Reparations To Developing Nations?

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Texas Bill

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Nal0whs said:
That's a question that I have asked myself many times and based on what I have found out through research and asking a few history professors at the University of Connecticut, this is what I found.

It turns out that the Spanish Colonies differed in their clasification of slaves from the Americans. Apparently, Spanish Colonies recognize slaves as human beings whose freedom was automatically granted once their master died or if their master wished upon it. Also, the off-springs (this was only in effect in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Santo Domingo) of the slaves would automatically be free.

In the USA, the constitution never recognized slaves as humans, instead slaves were property in the full extent. Meaning, a slave had no rights what so ever, also off-springs of the slaves were not free. Slaves could have also bought their freedom or get their freedom at their masters will, but seldom did that happened.

That was the biggest difference which caused difference in how slaves were seen in the different areas controlled by the Americans and/or Spaniards.

In my opinion, the fact that for about 100 years after slavery was abolished in the United States, the US still practiced a form of Aparteid where blacks and whites were segregated in all areas. For many years after most (if not all countries) of the world where slavery had been practiced, after they gave the freedom to their slaves, the slaves were free to do what they wanted and people were not segregated, at least by law they weren't. Stories and news about the segregation in the US and the many lynchings, abuses, and human rights violations towards afro-Americans, in my opinion, probably helped in imbedding in the world's minds that the Americans were in more ways than one much more responsible for slavery and negative connotations towards blacks or something. I know that's not true, but that could have been a reason why the US is always singled out in this slavery issue.

I think that its important to note that Santo Domingo was the first place in the new world where the enslavement of Africans first began. When the Spaniards moved their empire Capital from Santo Domingo (after they ceded the western third of Hispaniola to France) to Havana, then Havana became the main slave trading port in the hemisphere. Most of the slaves in Santo Domingo were either sold to the French in St. Domingue (Haiti) or given their freedom, with few actually being enslaved.

I think its also important to note that eventhough the US was an important trading partner of Havana in the slave trade, St. Domingue (ie. Haiti) was their biggest customers due to the EXTREMELY harsh treatment the French imposed on the Africans. In fact, thats where Africans had the lowest life expectancy after being enslaved, in St. Domingue the average slave only lived for 6 months after arriving at the port of Cap-Francais (today Cap-Haitien) or Port-au-Prince.

I like to point that out because the USA WAS NOT the worst player in the slave trade, there were others (French) that were much more brutal to the slaves. In addition, the Dutch were the ones involved in the actual transportation of the slaves from the different ports along Western Africa to Havana.

It's also important to note that Brazil (under the Portuguese) had way more African slaves than the US had! But, I guess that the fact that the US segregated afterwards (something that didn't existed in other countries in the New World after slavery ended) may have contributed for the world to look at the US as the evil doer when it comes to slavery, eventhough there were worst players in that game. I'm not saying that what the US did was nice or good, it was still wrong, it's just that in my opinion (and I'm not an American by the way) in my opinion America is being blamed far more than its fair share in this slavery deal.

NalOws.
As always, you offer historical background on an issue posted here.
I'll be the first to recognize and admit that slavery in the US (principly in that area know as 'Dixie") has had a very unsavory history. Particulary after the Civil War. Each "Southern' state had it's own set of "Jim Crow" laws which survived well into the 20th century and it wasn't until the 1960's that opposition reached such proportions that people started waking up to the illegally enforced plight of the Blacks. The spill-over of that is still felt throughout society today. Also, I think ou will find that the "South" was the guilty party in the practice of aparteid all the way into the 1960's, and Not the entire country as your post suggests.
Fortunately, many new laws and Supreme Court rulings are being actively enforced and corrective measures are continuously being promulgated. There is still a lot of effort to be expended toward the elimination of basic prejudices amoung the population, both North and South.
Perhaps one of the main reasons for focusing on the US is that there exists a body of publicity within the US that does just that. People tend to read between the lines of the newspapers and arrive at conclusions that reallly aren't there. Additionally, our own politicians have contributed to the scenario.
It is ironic that a country's stated policies on, and constitutional guarantees of, human rights are rendered ineffective and/or moot in the face of bitter invective by a few whose actions and words deny the progress made toward the accomplishment of their goals. However, I think it is necessary to remind the population of any slowdown in the effort to correct a deplorable situation.
Unfortunately, slavery is still practiced in a few countries, allbeit in a very subdued manner. I would think that a great deal of effort should be focused in that arena, in all fairness.

Texas Bill
 

thick_neck

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I see a trend here...

Okay, so you selectively read "into" things. I did not quote you, but you took some things straight up, and then "read" into others.

I'll respectfuly stay away; I'll keep the reasons to myself.
 

Texas Bill

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thick_neck said:
Okay, so you selectively read "into" things. I did not quote you, but you took some things straight up, and then "read" into others.

I'll respectfuly stay away; I'll keep the reasons to myself.

Thank you and I'll do the same.

Texas Bill
 
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Nal0whs said:
It turns out that the Spanish Colonies differed in their clasification of slaves from the Americans.
There were dramatic differences in the way various cultures - English/American, French, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese speaking - handled slavery. And these differences show up even today as the legacy of slavery when you compare race relations in, say, Haiti, the DR, Brazil, Curacao and the US.

But this is a dangerous topic - a road that we should perhaps not go down.
 

Tony C

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thick_neck said:
However, the most liberal members, the groovy thinkers here,!.
groovy is such an appropiate word for you guys. Old and our of date!
thick_neck said:
have read your admission of accepting reparations in the forms of tax deduction. Nice going for someone who has, for three years now, written about self-reliance and capitalism!.
That proves that I am a true capitalist. Any chance to pay less taxes is fine by me. BTW I never said I accepted a deduction. I said my Family. I was a child at the time.
Anyway. The reason that the US Gov allowed the deductions was because JFK sold out the Cuban people to appease the Soviets when he caved during the "Missile Crisis"
thick_neck said:
Now, on to the jealousy part:
But no, we are not jealous of the "Miami Cubans success story." Especially one that has to be celebrated by your commander-in-thief, George Dubya Bush. You can keep your "success" and your congressional representation, we'll keep the D.R. Yeah, the same D.R. you keep visiting. Ain't it cool?.
The Same DR I abandoned living in back in the 80's due to you guys propensity to elected idiots. You guys have a choice every for years. The people in Cuba Don't!
As for our Commander in Chief....I'll be sure to wave at the camera during his re-inauguration in January so you can see me!
Yea right...Your not Jealous!
thick_neck said:
And just in case you bring up your own personal success story, as you and the majority of the members usually do, let me warn you that it won't work, either. You ain't golo, and you'll never be. Besides, who would want to be you? .
Never said i wanted to be a GOLO, Never want to be a GOLO. I enjoy his writings here on DR but the man drives a Trans-Am for Gods Sake!
I will glady compare accomplishments against anyone on this board...Including GOLO.
thick_neck said:
Here, let me brag just a bit: long hair; low body fat; eight-pack stomach; .

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not Gay!
thick_neck said:
quick as a cat and fast as Secretariat; vertical leap of 36 inches; long jump over 20 feet; baseball prodigy: right-hand hitter with a left-handed mentality and viceversa; basketball god; tennis monster; track star;.
So? Your good at childs games. Let me know when yoy take up a sport!
thick_neck said:
Astaire-like:from mambo to tango and all points in between;.
Again...I'm not Gay!
So? Your good at childs games
thick_neck said:
expert at third-rate romance and low-rent rendevouz;.
Now your quoting bad Country Songs?
thick_neck said:
big hands.
Give it up. I AM NOT GAY!
thick_neck said:
no 'stache.
Don't worry. Maybe in a few years you will be old enough to shave.
thick_neck said:
and lastly: the love of baby jesus in my eyes..
Huh?
thick_neck said:
But reparations in other forms are taking place as we speak, Tony and his followers just don't know about it; mainstream media hasn't told them yet.
They do report it. They just call it Foriegn Aid or Welfare.
 

thick_neck

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Tony, you seem to see 'gay' everywhere you look.

Advice to Tony: Do Not Look in the Mirror.

Stay on topic. And stop being so jealous of Dominicans. After all, we are the real mandingos of the Caribbean - we posses the gift of gab and treat the ladies right.

And stop being envious of golo, too. Celebrate his success and get on with your life.
 
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Tony C said:
That proves that I am a true capitalist. Any chance to pay less taxes is fine by me. BTW I never said I accepted a deduction. I said my Family. I was a child at the time.
Anyway. The reason that the US Gov allowed the deductions was because JFK sold out the Cuban people to appease the Soviets when he caved during the "Missile Crisis"
And the defense attorney said: "Your honor, my client wasn't at the scene of the murder. And if he was, he didn't have a gun. And if he was there and he did have a gun, someone else did the shooting."

Face it Tony, in taking these reparations through tax breaks, you and the rest of the Miami Cubans smell just as bad as the cadillac-driving welfare queens to which Reagan used to refer.

Very funny post, overall, Tony.
 
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thick_neck

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Law 89...reparations?

Tony's take on what he calls "Missile Crisis" sounds like a scene from Costner's "13 Days." Fiction, Tony, pure fiction! And McNamara said so on Book TV.

Now, the Cuban Adjustment Act sounds, looks, smells like reparations. And that's because that's what it is. But don't tell that to the Batistianos who control Miami media and politics. And they have the balls to vote Rethuglican - ingratos y malagradecidos.
 

Tony C

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thick_neck said:
Tony, you seem to see 'gay' everywhere you look.

Advice to Tony: Do Not Look in the Mirror.

Stay on topic. And stop being so jealous of Dominicans. After all, we are the real mandingos of the Caribbean - we posses the gift of gab and treat the ladies right.

And stop being envious of golo, too. Celebrate his success and get on with your life.
You were the one describing your body like it was suppose to excite us. Go back to banging fat tourist Chicks. I'll Stick to the Dominicanitas at the CC who wouldn't give your narssasistic, chopo, butt the time of day.
BTW Stop saying that I am envious of GOLO. He is a Admirable Gentleman. 2 qualities that you lack.

And another thing. Citing Robert McNamara is not to be done in Public. Too bad he wasn't in the Limo in Dallas with the man who Left the Cuban Freedom Fighters for dead on the beaches, Allowed the Soviets to mantain a military prescence in Cuba and signed an agreement with the Soviets to not allow freedom in Cuba. All that in exchange for the US pulling its missles out of Turkey. Tell me again how that coward was a friend of the Cuban people?
 

thick_neck

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Apr 6, 2004
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Silly me...

Hey, Tone, describing my body was supposed to be cheesy and corny, but you missed it. As a matter of fact, you miss a lot of things here. The ladies know what 'big hands' mean, and the world knows why YOU sport a Rock Hudson-style 'stache. Don't ask, don't tell. If it interests you, I could give you links to studies of homophobes and their reactions in different settings.

But I have to give you credit: you're good at trivial stuff.

Yes, I AM A CHOPO. And...?

Law 89-732 IS REPARATIONS to the cubanitos.

Now, who is more knowledgeable about the four-decades-old "Cuban Missile Crisis"?

Is it forty-something Tone? Or Robert McNamara, who was there when you were in diapers? This should be interesting.
 

Criss Colon

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"Might Makes Right!" Always Has,Always Will"!!!!

Why not stop all this "Mental Masturbation"and talk about something relevant to This Day and Age!!!
If I have "Guns",and you have "Spears",I take what I want from you!!!
Those with the "Best Technology" win!!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Criss Colon said:
Why not stop all this "Mental Masturbation"and talk about something relevant to This Day and Age!!!
If I have "Guns",and you have "Spears",I take what I want from you!!!
Those with the "Best Technology" win!!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
Hey, Criss, I thought only the Bush administration was allowed to write Al Qaida recruiting posters. But you do an awfully good job of it too.
 

CES

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- Skull & Bones -

Nal0whs said:
It turns out that the Spanish Colonies differed in their clasification of slaves from the Americans. Apparently, Spanish Colonies recognize slaves as human beings whose freedom was automatically granted once their master died or if their master wished upon it. Also, the off-springs (this was only in effect in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Santo Domingo) of the slaves would automatically be free.

In the USA, the constitution never recognized slaves as humans, instead slaves were property in the full extent. Meaning, a slave had no rights what so ever, also off-springs of the slaves were not free. Slaves could have also bought their freedom or get their freedom at their masters will, but seldom did that happened. . .

Hi All,

I just asked Mrs. CES (una Domimicana) if she recalls her school lessons re: the colonial times & slaves in Hispanola, mentioned the differences in treatment and she said "You Americans are pigs and thats why you have Bu$h for a president.

As for Tonie placing all the blame on JFK for the "Bay of Pigs" disaster actually GHWBU$h has something of a connection.

SEE ===>

I Stole the Head of Presto Bush!

by Ron Rosenbaum

. . . It did so by abolishing itself and then reincorporating itself with the uninformative, anonymous-sounding name "RTA Incorporated." And it chose a very peculiar moment in history to do so. The new papers of reincorporation that erased the century-old Russell Trust Association were filed at 10:15 a.m. on April 14, 1961. Two hours later, at noon on that day, the orders went out to begin the Bay of Pigs operations?the covert C.I.A.-financed invasion of Castro?s Cuba, a bloody fiasco that still haunts us four decades later.

Coincidence? Probably. But then it?s also true that one of the C.I.A.?s masterminds for the Bay of Pigs was a man named Richard Drain, Skull and Bones ?43. And the White House planner of the Bay of Pigs operation was McGeorge Bundy, Skull and Bones ?40. And the State Department liaison for the Bay of Pigs operation was his brother William P. Bundy, Skull and Bones ?39. And the man who filed the reincorporation papers that erased the Russell Trust Association from existence on the day of the Bay of Pigs was Howard Weaver, Skull and Bones ?45W (George Bush?s class), who retired from the C.I.A. in 1959. All of which might lead one to suspect that the Skull and Bones corporate shell had been used as a clandestine conduit of funds for the Bay of Pigs, and then erased from existence to cover up the connection as the invasion got underway.

Still, once again, it?s not any covert connection between Skull and Bones and the Bay of Pigs that?s so shocking and revealing, it?s the overt connection: Whether or not they used the Russell Trust Association as a pipeline, the fact that all these Skull and Bones geniuses devised such a patently idiotic plan in the first place is the scandal. Brave men died because of their elitist secret-society mentality. And then they went on to give us Vietnam. It makes you fear for the future of our country if George W. turns to these types for advice.


? 2002 THE NEW YORK OBSERVER

- and -

Book Excerpt:

The Legend of Skull and Bones

<font size=1>CES</font>
:alien:

ps . . .
Recently we vacationed for two weeks in Florida, somehow just missed seeing little Tonie
 

thick_neck

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Ces Rules!!!

I missed that article, but I did catch 60 Minutes last Sunday. Who would've thunk it!?

So, in order to be admitted in Skulls and Bones, you have to disclose your entire sexual history?

Tone, are there any more GWB secrets out there? Hmm...

Josechul?simo
 

CyaBye3015

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Nal0whs said:
That's a question that I have asked myself many times and based on what I have found out through research and asking a few history professors at the University of Connecticut, this is what I found.

It turns out that the Spanish Colonies differed in their clasification of slaves from the Americans. Apparently, Spanish Colonies recognize slaves as human beings whose freedom was automatically granted once their master died or if their master wished upon it. Also, the off-springs (this was only in effect in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Santo Domingo) of the slaves would automatically be free.

Nal0whs, I assume you're speaking about the years after the Spanish raped, pillaged, plundered and SLAUGHTERED the aboriginal lands and many of the peoples of the Caribbean, Central and South America.
 

CyaBye3015

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Nal0whs said:
But anyways, my point is this. If the Mexican-American war was started because of Texas, why did the Americans took California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, Idaho, and Montana from Mexico?

It would have made more sense to take TEXAS only, but they didn't, they took the entire northern chunk of Mexico!

And where do you think Mexico got California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, Idaho, and Montana from? As a matter of fact, did the Spanish have any rights to Mexico?

My dear departed dad had a saying for your attitude "the pot is calling the kettle black". In other words, they are both black!!!
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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CyaBye3015 said:
And where do you think Mexico got California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, Idaho, and Montana from? As a matter of fact, did the Spanish have any rights to Mexico?

My dear departed dad had a saying for your attitude "the pot is calling the kettle black". In other words, they are both black!!!

That's so true. I almost forgot that the vast majority of Mexico always has been the Indian or Mestizo (people of mixed indian and caucasian) ancestry. Silly me, thinking that the Natives were better off under Mexican rule because most Mexicans are Indians or have Indian blood. Oops, silly me!
 

NALs

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CyaBye3015 said:
Nal0whs, I assume you're speaking about the years after the Spanish raped, pillaged, plundered and SLAUGHTERED the aboriginal lands and many of the peoples of the Caribbean, Central and South America.

My comments that you quoted stand for the entire colonization period, including that time period where as you said, the natives were heavily harrassed or in the Spanish eyes, the Indians provoked alot of unnecessery battles like in La Aleta, where the massacre of all the Indians in that area (near La Romana) began because a Spanish dog ran away and bit an Indian and the Natives retaliated by killing one Spaniard and the Spaniards took that as an attack at their safety and so they went on rampage and as Criss Colon says, the fittest toughest with the best technology won the battle.

But that's besides the point. Spaniards DID recognized slaves as Humans. In the British colonies (and the independent countries that formed from them) slaves were never recognized as Human beings, just subjects of the gifted people (European) for them to do as they wish for the Europeans. These are just facts.

People of those days thought and live according to their way of thinking in those times, in other words they were people of their times, not saints.
 
Nal0whs said:
But that's besides the point. Spaniards DID recognized slaves as Humans. In the British colonies (and the independent countries that formed from them) slaves were never recognized as Human beings, just subjects of the gifted people (European) for them to do as they wish for the Europeans. These are just facts.
QUOTE]
Just to provide some factual history of what our "Great leaders" had invisioned Before it was ammended under Amendment XIV ? Rights of Citizenship shall not be abridged a hundred years later, this is from the American Constitution Article 1 Section 2.

Did Spain have such document as well in recognizing slaves?

"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three"
 
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