You have mentioned previously that you frequently visit the RD with your husband, and currently own property here within. This is contrary to what the other poster stated. We can agree to disagree.
- Thread starter frank recktenwald
- Start date
Proof that Trujillo didn't kill the Mirabal sisters?
You have mentioned previously that you frequently visit the RD with your husband, and currently own property here within. This is contrary to what the other poster stated. We can agree to disagree.
Every thing..... to do w/ motive...ogre...
Communist hate for el general is well known...
You think..all the history,,is not related...
Trujillo was murder by a bunch of back stabbers self serving individuals...he contributed much to what good is R/D is today.
The person most responsible for the ultimate demise of Trujillo was Fidel Castro. The decision was made in the waning moments of the Eisenhower administration. In order to have the support and backing to topple Castro, it was decided that the US could not keep Trujillo around and the wheels were set in motion. It would make for an interesting discussion would Trujillo have lived if the the assassins didn't have the support of the US government.
And the people backed by Fidel did not kill Trujillo. Period.
Was Antonio de la Maza motivated by Castro to kill Trujillo? No.
Was General Juan Tomas Diaz motivated by Castro to kill Trujillo? No.
Was General José René Román Fernandez, (Pupo Roman) motivated by Castro to Kill Trujillo? No.
Was General Imbert motivated to Kill Trujillo by Fidel Castro? No.
Was...
If you actually read Dominican history books you would know why these people started or joined the plot to kill Trujillo. Obviously, you haven't done that.
Instead of just a bunch of incomplete (and incoherent) statements, why don't spell it out? You are not being clever, just evasive because you don't know what you are talking about.
If anyone was a self serving backstabber, it was Trujillo. He double crossed virtually everyone. He never appreciated loyalty, and he wouldn't tolerate any disagreement. He tortured and murdered his opponents. He stole land and property; Trujillo was a gangster.
While there were substantial improvements during his rule, Trujillo's arrogance lead him to abandon many of the policies which made him popular with the poor. The final years of Trujillo's rule were filled with mass discontent and even protests against him by the farmers. You would know this if you had studied the history.
As for the conspiracy theories regarding the CIA's involvement, they have already been debunked. If anyone bothered to read the book The Death of the Goat (the history book) which was written in the 1970s, the lack of CIA involvement is laid out in detail. There are many reliable history books out there, why not open one?
It's convenient for many to blame America and the CIA for everything. It's also pathetic. The people who actually killed Trujillo resisted interference by the CIA. They started without CIA help, and they carried on through without it. Why must people continue to prattle on about the CIA and Fidel Castro? Are Dominicans so weak that they are incapable of acting alone and of their own initiative? Is your opinion of Dominicans really that low?
Had Trujillo stepped down voluntarily in the mid 1950s (before the Galindez murder), perhaps, perhaps, history would have judged differently (though I doubt it). But that was not Trujillo's nature. He was a dead ender. The only way out of power for Trujillo was in a casket.
I'm not going down any rabbit holes, you are.
Well, democracy doesn't have to mean corruption. Caudillos have a long history of corruption. Why do you believe a new Dominican dictator would be efficient? You equate democracy with decline and corruption and dictators with efficiency. That doesn't hold up. How many Dominican Caudillos were efficient statesmen? How many caudillos had balanced budgets?
Trujillo made a lot of mistakes and miscalculations. (But of course, being as well read in Dominican history as you are, you know that.)
Trujillo's family members were considered worthless by everyone who came in contact with them. Only Trujillo had the skills to govern (in his own way).
Handing over absolute power--including the power of life and death--over to a dictator is not only extremely dangerous, it's moronic. You are granting someone a license to kill. What if they turn on you and murder you? Trujillo turned on all of his followers. Virtually all of Trujillo's followers faced some form of humiliation and imprisonment, and sometimes even death. What do you think your chances really are of surviving a Caudillo? Do you think you can give someone 'like Trujillo' limited forms of power. They won't accept it. They'll want absolute power, then they won't give it up.
In the end, people get the government they deserve. If Dominicans want to surrender themselves to another caudillo, they will get another caudillo. Will they get an efficient one without Trujillo's brutality? (Highly unlikely, el jefe needed brutality to do what he did) Or will they get a Papa Doc? Or even another Trujillo?
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They had passive support at best. When they killed Trujillo, it came as a surprise to the US government. The US government was completely unaware the assassination was about to happen. It was a last minute affair, that's why so few of the team were in place when it happened.
And for those of you clamoring for a caudillo, remember this: caudillos do not provide 'Safe Spaces' or tolerate Snow Flakes. If you don't like what a caudillo says or does, he will go after you. If you die from paper cuts, how are you going to ride shotgun with a caudillo? They don't care about your feelings. Consider all of this carefully, and then look in the mirror and ask yourself if you really want another Jefe.
Ogre...i would not pretend to know what motivates murderers...surely they wont tell you..if you ask.
Hate, love, sense of patriotism..perhaps..also greed and unfounded self righteousness.,,i would not trust a word they had to say.
What is true Cuba and R/D history, have had a very close relationship...
That old saying power corrupts and complete power corrupts completely ...applies to trujillo..he was very old and loosing his touch..how else this inept bunch of yahoos got to him... one driver down malecon..no second car..w/ escolta...Always the same routine it is like.. he was asking for it.
Hate, love, sense of patriotism..perhaps..also greed and unfounded self righteousness.,,i would not trust a word they had to say.
What is true Cuba and R/D history, have had a very close relationship...
That old saying power corrupts and complete power corrupts completely ...applies to trujillo..he was very old and loosing his touch..how else this inept bunch of yahoos got to him... one driver down malecon..no second car..w/ escolta...Always the same routine it is like.. he was asking for it.
This post is riddled with mistakes. Where do I beging? How about just one?
It was not always the same routine. For virtually all of Trujillo's rule, he travelled with multiple cars, a large bodyguard, and even motorcycle mounted security. For most of Trujillo's rule, the police would clear the roads ahead of Trujillo for miles. Trujillo travelling in a lone car with one driver was a security tactic he had only recently adopted. You would have known that, if you had studied Dominican history. You don't know what you are talking about.
It's obvious to me that you have never really studied Trujillo. Everything you wrote was just noise. Nothing more.
Yes,,,sure,,this is a "new" tactic..to be totally unprotected..on his nightly stroll...i get it ogre.
since you get so defensive w/ the truth...and only "you" know stuff..i wont reply no more..i defer to the experto..
That's what I said. The CIA orchestrated it. Passive support like you said. CIA agents weren't personally involved in actually killing him.
No, that's not what I said. What I said was that if you don't reside in the US, you cannot comment on the daily realities of living within a certain community. You and others stated that you did not live in NYC, yet you wanted to actually tell those of us who do actually live here what the population is, what gentrification was/isn't and what it was like to live here, among other things that were not entirely accurate. Had it been a discussion about Dominican history and population characteristics as it pertains to the US/NYC, it would've been a different story. I am merely discussing political and historical events of the DR, from the past, mind you, and I do not have to live there to know that there is a problem with uncontrolled Haitian migration, that Trujillo built institutions that stand and function to this day and the political leanings/motivations of some of the individuals involved in the assassination of Trujillo and his removal from power. Now, what I can't tell anyone in DR is what it's like to live there and what realities they are facing on a day-to-day basis or what their communities are or aren't because I don't actually live there.
I clearly gave examples of some individuals that wanted to get rid of Trujillo who were communists such as Manolo Tavarez Justo, Juan Bosch, 14 de Junio participants, Cayo Confites (someone else mentioned this one not me). I didn't state those in his inner circle were communists.
Yet it was him that was backstabbed by several individuals that had greatly benefitted off of him during his tenure.
Saying there were substantial improvements is being a bit dishonest. Trujillo completely rebuilt Santo Domingo after San Zenon and built most of the still functioning national instituations working to this day. He built most of the infrastructure, revamped the education system, reduced crime, 'dominicanized' border towns that were invaded by Haitians and gave the Dominicans who moved there incentives such as land and housing, the capital and the country was clean and neat, in order, paid off our national debt, the Dominican peso was on par with the USD (or even above it, at times)...it was because of all of these things, especially the reconstruction of SD after San Zenon, that his supporters suggested the capital be renamed 'Ciudad Trujillo', and, ironically, one of the biggest supporters of the renaming of the city was none other than Juan Bosch, whom also worked under Trujillo's government, benefitted off of him and then was a backstabber.
Who's the one calling people here names and making condescending remarks? If that's not going down a rabbit hole, then what is?
Agreed that democracy doesn't have to equate to corruption, but Latin America has been a pretty bad example of this, and DR is not the exception. The only time the DR was a respectable nation was under Trujillo, we don't have to agree on this, the events speak for themselves. Also, I said he had plenty of faults, like most leaders, I never said he was perfect. Dominicans only understand 'mano dura' such as the ones that Trujillo and later Balaguer had in order to maintain discipline and order, leniency does not bode well with the Dominican population and it would be naive to not see how much Dominican society has declined under more 'liberal' and 'democratic' governments versus more authoritarian ones, so I guess, my answer to your question of my opinions of Dominicans being 'low' is unfortunately correct. We have the potential and have many bright individuals (such as yourself), but, it is not ppl like you that are at the helm.
So, if I had a choice of having DR in the state it is today and what it was during Trujillo, and even Balaguer, I would choose the last two, without hesitation.
Where do I begin....
That's not going down the rabbit hole. You're just thin skinned. Thin skin people couldn't survive under Trujillo. El jefe dished out incredible levels of abuse and humiliation. I don't know why you think you could have survived under him; you wouldn't have.
And once again, I'm going to tell you (in vain, no doubt) that the communists had nothing to do with Trujillo's assassination. The people who killed Trujillo (and those on the periphery) were among the leaders of the anti-communist forces in the 1965 civil war. I don't know why you insist on going on about these people. I really don't.
Trujillo benefited from international aid to rebuild Santo Domingo, too. Yes, he hired some great urban planners. However, some of the key projects completed under Trujillo (like the country's largest bridge) where projects started by the previous government. Trujillo took credit for all of it. The American military was also involved in projects.
But, yes, as I have been pointing out for years, Trujillo created a world class infrastructure. Trujillo did a lot, but he also stole huge amounts of land and property. The best land and homes ended up as his private property. Trujillo's fortune was stolen. One estimate I read was that Trujillo had $800 million. How much would that be worth today?
Trujillo committed mass murder. Untold numbers of Haitians were murdered by Trujillo's soldiers. Is that what you are advocating now? I'm all for controlling illegal immigration, but genocide is not the way to do it.
This was done out of fear. Trujillo demanded adulation. Sigh... They also named dozens of streets after him, a mountain, and just about everything else that wasn't nailed down.
You can talk about how the people that 'benefited' from Trujillo killed him, but you don't seem to realize that Trujillo was the only game in town. You either worked with him, or you were destitute. He micromanaged the economy. If you wanted a job, or wanted to start your own business, you had to cut a deal with El Jefe. You had to be on his good side just to have a job. Many of the people you talk about did not become rich under Trujillo. Imbert and de la Maza came from extremely wealthy families. Many of these people were the children and grandchildren of former presidents and warlords. They had lost land, property, and money to Trujillo. Many of them were lucky if they could hold onto their fortunes. The idea that Trujillo made these people rich is false.
You have spun this out as far as you can. You refuse to see anything but the achievements of El Jefe, but none of the horrendous bad that he did. I have always written of Trujillo's accomplishments--they were very real--but I have never lost sight of his cruelty and his regimes incredible brutality. I believe in fair analysis, not white washing.
That's not going down the rabbit hole. You're just thin skinned. Thin skin people couldn't survive under Trujillo. El jefe dished out incredible levels of abuse and humiliation. I don't know why you think you could have survived under him; you wouldn't have.
And once again, I'm going to tell you (in vain, no doubt) that the communists had nothing to do with Trujillo's assassination. The people who killed Trujillo (and those on the periphery) were among the leaders of the anti-communist forces in the 1965 civil war. I don't know why you insist on going on about these people. I really don't.
The previous government did have functioning institutions. It's not fair to say Trujillo 'created' all of them. Did he create the army? No. Did he create banks and a foreign ministry? No. Previous governments had all kinds of functioning government agencies. Yes, his achievements were impressive, but the DR was not a total wasteland when he seized power.
Trujillo benefited from international aid to rebuild Santo Domingo, too. Yes, he hired some great urban planners. However, some of the key projects completed under Trujillo (like the country's largest bridge) where projects started by the previous government. Trujillo took credit for all of it. The American military was also involved in projects.
But, yes, as I have been pointing out for years, Trujillo created a world class infrastructure. Trujillo did a lot, but he also stole huge amounts of land and property. The best land and homes ended up as his private property. Trujillo's fortune was stolen. One estimate I read was that Trujillo had $800 million. How much would that be worth today?
True, Trujillo's gains in education were impressive, but he also rolled back reforms on women's education put in place by the previous government. Also, to be fair to the previous government, it was involved in educational reforms. The government didn't survive long enough to do much of anything before Trujillo swept it away.
Trujillo committed mass murder. Untold numbers of Haitians were murdered by Trujillo's soldiers. Is that what you are advocating now? I'm all for controlling illegal immigration, but genocide is not the way to do it.
This was done out of fear. Trujillo demanded adulation. Sigh... They also named dozens of streets after him, a mountain, and just about everything else that wasn't nailed down.
You can talk about how the people that 'benefited' from Trujillo killed him, but you don't seem to realize that Trujillo was the only game in town. You either worked with him, or you were destitute. He micromanaged the economy. If you wanted a job, or wanted to start your own business, you had to cut a deal with El Jefe. You had to be on his good side just to have a job. Many of the people you talk about did not become rich under Trujillo. Imbert and de la Maza came from extremely wealthy families. Many of these people were the children and grandchildren of former presidents and warlords. They had lost land, property, and money to Trujillo. Many of them were lucky if they could hold onto their fortunes. The idea that Trujillo made these people rich is false.
You have spun this out as far as you can. You refuse to see anything but the achievements of El Jefe, but none of the horrendous bad that he did. I have always written of Trujillo's accomplishments--they were very real--but I have never lost sight of his cruelty and his regimes incredible brutality. I believe in fair analysis, not white washing.
The last thing I am is thin-skinned, believe me. You can continue to call the criticism of your disrespectful and condescending remarks to anyone who challenged you on here being 'thin-skinned'...I and others here will probably continue to think otherwise.
Again, I will tell you that they had all the intentions of killing him. Yes, they were ultimately not involved in his actual assassination but if you want to believe they weren't going to kill him had their invasions succeeded, then I guess I can sell you a bridge.
Which institutions were created by Baez, Heureux, etc? Are they all still functioning today??
Trujillo created most of the institutions in the country and they are still functioning today.
He didn't create banks?? Are you serious? He created the Banco de Reservas, Banco Central, Banco Agricola....not only that, but he brought over German economists to advise and help run these institutions.
I can't list all of the works and national industries/companies created by Trujillo as the post would be too long, but many of the companies and industries he created are now owned by the Dominican "elites". Many of the highways such as la Carretera Duarte, El Puente Duarte, parks such Eugenio Maria de Hostos (fka Parque Ramfis), RTVD, Periodico Caribe, numerous hotels, among them El Hotel Jaragua, Los Molinos, etc. were all created by Trujillo, the fact that he received US-funding and aid doesn't take away any less merit, at least he put the money he was lent to use, took advantage of available American resources and paid it all back. Nowadays, Dominican governments request funding, steal it and then pass on the burden to the citizens.
Trujillo took away lands that had many illegal squatters, both Haitian and Dominican and created National Parks with much of that "stolen" land. Regarding education, almost 90% of the country was illiterate when he took office, and the UASD barely had 400 students. By the time his tenure was over, primary education attendance was mandatory and the UASD had over 3,000 students....
This is up for dispute. Where are the mass graves? How come they've never been found? How many times had Trujillo told Stenio Vincent to address the issue of his countryfolk illegally crossing into the DR? Before the historian Bernardo Vega become a pro-Haitian traitor, he had concluded that based on his research the amount of Haitains killed was less than 3,000, and, this was an effort of mainly the Dominican campesinos that were tired of Haitians illegally occupying their lands and stealing their cattle and other animals...(ironically this is happening again today)
Interesting, you exclude how many of those that benefitted from him were rich then and are rich now, not sure how fear had anything to do with that. I don't feel any pity for traitors such as de la Maza and Imbert, as you mentioned they were and still very wealthy, Imbert I don't feel any for pity for as he himself was a merciless asesino for no reason. I can say you have also spun this in your own way, you paint Imbert as some sort of respectable hero and want to highlight the supposed wrongdoings of El Jefe, without taking into account context and other factors that weigh into some of his actions.
That is what I have heard and from close family members of General Antonio Imbert Barrera.
Most of you are not aware, that we have an ex-poster on this board that is directly related to General Antonio Imbert Barrera's family. Plus 1 or 2 active posters that also had family members involved in the fringes of taking down Trujillo.
On another note...
Cut out the back and forth slanging match. If you are going to debate, do it like adults, not 10yr old kids, of you will find your access revoked, CNN Acosta style!