"Real" Dominicans

[RubioVargas]

Hello, very good discussion. I am not Dominican but have a few comments and questions.

First off, I would like to know why one would be proud of European heritage that shaped the Dominican history through the years? The Europeans were barbaric in their fight to steal the riches of the region, including the land. I think it is incredibly ignorant to construct monuments to Columbus. They butchered the people in more ways than one and the wealthy continue to do so. You should be proud of the Africans who rose up against this tyranny. You should be proud to be of African descent. You should be proud of that black blood coarsing through your veins. You should be proud of the Indian heritage also for they were peaceful and good people who were on the Island before anyone else.

My opinion is that a real dominican is born and raised in the DR...and supports his people...not only the wealthy people but all the people. A real dominicans feels the pain of a family who cannot afford to pay for healthcare for a dying mother. A real dominican feels the empty belly of his neighbors child. Most of you appear to be American...born and raised in USA. As much as you want to preserve your DR heritage, you are not Dominicans. You are Americans who parents were perhaps from the DR. And what is wrong with that? Nothing.

But what you are more than anything is simply a Human Being. Part of the Human Race. Where the color of your skin is not important. What matters is that we are respectful of one another. We value one another regardless of color of skin or country. Respect means that we don't abuse one another. We don't live our lives from a position of fear that forces us to cheat and corrupt one another. We live from a strength of believing in one another. And this value system does not have to be rooted in religion or gods. We don't have to create or accept idols out of a need to feel that since we cannot be in control...we have someone or something above us who is in control and watching out for our interest. We can depend on one another. We can believe in one another. The truth is simply this. We only have one another and our future will be determined based on how well we learn to live and work together. There is no entity that will do it for us. It is us and only us...that makes it all the more important that we appreciate one another, respect one another.

Snuffy,

Using your logic, why would one be proud of any type of heritage? Yes, the Europeans who colonized the Americas were responsible for many terrible acts, but at the same time so have Africans and even the powerful pre-Columbian empires of the Americas. You often hear Mexicans, Peruvians, and other South Americans speak of how proud they are of their Indian heritage. Yet, a simple read-through of Aztec, Maya, or Inca history gives many examples of how these empires enslaved, oppressed, and mercilessly killed other groups.

Your criteria for determining which heritage we should be proud of reflects American society's obsession with political correctness. Basically, it's ok to be proud of your race/heritage as long as it's not white.

I'm proud of both my European and African heritage, unashamedly.

As to the second part of your comments, you're simply implying that to be a "real" Dominican, you have to be of a certain political/social ideology.

The "ideas" in the last part of your comment, as nice as they may sound, can be taken out of any textbook for any random ethnic diversity course that students are forced to take here in the U.S. Not to sound mean-spirited, but we've all heard it a thousand times. What does it have to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[Tvagyok!]

Snuffy, Tvagyok! agrees not with thee

 

[Tvagyok!]

originally posted by Snuffy:
We don't have to create or accept idols out of a need to feel that since we cannot be in control...we have someone or something above us who is in control and watching out for our interest. We can depend on one another. We can believe in one another. The truth is simply this. We only have one another and our future will be determined based on how well we learn to live and work together. There is no entity that will do it for us. It is us and only us...that makes it all the more important that we appreciate one another, respect one another.
Hi,
Snuffy, I must disagree with you when you say that we shouldn't believe in any god or have any religion. What you express is your opinion, but not the reality. My family and I have been living a good and humble life for many years thanks to the help of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. He came into our lives to help us to live our lives doing his will, which is going to his house every week and
following his commandments, and then loving our neighbors as ourselves and helping those in need. I can't begin to tell you how the Lord Jesus has changed my life from the way it used to be, he saved my life. The bottomline is, respecting one another is a normal part of life and that's what the Lord wants us to do. He wants us to live our lives with our everyday problems, do our daily responsibilities, and most of all, serve him by going to mass, reading the Bible, and preaching his Holy Word to the world. So we do have a great Father who loves us and watches over us, but he's not going to control the world for us or solve our problems. We must pray to him to help us live in this world, since each day it's getting worse and worse. However, with his strength via prayer, we will survive in this world, but we are the ones responsible for doing what is right and helping others to do the same.

Peace and sunshine!

 

[Snuffy]

Well, I don't think I said it like that...but what I am giving you is an optional way of thinking and viewing the world. I did not mean to disrespect your belief system. But the problem is that not everyone is Christian. There are many religions and belief systems. And although you may be a very good person the fact is that many people use religion as a means to prosper or to authorize their actions which may not be in the best interest of humanity. The problem with religion is similar to the problem with race. "I am a better color, a better religion...and therefore that gives me priority." "They are not of same religion or race and therefore I can treat them with less respect." For example, you probably have used the phrase..."Unless you repent and accept Jesus as your savior, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven" What you would be saying is that your way is the only way...and that anyone else is less than you are. This kind of logic creates division amongst people. It makes one man think that you are disrespecting him because he is perhaps a Muslum. It divides the world. So, if you must, believe in your religion but believe in your fellow man. Believe in that Muslum or Buddhist. Believe that he is equal to you and show him as much respect as you do your preacher.

originally posted by Snuffy:
We don't have to create or accept idols out of a need to feel that since we cannot be in control...we have someone or something above us who is in control and watching out for our interest. We can depend on one another. We can believe in one another. The truth is simply this. We only have one another and our future will be determined based on how well we learn to live and work together. There is no entity that will do it for us. It is us and only us...that makes it all the more important that we appreciate one another, respect one another.
Hi,
Snuffy, I must disagree with you when you say that we shouldn't believe in any god or have any religion. What you express is your opinion, but not the reality. My family and I have been living a good and humble life for many years thanks to the help of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. He came into our lives to help us to live our lives doing his will, which is going to his house every week and
following his commandments, and then loving our neighbors as ourselves and helping those in need. I can't begin to tell you how the Lord Jesus has changed my life from the way it used to be, he saved my life. The bottomline is, respecting one another is a normal part of life and that's what the Lord wants us to do. He wants us to live our lives with our everyday problems, do our daily responsibilities, and most of all, serve him by going to mass, reading the Bible, and preaching his Holy Word to the world. So we do have a great Father who loves us and watches over us, but he's not going to control the world for us or solve our problems. We must pray to him to help us live in this world, since each day it's getting worse and worse. However, with his strength via prayer, we will survive in this world, but we are the ones responsible for doing what is right and helping others to do the same.

Peace and sunshine!

 

[Snuffy]

We are talking about Dominican heritage and so we have to consider only Dominican history...right? Now, tell me about the Indians of the Dominican Republic. Tell me about the Africans of the Dominican Republic. Then tell me about the Europeans of the Dominican Republic.

I can think of many white heritage examples that I would appreciate. It does not have to be of the barbaric, enslaving, and conquering type.

I doubt that you have heard this line of thinking ever before in your life. Certainly you have never seen it in any textbook. Read it again.

What does that mean..."I am proud of my heritage" Exactly what does that mean to you? It is a nice thing to say...but can you define it?

Snuffy,

Using your logic, why would one be proud of any type of heritage? Yes, the Europeans who colonized the Americas were responsible for many terrible acts, but at the same time so have Africans and even the powerful pre-Columbian empires of the Americas. You often hear Mexicans, Peruvians, and other South Americans speak of how proud they are of their Indian heritage. Yet, a simple read-through of Aztec, Maya, or Inca history gives many examples of how these empires enslaved, oppressed, and mercilessly killed other groups.

Your criteria for determining which heritage we should be proud of reflects American society's obsession with political correctness. Basically, it's ok to be proud of your race/heritage as long as it's not white.

I'm proud of both my European and African heritage, unashamedly.

As to the second part of your comments, you're simply implying that to be a "real" Dominican, you have to be of a certain political/social ideology.

The "ideas" in the last part of your comment, as nice as they may sound, can be taken out of any textbook for any random ethnic diversity course that students are forced to take here in the U.S. Not to sound mean-spirited, but we've all heard it a thousand times. What does it have to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[festival]

well, Im glad of being me but I wouldnt care if i was either black amererican,dominican,american white.
Well what im trying to say is dont be proud of where you come from, be proud of who you are.
You can also say, i dont believe in nationalism, I think that is mostly the root of wars.

 

[Tordok]

Snuffy,
I appreciate your interest in this thread, however I find that you've taken some huge leaps in your interpretations of its content. I can't find any statements by me or the others on the thread were anyone made claims of superiority or inferiority based on any given heritage or creed.

If anything, all I can find is that we all tried to clarify that although this may be a problem among SOME Dominicans, those were not the feelings of ANY of the participants of THIS discussion. Our aggregate national identity and pride is not based on racial background. Regardless of our superficial differences as individuals, none of us has conveyed being ashamed of our mixed collective heritage. In fact, the point is that we can all be proud of the positive contributions of people of all backgrounds and work toegther towards eliminating the barriers that still can hold some of us socially separate and unequal.

Beyond that, I respectfully decline to engage in any further discussion on this thread. And most certainly not about religion or political ideologies.

- Tordok

 

[Tvagyok!]

Meeting fellow Dominicans and making friends

Aloha to all,
I find the posts here to be of interest to me as they are from intellectual people, most of them from my old country. For this reason, I find this to be a good place to meet people like myself and form good friendships.
Tordok, I like the way you express yourself. Were you born in the U.S.? If so, what state are you from? I'm fromWoodside, N.Y., and I have been here all my life. I never really met Dominicans like you and others here in real life, so I discovered quisqueyanos like me on this board.
Ok, once again Tvagyok! says:
Peace and sunshine!

 

[Tvagyok!]

Tvagyok! would like to comment

Snuffy,
If I made it seem that people who don't follow a life in the Lord are less than me, then I pardon myself. What I meant to say was that people should respect one another, not seek any ranks such as race, religion, or economic situation to make themselves superior to one another. Of course, there are people who abuse of religion, such as preachers who may travel in limousines well-dressed, and go to preach somewhere giving people the impression that they are the big ones, because they preach God's Word, and worse than that, they may collect money from people at the places they go and keep it for themselves. Obviously, these people will have to render an account to the Lord when they come before him in judgment. The true preachers that are baptized by the Holy Spirit are very humble, and they view themselves as a mere instrument of the Lord, only preaching what he puts in their hearts, not what they feel like telling people. I say this because of attending religious groups of the Charismatic Renovation, and one there can feel the words of the preacher, because he/she lets the Lord speak via him/her.
The main point of all this is, no one is better than the fellow neighbor, in the eyes of the Lord we are all little, but at the same time very important to the great Creator.

Peace, sunshine, and blessings to ye!

 

[RubioVargas]

We are talking about Dominican heritage and so we have to consider only Dominican history...right? Now, tell me about the Indians of the Dominican Republic. Tell me about the Africans of the Dominican Republic. Then tell me about the Europeans of the Dominican Republic.

I can think of many white heritage examples that I would appreciate. It does not have to be of the barbaric, enslaving, and conquering type.

I doubt that you have heard this line of thinking ever before in your life. Certainly you have never seen it in any textbook. Read it again.

What does that mean..."I am proud of my heritage" Exactly what does that mean to you? It is a nice thing to say...but can you define it?

As you can see Snuffy, no one else in this discussion has attempted to villify any race as you've done with Europeans. You've gone off on an irrelevant tangent. I'm not trying to attack you personally, just letting you know why I'm not going to continue this debate.

 

[Snuffy]

Festival, yes I agree.

well, Im glad of being me but I wouldnt care if i was either black amererican,dominican,american white.
Well what im trying to say is dont be proud of where you come from, be proud of who you are.
You can also say, i dont believe in nationalism, I think that is mostly the root of wars.

 

[Snuffy]

Okay...I'm out of your thread. Enjoy your conversation.

 

[deelt]

Tordok,

I enjoyed reading this thread. I also knew you and Mondongo would coalesce, eventually.

Of course, I agree with your post below. What I find critical is how correct you are that we are a truly diverse entity. I just wanted to take the opportunity to highlight that your comment has serious, if not alarming, national implications for Dominican-Americans, specifically, and Dominican abroad, in general.

The fact is that Dominican-Americans are becoming MORE diverse, but because of our experiences, our migration patterns, our partners, etc.. It's the question of: Is a Dominican-American born and raised in Alaska more or less Dominican because s/he has never eaten a plantain, was raised among poor rural whites, or preferred to be intergrated into the African-American community? What of the other harder issues of having this next generation of D-As not learning Spanish or DR history, or having never even travelled to DR? How "Dominican" are they?

The reality is that as we continue to grow as an ethnic group we will continue to migrate and spread out of NY (for a better quality of life) and become even more diversified in our experience, while still retaining much of our "Dominicanness." In may cases it's a trivial experience that's funny but binding. It's like the difference of making your "Morir Sonando" with "Tang" or freshly squeezed OJ. The point is you made the drink and drank it.

My point is that we do need to find some common ground and find a common medium to unite these people's experience so that we ensure that future Dominican-American generations do not lose that draw that gives us the impetus to continue to even come to a site like DR1.

Best
Deelt

My issue was with the concept that some around the boards have, that in order to be considered "a real" or "true" Dominican any given individual must fit a rigid set of physical attributes and/or cultural affinities that, in my mind, just serve to perpetuate stereotypical mindsets about our nationality and in fact pretty much any nationality around the world. I find that there is an effort by some to reduce our national identity to a just few, sort of prepackaged clich?s, and this in my view is not always consistent with my experience as a Dominican. We need to value the culture, but within each culture there must be room for the possibility of diversity among individuals.

Just because someone was brought up in different circumstances within the same general culture does not automatically exlude that person from being authentically identified with that culture. Every society has "mass" or popular culture, but also other subcultures. Like I told someone in a PM yesterday: its a shame that even some of the well-educated among the posters (foreigners and Dominicans alike) purposefully fail to acknowledge or go to great lenghts to reject the notion that people like me do exist. They either think that we are lying as in a shameful cover- up of an unacknowledged Africanness, or else, that we are somehow showing off and feeling superior to them. Framed that way, it doesn't matter how reasonably, honestly, and respectfully I state those facts I will always end up with either the distrust of the public opinion on the board or its outright hostility. That, of course, is a 'can't win situation' over which I have no control.

Just because I chose to assert how I may be different with regards to possibly most Dominicans, that in no way takes away how in many ways I
am like most Dominicans. The issue is that there is a reverse form of classism, in which even well-intentioned individuals from the upper middle-classes are rejected by others who can't see how is it that someone can be both well educated and Dominican, or Euro-Dominican, or Buddhist-Dominican.
Using broad-brushes when trying to paint such an important thing as national character or identity inevitably leads to exclusion and rejection. I don't believe that I want or deserve to be excluded from identifying with Dominicanhood, just because others - even if they are the plurality - happen to think that I don't qualify.

cheers,
- Tordok

 

[Tordok]

OK Deelt, I'll post

:glasses: :bandit: :cross-eye Hi Deelt,
Here I am posting after saying "no more". But I value your input. DR1'ers are lucky to have posters of your caliber. I'm not a theorist, but I do seek technical validity in these discussions. Its like the urge of any Grammar teacher in having students look at the exceptions to the rules with examples of unorthodox conjugations. For the word to be correct it must bend to its individual uniqueness while respecting a preconvened collective norm or order. I'm a contrarian by nature and often overdo it. I just will try not to repeat the mistake of using any of my personal info in order to illustrate a point. The arguments need to make sense in the blind, or not at all.

On the topic: we can't help being socially myopic as we are shaped by our individual experiences. It is only when we all share both our dreams and nightmares, even if in spirit only, that's when we are being Dominicans. like everyone else, I am many things at the same time. Being Dominican is not THE characteristic that defines me as a person, but it is nonetheless integral to who I am. I salute you and the others that are trying to decipher the random incongruities spread all over the cultural composition of the DR and its diaspora.

In evolutionary-historical terms, everyone everywhere, has ancestors that migrated from one place to another. We are all in flux. Individually and collectively. Seems clear that we are all in this together. People of the DR, the US, and the whole World are, slowly but surely merging into what we really are: one people.

bests,
- Tordok

 

[rellosk]

... People of the DR, the US, and the whole World are, slowly but surely merging into what we really are: one people.

Well said, but you better not let the anti-globalization police hear that.

 

[Noman]

man, we shouldnt be judging anyone, regardless of who it is!! I mean, I have one clear definition of who is a real Dominican, and thats basically whoever tries to uplift his race. I dont care if you were born here, in el cibao, en la capital or wherever!! At first it was hard for me to even be proud of my country because my country never did **** for my people. How come my whole family is illiterate, living on a day to day basis, with no land to harvest? How come my good hearted dad had to come over here and become a criminal in order to buy a few cows, horses, and land for us to eat? Why is my dads conscience fucked up now? I hate when the educated stomp on the uneducated, because the educated persons job is to understand those that dont understand!! This passion that I carry, that can lead me anywhere at any moment is Dominican, and I came to the USA at the age of 9! Can no one tell me nothing about being Dominican, that land is mines!! I worked that land at the early age of 6! I ran naked across the many fields, I showered in the rain and became one with the mud, so noone can ever tell me anything! Yes my vocab is still that of a campesino but i dont give a ****, you tell me to fix my language, that language that I learned from my granpa, my uncles and aunts who are so old yet have the minds of young children, and I'll tell you to go to hell...today i wish i would had never set foot in this fake country...i wish i would have lived the life that my grandpa lived, because with our blood and our history of struggle, we can only become one thing in this place we call "the land of opportunity"...and im not even gonna say what it is!!

 

[angela-in-nj]

I was picking up a cake last night in Washington Heights (163rd between Broadway and Ft Washington) and I saw a lot of the people who like you said probably thought of themselves as "real Dominicans." A lot of kids/young adults talking loudly switching back and forth between ghetto English/Dominican Spanish.

If a non Dominican like me were to take this as their only impression of what Dominicans are like or what Dominican culture is like then they would form negative opinions. Unfortunately, when I talk to older people who used to live in Washington Heights/Inwood in pre-Dominican days they are disgusted by what has become of their old neighborhoods. The problem is that their impression of Dominican people is shaped by the ones who are most visible and audible who are of course the loudmouth kids hogging the sidewalks.

As I walked last night, I had to remind myself that the obnoxious street toughs were not the only Dominicans around. There were other kids coming home from colleges, young adults returning from professional jobs, people working long hours in the salons, etc. This group of people outnumbered the "bad apples" but due to their low key profiles could be overlooked.

My point being that is one should keep a balanced view of any group (whether it be Dominicans or whoever) not just rendering opinions based on those who are loudest/most visible. The real "real" Dominicans, as you saw, are definitely out there.

Wow, this happens to me at work, when other latinos find out i'm dominican they start talking about how dominicans talk, and how they talk to their kids in the street and even smack them right there in the middle of the street. Unfortunatly this is an awful reality of some of our people, they don't care who's around to scold the kids and even hit them right there. Many times i find myself telling people that not all dominicans are like that and that no one in my extensive family acts like. It is so sad that now that i think about it the many times i 've been in other ghetto areas of nyc i haven't notice other ethnic groups being so loud and obnoxious,.. well maybe at least one ....

 

[angela-in-nj]

I really have to appologize for my post. It was done tongue-in-cheek....just as a reminder to all of of us that the average Dominican is dark skinned.

You fellow Dominicans strike me as intelligent well-adjusted compatriots...and its always good to see that.

We are what we are (dark skinned). I am not ashamed.

Mondongo and you shouldn't be ashamed i have relatives in my family that have african in them and they themselves are blond with blue eyes so there is no denying "la mezcla" that we have on that beautiful island which is spreading everywhere. Many of my relatives have married darker skin dominicans, there is something about that color that's attracts the Cibaenas/nos.

love
angela

 

[contasm]

Tordok, I agree with you almost point by point. Your posts are very well written. But I am sure you will not deny that you are not representative of the average or "median" Dominican.

Bottom line: Tordok, Rubio, Tvag, NY1, etc....you all appear to be top notch Dominicans. If the rest of the masses (white or black) had your capacity, we would not be a third world country.

Cheers from Boston!

Increible !!!!!? Talking about mutual admiration group of quasi white Dominicans?..or ?Dominican-Americans??..

Los quiero ver en el malecon?..

 

[contasm]

Here we go again

Boy?I have not heard or read so much ?basura? and self-proclaiming righteousness in any other dr forum but this?.Why do we Dominicans always bring the skin color issue to the battle front when indeed that is not the weapon of choice we should be using when combating anti-Dominican sentiments. Sure ? the call us ?Dominican niggas??but yes? we are black?. Are we embarrassed to be taken for American Blacks because of all the negative things it implies or just because we feel our ?blackness? is lighter that theirs and thus we should no be grouped under the same racial umbrella?. Black is black is black??

Miguel hides true Dominican blackness by creating a pseudo racial distribution that is totally misguided. I assume the ?criollo? group he refers to is made of a mix of African black, Dominican indigenous and European blood; but please do not assume an equal 33.33 % allocated to each group?we all know that black blood is the predominant composition of this criollo ?hamburger helper?, perhaps 80 %


73% are "criollos"
16% are whites
11% are blacks(not counting people from Haiti)