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Questions about Santo Domingo living for a single Black American male
This is a perfect example of what I meant in my previous post.
Cornrows is not considered a decent hairstyle. Its often associated with ghetto Dominicanyorks and deportees, drug dealers, etc. Undesirable low class people.
That's the stereotype and you got treated accordingly.
I'm not saying it was right, BUT it seems you were a victim of classism but are interpreting it as racism.
-NALs
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Junot Diaz once said that "the racism of the DR prepared me for the racism of the US."
The only problem I have with this is that he left the DR at a very young age (6 or 7 years old).
Are kids of that age conscious of any act of racism? Are they class conscious? Can they distinguish the two?
I don't think so, but if someone knows about this, post away....
All in all, me and him don't really see eye-to-eye on this and a few other topics. He seems oblivious to what classism is, BUT this could simply be the result of being acculturated to the American way of seeing things, which often puts emphasis on race while ignores class.
-NALs
But see, here's the part that you miss, if you get a white boy with cornrows out of a resort and put him in the group, he gets in, and it has NOTHING to do with class. I stand by my post and whether you call it classism or racism, the fact of the matter is that it happens to people of dark skin way more than than it happens to light-skinned or whites.
Which was the point I was trying to make to the OP: They'll call it whatever they feel like calling it, but he better be prepared to be treated differently on the basis of his skin, at least till they figure out he's not Dominican or a Dominican-York.
Look, I'm not saying you are totally off-base, and I will admit those stereotypes of drug dealers, criminals and such originate with the coverage and the news of what happens in the U.S., to wit, people in expensive suits have done more damage to the U.S. (and to the DR) than anyone in 'rows or locs ever has. To reiterate my point, I'm not here to argue the origins or what is in people's hearts when they act a certain way against others. But for the OP, let's say he decides to grow 'rows, which are perfectly acceptable in corporate and other business environments, he's going to be held to a different standard based on the color of his skin.
white (or light skinned) boy or girl with cornrows = tourist + being let in
dark (or black) boy or girl with cornrows = ghetto, drug dealer + barred from entry.
Now what part of that doesn't strike you of racism. The other thing is when you say stuff like "that's the stereotype and you got treated accordingly." You are basically condoning the status quo, and reminds me of a quote from Medgar Evers about how one of the obstacles to social change was the "'failure of the so-called decent or moderate white person to take a positive and uncompromising stand against racism."
It basically comes off as "I don't think it's right, but that's just the way it is. Deal with it." Which is fine, whatever, as long as we are honest about what it actually goes wrong. And I think Junot is wrong on the PhD analogy, the U.S. still has the PhD, but let's not act like DR doesn't have at least a Bachelor's.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
I've seen many white and light skin mulattoes males denied entry to clubs for simple things such as having an earring and only after they removed such earrings they were allowed in.
I doubt a white gringo with cornrows from some resort will be allowed in a non-touristy well-to-do club; especially if they are with a few Dominican "friends" since in that case, such white gringo will be considered a loose (if a woman) or a sex tourist, all of whom are looked down upon in Dominican society, despite their white skin and dollars.
White tourists are often not allowed entry to some cultural sights in SD for wearing shorts, and those are actual tourist attractions! One might think that they would make exception in such places, but no. Dominican cultural norm is upheld in such places too.
I think both would be denied entry. I've seen it with my own eyes, albeit not with cornrows, but definitely with other aspects. People denied entry for things that to a person with an American outlook on life might appear trivial and senseless, but in the DR its a serious status 'offense.'TheMindFrame said:
Try going to a government building with shorts to see what will happen. Consider yourself lucky if you're not stopped at the door and asked to leave for not adhering to the dress code. They don't care if you are there to pay taxes, you will be turned away.
That's not racism.
Everyone knows that racism is present everywhere, DR included. I simply notice that most cases of 'racism' in the DR have little to do with race and more with socio-economic class. Its almost always Americans and/or Dominicanyorks with an American outlook that make the racism claims. Plenty of other non-white people visit and live in the DR, and such claims are hardly as numerous as it is among a certain group of Americans and I think the American way of interpreting race and the relative lack of class consciousness is the reason for this.TheMindFrame said:
And I never implied that people should simply 'deal with it', but in order for the correct solution to be applied, the correct problem must be diagnosed.
Its impossible to control the common cold with headache medicine.
-NALs
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Yes they do at that early an age. Most certainly not a conscious decision, just some distinguishing they pick up from the older ones, but surprisingly accurate. Local kids can tell a local from a Haitian of a gringo prieto even only seeing them from the back. Not only skin color, it's the cloths, the stance or walking... Racism it is certainly not yet in most cases... but the foundations to it, most probably.
... J-D.
Tallboy,
I am an American of African decent living and running a busines in the DR and it is in fact racist as hell. You can have a good time here but you must stay away from low lifes and they unfortunately are damm near everywhere.
You will be discriminated against, trudt me. But the rule where I come from, Alabama is that you do the Alabama fold and give them the Jerry Lee Lewis salute. That is fold your money and put it back in your pocket and tell them to kiss your Black ass. Simple as that.
What Domincian fail to understand is that Black America is an $800 billion dollar ecomony and that the color of money is not white but green. Do not expect common coutesy therfore you will not be surprised.
There are diamond here you just have to look for them. Trust God and dead men everyone is suspect. If harrassed by the police tell them arrest me and call my embassey; then they go and find another sucker.
Expect to be openly shadowed in any store from a local market to a mall.
These have got to be the dumbest mother****er I have every seen. We beat the **** out of real White people and we are suppose to come here and have imatation "white men" treat us like dogs. Total Bull****.
Come on down enjoy and be careful. Never trust the living and walk carefully around the dead. There is no law here and the US Embassey is full of candyasses waiting of their pensions.
Bearcat
I am an American of African decent living and running a busines in the DR and it is in fact racist as hell. You can have a good time here but you must stay away from low lifes and they unfortunately are damm near everywhere.
You will be discriminated against, trudt me. But the rule where I come from, Alabama is that you do the Alabama fold and give them the Jerry Lee Lewis salute. That is fold your money and put it back in your pocket and tell them to kiss your Black ass. Simple as that.
What Domincian fail to understand is that Black America is an $800 billion dollar ecomony and that the color of money is not white but green. Do not expect common coutesy therfore you will not be surprised.
There are diamond here you just have to look for them. Trust God and dead men everyone is suspect. If harrassed by the police tell them arrest me and call my embassey; then they go and find another sucker.
Expect to be openly shadowed in any store from a local market to a mall.
These have got to be the dumbest mother****er I have every seen. We beat the **** out of real White people and we are suppose to come here and have imatation "white men" treat us like dogs. Total Bull****.
Come on down enjoy and be careful. Never trust the living and walk carefully around the dead. There is no law here and the US Embassey is full of candyasses waiting of their pensions.
Bearcat
I am very happy here!
It is not I who has the issues it is the Dominicans, I AM VERY HAPPY HERE! I obey the law and mind my own business. I do not think or believe that anyone here or anywhere else owes me anything. I do not befriend people to rob them.
I did not make my lawyers petty conmen they are ready were. They were paid in full and fired.
We did not make the applicants for our jobs illiterate they unfortunately were that way when we came here.
I am here because we have not become party to the orgy of denial and self serving behavior.
Bearcat
It is not I who has the issues it is the Dominicans, I AM VERY HAPPY HERE! I obey the law and mind my own business. I do not think or believe that anyone here or anywhere else owes me anything. I do not befriend people to rob them.
I did not make my lawyers petty conmen they are ready were. They were paid in full and fired.
We did not make the applicants for our jobs illiterate they unfortunately were that way when we came here.
I am here because we have not become party to the orgy of denial and self serving behavior.
Bearcat
While Bearcat might lack some finesse in expressing his opinions regarding life in the DR, his observations are none the less as valid as anyone's.
Bearcat's tendency to generalize might seem extreme to some. However, if you observe enough of a particular behavior, such as so-called friends trying to rip you off every time you turn around, and then dealing with large numbers of people who cannot read or write the most basic text, you might be tempted to draw the same general conclusions as he does.
It might seem unfair to label every Dominican lawyer as a "petty conman", but there are certainly enough of that kind around to make even the most jaded student of jurisprudence blanch. It also might be incorrect to assume the vast majority of Dominicans are illiterate, but the literacy rate is so abysmal, with no remedy in sight, that the situation is extremely difficult to ignore, and most definitely see it as a massive problem here.
The same goes for racism (as opposed to classism, which in itself is bad enough). There is enough racism in the DR to be very noticeable. Often it is overlapped with classism, but that certainly does not diminish the harm it does to the culture.
In fact, the overlapping with classism is often used as a way to excuse racist behavior. For example, it is so much nicer to say, "Sorry, you can't be here because you are a low-life moto-concho." than it is to say, "Sorry, you have to leave because you are Haitian."
As with anything, there are exceptions to all these descriptions of racism. However, the bottom line is this, there is enough of this type of behavior throughout the DR to be noticed by many, and I think it is fair to say that many people are adversely affected by the behaviors associated with racism on a daily basis.
Bearcat's tendency to generalize might seem extreme to some. However, if you observe enough of a particular behavior, such as so-called friends trying to rip you off every time you turn around, and then dealing with large numbers of people who cannot read or write the most basic text, you might be tempted to draw the same general conclusions as he does.
It might seem unfair to label every Dominican lawyer as a "petty conman", but there are certainly enough of that kind around to make even the most jaded student of jurisprudence blanch. It also might be incorrect to assume the vast majority of Dominicans are illiterate, but the literacy rate is so abysmal, with no remedy in sight, that the situation is extremely difficult to ignore, and most definitely see it as a massive problem here.
The same goes for racism (as opposed to classism, which in itself is bad enough). There is enough racism in the DR to be very noticeable. Often it is overlapped with classism, but that certainly does not diminish the harm it does to the culture.
In fact, the overlapping with classism is often used as a way to excuse racist behavior. For example, it is so much nicer to say, "Sorry, you can't be here because you are a low-life moto-concho." than it is to say, "Sorry, you have to leave because you are Haitian."
As with anything, there are exceptions to all these descriptions of racism. However, the bottom line is this, there is enough of this type of behavior throughout the DR to be noticed by many, and I think it is fair to say that many people are adversely affected by the behaviors associated with racism on a daily basis.
In the case of Nowhere, which was (no longer open) by no means an upity club, I would have to say that's a case of racisim. I'm 100% positive that in the case of a white guy wearing corn rows (too funny) that they would let them in. They might not let in somebody with shorts, no matter what colour, but the hair thing is retarded. There are a few clubs that will deny entry to blacks, Praia, for instance is known for this, as are other clubs. On the bright side, these clubs are full of snotty people, and not really worth the time or money spent in them. There are several other spots that aren't as stuck up.
Being rejected for a hairstyle is plain retarded no matter how you put it, classist or racist. But if you want a simple analogy which of the 2 it really is, answering the following questions should give a hint: What percentage of dominican women straighten their hair? what is unstraightened hair generally referred to? The DR seems to generally deny any African roots - which is odd, given the amount of people with African roots on some sort of level. I think it could have something to do with differentiating themselves from Haitians, but cannot say for sure.
Somoeone asked about Hip Hop, PM me, I used to run a night, and will probably be getting back into that sometime soon.
Being rejected for a hairstyle is plain retarded no matter how you put it, classist or racist. But if you want a simple analogy which of the 2 it really is, answering the following questions should give a hint: What percentage of dominican women straighten their hair? what is unstraightened hair generally referred to? The DR seems to generally deny any African roots - which is odd, given the amount of people with African roots on some sort of level. I think it could have something to do with differentiating themselves from Haitians, but cannot say for sure.
Somoeone asked about Hip Hop, PM me, I used to run a night, and will probably be getting back into that sometime soon.
Racism is classism. Its roots are in slavery. The colonial rulers quickly realized they could not control their slaves in these distant outposts far from the law of Europe, if the empathy that was developing between white slaves and black slaves was permitted to continue in its development. So they separated the slaves into different classes with different working conditions and nurtured the cultural empathy that existed between fellow Europeans by giving the Europeans (white slaves) preferential tasks and treatment.
Yes. They can feel the hate, they just haven?t learned to dish it back yet.
I would say that of you.
So what are you saying? It sounds like it?s OK with you to hate him because he might be poor, as long as you don?t hate him because he?s dark or light.
It depends really...
Blacks that are really dark with very african features are looked down on in many circles unless you know people and they know your american. There is racism here but when they know your american you will be fine. And those that are racist are always of a lighter complexion so I guess it depends on if your ok with that. You should be fine though, much of the racism is against the haitians that they associate with the dark complexion.
You gonna have a good time, especially when you get your first Dominican gf, i'm jealous. What r u doin down there anyway?
Blacks that are really dark with very african features are looked down on in many circles unless you know people and they know your american. There is racism here but when they know your american you will be fine. And those that are racist are always of a lighter complexion so I guess it depends on if your ok with that. You should be fine though, much of the racism is against the haitians that they associate with the dark complexion.
You gonna have a good time, especially when you get your first Dominican gf, i'm jealous. What r u doin down there anyway?
tallboy, I am black and Jamaican. I don't live in the DR but I have travelled their many times. Can't say I have experienced any overt racism with regards to being denied entrance anywhere not saying it doesn't happen but never experienced it. I have been to a few clubs where I was the only person of colour (yeah, odd for a country full of them) but was never refuse entry. I would hazard to say that it isn't that common but again not saying it doesn't happen. I haven't been followed in any stores and I would have noticed it because it is something I would be aware of but that said there is racism in the DR. However, it is not prevalent enough for you to be concerned. I have experienced more overt racism in other parts of Latin America (Peru and Colombia) and would not discourage you from visiting those places so I would definitely would not steer you away from the DR. Go and enjoy the place, there are certain realities you have deal with being black but it shouldn't affect your enjoying travelling. As for women, what you experience depends on your Spanish and how you carry yourself. The peculiarities of third world classism is similar to that of Jamaica.
Yo no quiero saver de prietos, pero las negritas me encantan..
My grand dad used to say this phase; and this a Dominican reallity, you can see that the light sking guys prefere the dark sking girls and visceversa. that is the reason we have so many pretty girls in the DR.
La morena, considered as the pretiest woman in the work, I like Julio Iglesias's song "Baila morena baila".....
JJ
My grand dad used to say this phase; and this a Dominican reallity, you can see that the light sking guys prefere the dark sking girls and visceversa. that is the reason we have so many pretty girls in the DR.
La morena, considered as the pretiest woman in the work, I like Julio Iglesias's song "Baila morena baila".....
JJ