Isn't it the opposite regarding Dominicans living in the DR? Don't they look up to Dominican Yorks for having the ability to be there?NY1 said:
- Thread starter RubioVargas
- Start date
"Real" Dominicans
Say........ very interesting topic here and I've a few tid bits to add. Ok, I think one of the most difficult aspects of being a minority(as dominicans in america are), is that minorities are typically subject to stereotyping. Based upon behavior(fill in the sort)of some members of(fill in group). Unfortunately, a lot of innocent, hard working minorities don't often get noterioty and are lumpep together with the bad apples of the bunch. I think that's a part of the angst being articulated here.
On the loud-mouthed, crass beahavior and irresponsible lifestyles of some dominicans in u.s. that was mentioned in this thread: I don't think that simply living in america has brought this on. Truth be told, dominicans are often loud-mouthed in the DR. Not to mention that there's a lot of irresponsible people in the DR. Most of us here are aware that absentee fathersim is common in the DR and most babies are born out of wedlock there.
Now, on the issue of outsiders expecting dominicans to be black or percieving them as black; The reasoning is simple, the majority of dominicans(especially those who come to the u.s. and abroad) mostly register as blacks in the eyes of most americans. It's that bloody simple! Outside of haitians, the vast majority of blacks in the americas have some degree of racial admixture, but the trend has always been to view them as black. For example, most americans view tiger woods as that great young black golpher. Regardless of the fact that his mother is thai. That's just the thing... the spectrum for what constitutes a black person in the u.s. is very broad. Anything from coal black and very african looking to light-skinned & near-white looking. Many dominicans fall within that spectrum. Get it?
On the loud-mouthed, crass beahavior and irresponsible lifestyles of some dominicans in u.s. that was mentioned in this thread: I don't think that simply living in america has brought this on. Truth be told, dominicans are often loud-mouthed in the DR. Not to mention that there's a lot of irresponsible people in the DR. Most of us here are aware that absentee fathersim is common in the DR and most babies are born out of wedlock there.
Now, on the issue of outsiders expecting dominicans to be black or percieving them as black; The reasoning is simple, the majority of dominicans(especially those who come to the u.s. and abroad) mostly register as blacks in the eyes of most americans. It's that bloody simple! Outside of haitians, the vast majority of blacks in the americas have some degree of racial admixture, but the trend has always been to view them as black. For example, most americans view tiger woods as that great young black golpher. Regardless of the fact that his mother is thai. That's just the thing... the spectrum for what constitutes a black person in the u.s. is very broad. Anything from coal black and very african looking to light-skinned & near-white looking. Many dominicans fall within that spectrum. Get it?
Indeed!
Are we forgetting that the vast majority of black dominicans are poor?. Since most poor people are black or mulatos if you may, ask yourselves: who are the ones that need to come and better themselves?. Answer: the vast majority. If the vast majority is black/mulatos, then that's all the guest-country sees.
The Dominican Republic has about 9 million people of which:
73% are "criollos"
16% are whites
11% are blacks(not counting people from Haiti).
CORRECTOMUNDO!!.carl ericson70 said:
Are we forgetting that the vast majority of black dominicans are poor?. Since most poor people are black or mulatos if you may, ask yourselves: who are the ones that need to come and better themselves?. Answer: the vast majority. If the vast majority is black/mulatos, then that's all the guest-country sees.
The Dominican Republic has about 9 million people of which:
73% are "criollos"
16% are whites
11% are blacks(not counting people from Haiti).
I think everybody "get it".carl ericson70 said:
However, what many people (or maybe it's just me) don't get is the following about US classifications:
Mix anybody with African blood and they are considered black or Afro-Americans. That is understood.
Now, mix a white with anything else other than black, and if they look white enough, they are still considered white!
Why is there this double standards in that country? Mix a white with black and even if he/she looks white, he/she will be considered black, but if the mixture was white and Native American, suddenly the person is still white and not mestizo.
That is what I don't get. I have a few American friends who clearly know and often point out that they have Cherokee indian blood mixed with their white blood, but they still consider themselves white. That would not be so if it was African blood, despite if they look white.
Why is that the case? And, why is it hard for many people from there to accept other people's correct assumption of categorizing mixed people as mix rather than bunching them into one group or the other?
This is where I'm confused.
miguel said:
Alright let's not start another long threaded discussion about Dominican skin colors. Two weeks ago a thread titled "Dominican and their ancestry" was closed because of this. People were getting too emotional.
On the other hand, I think most of us Dominicans are "inadapatados sociales", the things that tick me off the most is the unnecessary loud conversations, confrontational arguing and throwing garbage everywhere when there is a receptacle a few feet away. It is pitiful how Broadway looks, it is as dirty as la avenida Duarte. Please paisanos we are in a foreign land and we must abide by their living conditions. If you want to live in a dump, go back to your barrios, bateyes and so on.
Escott said:
It depends on your socioeconomic baseline and cohort group for comparisons.
If, regardless of your physical attributes (Black,WHite, Mixed,etc..), you are from campesino stock or if you are unskilled laborer from a marginalized urban area and you manage to make it to the US, of course your family and friends are going to see you as a success because your economic opportunities are greater there.
If you are from the middle-class some may see you as a "loser" who couldn't cut it here (DR) and had to "migrate" just like the poor folks do. If you are a professional who went to further your education, then it tends to be viewed positively.
If you are from the upper middle-class or from the socioeconomic elite, you are just taking an extended vacation overseas or else figured it more intellectually challenging to live in a 1st world environment. Funny, in the US I used to receive monetary subsidies from family in the DR, as opposed to the usual direction of overseas Dominicans helping their folks back in the island by sending remittances.
:glasses:
- Tordok
I think this is so for the following reason:
If you live comfortably here and (assuming no crisis or a crisis but you still manage to live comfortably) you move out of the country, then you are seen as a type of traitor. I suspect this has to do with the notion of "only sticking around when everything is good, but when things get a bit tough quickly picks up and leaves", almost the "vividor" syndrome.
It is acceptable to spend a month or so (among this class) in Miami or elsewhere, but anything longer than that brings suspicion on his/her circle of influence here.
I suppose the reason here lies in image. Being a part of upper class and upper-middle class means being successful, at least to the naked eye. This is Dominican living ala good life and if a person of this status flees the country for no apparent reason, then its perceived that the person was not as economically sound as once thought. This could have very negative effects on his/her business and friend circles and could lead to eventual loss of admiration, respect, etc among those who are in this status still living here.
This is very interesting. Reverse remittances, I wonder how much money flows in such direction?
here we go again.
to some of you: we already know that you think that you are whiter and you think you are richer and you think you are better educated than the rest of us "real" Dominicans.
If you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth....then power to you. But don't call that an accomplishment.
to some of you: we already know that you think that you are whiter and you think you are richer and you think you are better educated than the rest of us "real" Dominicans.
If you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth....then power to you. But don't call that an accomplishment.
Stodgord said:
Have to agree with you Stodgard, on both parts of your comment. This thread definitely isn't about the racial composition of Dominicans. It's simply about how Dominicans living in the U.S. are much too often less-than-model citizens and how in many cases it even seems that they're proud of their bad reputation. Not to sound redundant, but they basically missrepresent us.
mondongo,
Just because some of us don't fit your image of what a real Dominican is or should be, does not erase the reality that these Dominicans do exist. There is a tendency to dismiss the minority as not real. Just because in this case that group may be the privileged one does not take away the fact they they are as Dominican as the rest.
No one makes a prenatal request to the Almighty to be born with a silver spoon. I agree that it is not an accomplisment to be born with one, but it is not something to be ashamed of either, and this certainly does not make one to be less of a Dominican for it.
I was just trying to convey the fact to Escott (based on his question of how migrants may always be favorably viewed on the island)- that there is no monolithic way to do things a certain Dominican way, or that certain attitudes are shared by ALL Dominicans and somehow if you don't, then you are less than authentic.
The fact is that the universe of Dominicanhood is much larger than whatever few aspects of it you have managed to experience. You cannot exclude me from being Dominican just because we don't share similar demographic factors or socioeconomic experiences.
May very well be that I am part of a minority that is nonrepresentative of the majority, but I am Dominican, and I am real too.
- Tordok
:cross-eye
Just because some of us don't fit your image of what a real Dominican is or should be, does not erase the reality that these Dominicans do exist. There is a tendency to dismiss the minority as not real. Just because in this case that group may be the privileged one does not take away the fact they they are as Dominican as the rest.
No one makes a prenatal request to the Almighty to be born with a silver spoon. I agree that it is not an accomplisment to be born with one, but it is not something to be ashamed of either, and this certainly does not make one to be less of a Dominican for it.
I was just trying to convey the fact to Escott (based on his question of how migrants may always be favorably viewed on the island)- that there is no monolithic way to do things a certain Dominican way, or that certain attitudes are shared by ALL Dominicans and somehow if you don't, then you are less than authentic.
The fact is that the universe of Dominicanhood is much larger than whatever few aspects of it you have managed to experience. You cannot exclude me from being Dominican just because we don't share similar demographic factors or socioeconomic experiences.
May very well be that I am part of a minority that is nonrepresentative of the majority, but I am Dominican, and I am real too.
- Tordok
:cross-eye
Tordok said:
Tordok,
Being Dominican is not just being born in the island, it also comes with the culture. If you don't display the typical Dominican culture how do you expect people to know whether you are Dominican or not. And I don't mean displaying "el tigueraje" but being able to identify with the music, the dance, the food, the past time (like dominoes), problems of the community, and the gathering of people to celebrate a birthday, graduation, christmas, new year, and so on. I have had problems identifying Dominicans (white, Black and trigue?os) until I hear and see them express themselves as well as many Dominicans think I am Hindu until they see me or hear me express myself. Like you said the only thing that would categorize you as Dominican was your love for Baseball, but this game is also shared by Americans (blacks and whites), so you did not stand out.
In the US you can tell someones ethnic background either by his name or by the ways he expresses his culture. You won't know someone is Italian until you hear him express himself or you know his last name, samething goes for the Irish and othe ethnic groups in the US.
Stodgord said:
Stodgord,
Thank you for your feedback. I think that I understand your reasoning.
I also know that I may be promoting division, when in fact the complete opposite is my aim.
My issue was with the concept that some around the boards have, that in order to be considered "a real" or "true" Dominican any given individual must fit a rigid set of physical attributes and/or cultural affinities that, in my mind, just serve to perpetuate stereotypical mindsets about our nationality and in fact pretty much any nationality around the world. I find that there is an effort by some to reduce our national identity to a just few, sort of prepackaged clich?s, and this in my view is not always consistent with my experience as a Dominican. We need to value the culture, but within each culture there must be room for the possibility of diversity among individuals.
Just because someone was brought up in different circumstances within the same general culture does not automatically exlude that person from being authentically identified with that culture. Every society has "mass" or popular culture, but also other subcultures. Like I told someone in a PM yesterday: its a shame that even some of the well-educated among the posters (foreigners and Dominicans alike) purposefully fail to acknowledge or go to great lenghts to reject the notion that people like me do exist. They either think that we are lying as in a shameful cover- up of an unacknowledged Africanness, or else, that we are somehow showing off and feeling superior to them. Framed that way, it doesn't matter how reasonably, honestly, and respectfully I state those facts I will always end up with either the distrust of the public opinion on the board or its outright hostility. That, of course, is a 'can't win situation' over which I have no control.
Just because I chose to assert how I may be different with regards to possibly most Dominicans, that in no way takes away how in many ways I
am like most Dominicans. The issue is that there is a reverse form of classism, in which even well-intentioned individuals from the upper middle-classes are rejected by others who can't see how is it that someone can be both well educated and Dominican, or Euro-Dominican, or Buddhist-Dominican.
Using broad-brushes when trying to paint such an important thing as national character or identity inevitably leads to exclusion and rejection. I don't believe that I want or deserve to be excluded from identifying with Dominicanhood, just because others - even if they are the plurality - happen to think that I don't qualify.
cheers,
- Tordok
Thy words are good
You deliver much reason with your words. I as a Dominican-American have never acted nor been viewed by other people as being Dominican. I wasn't brought up in the typical Dominican neighborhoods, nonetheless, the Dominican culture and language have always been strong in my household. My siblings and I were brought up to be good citizens of society who attend school, get a good education, and later have a family brought up with those good mannerisms. As far as the physical appearance, my family consists of Spanish influence and Caribbean influence (or probably African influence). We have never looked like Dominicans for this reason, but haven't regarded what society has to say. My parents came to this country for a better life for them and for the offspring that would follow. We don't attempt to act a certain way or deny any racial roots, we just try to be good people to everyone and to work for our money to live a decent life. In other words, we just want to be in this country to live the life that would be difficult to live in the old country. If society wants to think that we are trying to be better than the average Dominican or Latin-American in general, then that's their problem. After all, they don't support us.
As far the typical Dominican and his/her behavior, many quisqueyanos today may change their way of life via a religious movement called the Charismatic Renovation (which is usually in Spanish). This movement consists of religious groups and retreats, where people seek the Lord Jesus and acknowledge their sinful nature to him and ask for pardon. This movement is very strong in the old country D.R. My family members have been living satisfying lives in the Lord for over 10 years, and my parents have their own prayer group. Most of all, this thing has changed my life, since I had a difficult situation before these religious gatherings were encountered.
This may be a little off topic here, but it's something I wanted to mention as a means of Dominicans in general saving their souls and living a life in Christ.
To finish, we should be proud of who we are, regardless of what society thinks. It's not a perfect world and we can never make it one.
Peace and sunshine!
Hey, Tordok,Tordok said:Stodgord,
Thank you for your feedback. I think that I understand your reasoning.
I also know that I may be promoting division, when in fact the complete opposite is my aim.
My issue was with the concept that some around the boards have, that in order to be considered "a real" or "true" Dominican any given individual must fit a rigid set of physical attributes and/or cultural affinities that, in my mind, just serve to perpetuate stereotypical mindsets about our nationality and in fact pretty much any nationality around the world. I find that there is an effort by some to reduce our national identity to a just few, sort of prepackaged clich?s, and this in my view is not always consistent with my experience as a Dominican. We need to value the culture, but within each culture there must be room for the possibility of diversity among individuals.
Just because someone was brought up in different circumstances within the same general culture does not automatically exlude that person from being authentically identified with that culture. Every society has "mass" or popular culture, but also other subcultures. Like I told someone in a PM yesterday: its a shame that even some of the well-educated among the posters (foreigners and Dominicans alike) purposefully fail to acknowledge or go to great lenghts to reject the notion that people like me do exist. They either think that we are lying as in a shameful cover- up of an unacknowledged Africanness, or else, that we are somehow showing off and feeling superior to them. Framed that way, it doesn't matter how reasonably, honestly, and respectfully I state those facts I will always end up with either the distrust of the public opinion on the board or its outright hostility. That, of course, is a 'can't win situation' over which I have no control.
Just because I chose to assert how I may be different with regards to possibly most Dominicans, that in no way takes away how in many ways I
am like most Dominicans. The issue is that there is a reverse form of classism, in which even well-intentioned individuals from the upper middle-classes are rejected by others who can't see how is it that someone can be both well educated and Dominican, or Euro-Dominican, or Buddhist-Dominican.
Using broad-brushes when trying to paint such an important thing as national character or identity inevitably leads to exclusion and rejection. I don't believe that I want or deserve to be excluded from identifying with Dominicanhood, just because others - even if they are the plurality - happen to think that I don't qualify.
cheers,
- Tordok
You deliver much reason with your words. I as a Dominican-American have never acted nor been viewed by other people as being Dominican. I wasn't brought up in the typical Dominican neighborhoods, nonetheless, the Dominican culture and language have always been strong in my household. My siblings and I were brought up to be good citizens of society who attend school, get a good education, and later have a family brought up with those good mannerisms. As far as the physical appearance, my family consists of Spanish influence and Caribbean influence (or probably African influence). We have never looked like Dominicans for this reason, but haven't regarded what society has to say. My parents came to this country for a better life for them and for the offspring that would follow. We don't attempt to act a certain way or deny any racial roots, we just try to be good people to everyone and to work for our money to live a decent life. In other words, we just want to be in this country to live the life that would be difficult to live in the old country. If society wants to think that we are trying to be better than the average Dominican or Latin-American in general, then that's their problem. After all, they don't support us.
As far the typical Dominican and his/her behavior, many quisqueyanos today may change their way of life via a religious movement called the Charismatic Renovation (which is usually in Spanish). This movement consists of religious groups and retreats, where people seek the Lord Jesus and acknowledge their sinful nature to him and ask for pardon. This movement is very strong in the old country D.R. My family members have been living satisfying lives in the Lord for over 10 years, and my parents have their own prayer group. Most of all, this thing has changed my life, since I had a difficult situation before these religious gatherings were encountered.
This may be a little off topic here, but it's something I wanted to mention as a means of Dominicans in general saving their souls and living a life in Christ.
To finish, we should be proud of who we are, regardless of what society thinks. It's not a perfect world and we can never make it one.
Peace and sunshine!
Last edited:
Tordok said:Stodgord,
Thank you for your feedback. I think that I understand your reasoning.
I also know that I may be promoting division, when in fact the complete opposite is my aim.
My issue was with the concept that some around the boards have, that in order to be considered "a real" or "true" Dominican any given individual must fit a rigid set of physical attributes and/or cultural affinities that, in my mind, just serve to perpetuate stereotypical mindsets about our nationality and in fact pretty much any nationality around the world. I find that there is an effort by some to reduce our national identity to a just few, sort of prepackaged clich?s, and this in my view is not always consistent with my experience as a Dominican. We need to value the culture, but within each culture there must be room for the possibility of diversity among individuals.
Just because someone was brought up in different circumstances within the same general culture does not automatically exlude that person from being authentically identified with that culture. Every society has "mass" or popular culture, but also other subcultures. Like I told someone in a PM yesterday: its a shame that even some of the well-educated among the posters (foreigners and Dominicans alike) purposefully fail to acknowledge or go to great lenghts to reject the notion that people like me do exist. They either think that we are lying as in a shameful cover- up of an unacknowledged Africanness, or else, that we are somehow showing off and feeling superior to them. Framed that way, it doesn't matter how reasonably, honestly, and respectfully I state those facts I will always end up with either the distrust of the public opinion on the board or its outright hostility. That, of course, is a 'can't win situation' over which I have no control.
Just because I chose to assert how I may be different with regards to possibly most Dominicans, that in no way takes away how in many ways I
am like most Dominicans. The issue is that there is a reverse form of classism, in which even well-intentioned individuals from the upper middle-classes are rejected by others who can't see how is it that someone can be both well educated and Dominican, or Euro-Dominican, or Buddhist-Dominican.
Using broad-brushes when trying to paint such an important thing as national character or identity inevitably leads to exclusion and rejection. I don't believe that I want or deserve to be excluded from identifying with Dominicanhood, just because others - even if they are the plurality - happen to think that I don't qualify.
cheers,
- Tordok
You speak for many of us Tordok.
NY1, I admit my posting has been sloppy in this thread. Strictly speaking, the term "Real Dominican" has no substantive meaning. The adjective "Real" does not lend itself to a conclusive discussion. It is a subjective (not an objective) modifier to the condition of being "Dominican".
You are Dominican if you were born in the Dominican Republic. It doesnt matter if you are:
1) white or black
2) rich or poor
3) have a pointy or rounded nose
4) etc, ad naseum
You are Dominican if you were born in the Dominican Republic. It doesnt matter if you are:
1) white or black
2) rich or poor
3) have a pointy or rounded nose
4) etc, ad naseum
Tordok, I agree with you almost point by point. Your posts are very well written. But I am sure you will not deny that you are not representative of the average or "median" Dominican.
Bottom line: Tordok, Rubio, Tvag, NY1, etc....you all appear to be top notch Dominicans. If the rest of the masses (white or black) had your capacity, we would not be a third world country.
Cheers from Boston!
Bottom line: Tordok, Rubio, Tvag, NY1, etc....you all appear to be top notch Dominicans. If the rest of the masses (white or black) had your capacity, we would not be a third world country.
Cheers from Boston!
RubioVargas/Mondongo,
I think that we are all pretty much on the same page. And yes Mondo, I must acknowledge that I would not be considered average Dominican. But that was my point, that beyond the average, we come in many shades and flavors.
I gotta tell you guys, that IMO 99% of the apparent disagreements on these boards are the result of the medium itself since writing is not easy. For example, I know that I write sentences that are too long or use words that are a bit weird, but it is all in good faith to hopefully bring better understanding. I'm sure that if we were just chatting in real life, there would be little disagreement about these topics.
bests,
- Tordok
I think that we are all pretty much on the same page. And yes Mondo, I must acknowledge that I would not be considered average Dominican. But that was my point, that beyond the average, we come in many shades and flavors.
I gotta tell you guys, that IMO 99% of the apparent disagreements on these boards are the result of the medium itself since writing is not easy. For example, I know that I write sentences that are too long or use words that are a bit weird, but it is all in good faith to hopefully bring better understanding. I'm sure that if we were just chatting in real life, there would be little disagreement about these topics.
bests,
- Tordok
Hello, very good discussion. I am not Dominican but have a few comments and questions.
First off, I would like to know why one would be proud of European heritage that shaped the Dominican history through the years? The Europeans were barbaric in their fight to steal the riches of the region, including the land. I think it is incredibly ignorant to construct monuments to Columbus. They butchered the people in more ways than one and the wealthy continue to do so. You should be proud of the Africans who rose up against this tyranny. You should be proud to be of African descent. You should be proud of that black blood coarsing through your veins. You should be proud of the Indian heritage also for they were peaceful and good people who were on the Island before anyone else.
My opinion is that a real dominican is born and raised in the DR...and supports his people...not only the wealthy people but all the people. A real dominicans feels the pain of a family who cannot afford to pay for healthcare for a dying mother. A real dominican feels the empty belly of his neighbors child. Most of you appear to be American...born and raised in USA. As much as you want to preserve your DR heritage, you are not Dominicans. You are Americans who parents were perhaps from the DR. And what is wrong with that? Nothing.
But what you are more than anything is simply a Human Being. Part of the Human Race. Where the color of your skin is not important. What matters is that we are respectful of one another. We value one another regardless of color of skin or country. Respect means that we don't abuse one another. We don't live our lives from a position of fear that forces us to cheat and corrupt one another. We live from a strength of believing in one another. And this value system does not have to be rooted in religion or gods. We don't have to create or accept idols out of a need to feel that since we cannot be in control...we have someone or something above us who is in control and watching out for our interest. We can depend on one another. We can believe in one another. The truth is simply this. We only have one another and our future will be determined based on how well we learn to live and work together. There is no entity that will do it for us. It is us and only us...that makes it all the more important that we appreciate one another, respect one another.
First off, I would like to know why one would be proud of European heritage that shaped the Dominican history through the years? The Europeans were barbaric in their fight to steal the riches of the region, including the land. I think it is incredibly ignorant to construct monuments to Columbus. They butchered the people in more ways than one and the wealthy continue to do so. You should be proud of the Africans who rose up against this tyranny. You should be proud to be of African descent. You should be proud of that black blood coarsing through your veins. You should be proud of the Indian heritage also for they were peaceful and good people who were on the Island before anyone else.
My opinion is that a real dominican is born and raised in the DR...and supports his people...not only the wealthy people but all the people. A real dominicans feels the pain of a family who cannot afford to pay for healthcare for a dying mother. A real dominican feels the empty belly of his neighbors child. Most of you appear to be American...born and raised in USA. As much as you want to preserve your DR heritage, you are not Dominicans. You are Americans who parents were perhaps from the DR. And what is wrong with that? Nothing.
But what you are more than anything is simply a Human Being. Part of the Human Race. Where the color of your skin is not important. What matters is that we are respectful of one another. We value one another regardless of color of skin or country. Respect means that we don't abuse one another. We don't live our lives from a position of fear that forces us to cheat and corrupt one another. We live from a strength of believing in one another. And this value system does not have to be rooted in religion or gods. We don't have to create or accept idols out of a need to feel that since we cannot be in control...we have someone or something above us who is in control and watching out for our interest. We can depend on one another. We can believe in one another. The truth is simply this. We only have one another and our future will be determined based on how well we learn to live and work together. There is no entity that will do it for us. It is us and only us...that makes it all the more important that we appreciate one another, respect one another.