are great. I KNOW THERE ARE CASES WHERE THOSE SUCCEED FROM POOR HOMES, but there is a less likely hood that this will happen and statistical data shows that, so don't throw in any anecdotal Evidence(sp) to support your argument.
One thing in DR that won't happen is the elite class willing to uplift the majority of their people out of poverty. THAT WONT HAPPEN. Why because we get some people yelling socialism or something else extreme and it is much easier to say its the poor peoples fault for living in the conditions they created.
stewart said:Just to be sure I understand you: Are you saying that Dominicans are born into a caste system from which there is no escape? That no matter how hard they try, the poor will never be able to be anything but poor?
deelt said:The poor dominicans can prosper marginally as long as they are not a threat to the oligarchy. Once this is the case someone is going down. You can only desire to prosper when you see real opportunities. What worth is it to have a college degree and no last name (ie an elite family/gov't party) to get your foot in the door or speak on your behalf or to provide you with the necessary capital you need to start something on your own?
stewart said:I disagree with your logic. And I think it comes down to a definition of success in the DR. Anybody can create success and wealth there even from humble beginnings. Whether they are then accepted into elitist circles after acheiving said success is in my opinion irrelevant. Based on those merits, you are probably right. I simply reject your definition of success.
deelt said:Stewart, you can disagree that is your right. I am completely comfortable with that. I do hope I am wrong. But question to you, if in fact people can make it why don't most? My take is you can only have true aspirations when you see and feel real opportunity. That is not observed in DR. If you do study but have no connections or capital to get your foot in the door the degree is not worth much.
I reiterate: People can prosper as long as they are not a threat to the established oligarchy. Why should this matter? Because it is about access to power and true policy change. This is why clean politics is such a challenge its a rotating oligarchy that shifts parties when threaten. This is the same reason wealthy classes are threatened by v. well educated Dominicans from the US from poor backgrounds. They even have slurs for classification purposes, (eg dominicanyorks).
Isolated cases of what you measure as happiness (although ideal) are not enough to create the needed more all-encompassing change demanded country-wide.
Nal0whs said:But there are many and I do mean many previously poor Dominicans that got a degree and now profess their profession and are part of the middle class.
Nal0whs said:So tell me how is it that so many Dominicans are able to own colmados and ferreteria stores and go "conchando"? I thought the elites did not allow low income dominicans to prosper?
Could it be that many poor dominicans simply pass up opportunities. There are many poor Dominicans that are given free education from 1st grade all the way up to college at the University of Santo Domingo free of charge (except for the books and uniforms) and many Dominicans simply opt to quit school. Is that the elite preventing them?
Don't hate the elite for being wealthy and successful! Hate the poor's attitude at not taking a chance when the opportunity comes knocking. Now, I know not every poor Dominican kid has an opportunity to go to school, but those that do go don't make much of it and quite frankly, the rich folks have nothing to do with that.
deelt said:Stewart, you can disagree that is your right. I am completely comfortable with that. I do hope I am wrong. But question to you, if in fact people can make it why don't most? My take is you can only have true aspirations when you see and feel real opportunity. That is not observed in DR. If you do study but have no connections or capital to get your foot in the door the degree is not worth much.
I reiterate: People can prosper as long as they are not a threat to the established oligarchy. Why should this matter? Because it is about access to power and true policy change. This is why clean politics is such a challenge its a rotating oligarchy that shifts parties when threaten. This is the same reason wealthy classes are threatened by v. well educated Dominicans from the US from poor backgrounds. They even have slurs for classification purposes, (eg dominicanyorks).
Isolated cases of what you measure as happiness (although ideal) are not enough to create the needed more all-encompassing change demanded country-wide.