- Thread starter AZB
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Serious rioting going on in santiago at night.
Escott said:
This is interesting. Peaceful resistance - How about it? What would be the reaction of police and armed forces if they are faced with an unarmed, peaceful, non-resistant mass of people, demonstrating peacefully?
Chris when you said that I couldn't help thinking of Tiananmen Square, where peaceful protest ended up being more of a threat to the authorities. And we all know what happened next there.
Just to remind those of you who say Dominicans should change things by voting: who is there to vote for who doesn't maintain the status quo of patronage and corruption? It is always the case of voting for the party who appears to represent the lesser evil. They all say they will:
(a) end power cuts
(b) end corruption
(c) give you a half-bottle of rum/200 pesos if you turn out for their rally
(d) give you a zinc roof/a road building contract/a job if you campaign for them
And we all know what happens next there too!
Chiri
Just to remind those of you who say Dominicans should change things by voting: who is there to vote for who doesn't maintain the status quo of patronage and corruption? It is always the case of voting for the party who appears to represent the lesser evil. They all say they will:
(a) end power cuts
(b) end corruption
(c) give you a half-bottle of rum/200 pesos if you turn out for their rally
(d) give you a zinc roof/a road building contract/a job if you campaign for them
And we all know what happens next there too!
Chiri
That Could Never Work Here.
But, of course you're right. Frankly, I just don't understand how throwing rocks at my car or burning tires in my street sends a message to the government, though. Ah well.
Most Dominicans will stand 30 minutes waiting in the hot sun for a guaga to take them to the Colmado across the street rather spend 30 seconds to walk there. Heaven forbid they should ever have to go to even a Wal Mart in the U.S. where the parking lot is bigger than Sosua.Escott said:
But, of course you're right. Frankly, I just don't understand how throwing rocks at my car or burning tires in my street sends a message to the government, though. Ah well.
AZB said:
What's down there besides Riverside, and some transvestite hookers on the corners? C'mon, AZB I thought you were into classy ladies?
Why are the people rioting in santiago at night ?
Why do I have to take Autopista Duarte instead of the road thru Licey when coming home from Santiago ?
Why has everything doubled in price and my wife's cousin still makes $RD 1,200($30 US) monthly or other cousins none of whom make more than 2,500 ($60 US - as of oct/2003) pesos monthly.
I think the most recent protests are a direct result of the current power electric situation, but is probably more a built up frustration from the years and years of NEVER GETTING AHEAD !!!!
How can anyone possibly live on $60 a month and ever get ahead ?
Sorry, don't want to keep dribbling here, but SOMETHING has to be done. I have lived on both sides of the fence as far as money and status go, and yes it is a more comfortable life when you have money, but rich or poor ALL people enjoy simple things like electricity and water.
Juan_Lopez
Why do I have to take Autopista Duarte instead of the road thru Licey when coming home from Santiago ?
Why has everything doubled in price and my wife's cousin still makes $RD 1,200($30 US) monthly or other cousins none of whom make more than 2,500 ($60 US - as of oct/2003) pesos monthly.
I think the most recent protests are a direct result of the current power electric situation, but is probably more a built up frustration from the years and years of NEVER GETTING AHEAD !!!!
How can anyone possibly live on $60 a month and ever get ahead ?
Sorry, don't want to keep dribbling here, but SOMETHING has to be done. I have lived on both sides of the fence as far as money and status go, and yes it is a more comfortable life when you have money, but rich or poor ALL people enjoy simple things like electricity and water.
Juan_Lopez
In a way I am glad people are rioting, it seems to have a small and temporary effect on the situation, the problem is that this situation is getting all too predictable, and things always happen in the following order:
1) long blackouts
2) a few riots and burning tires
3) lights come back on for a few days
4) electric rates go way up
5) long blackouts return
It's just like what happens with the gasoline prices:
1) price goes up 5 pesos/gallon
2) major riots
3) price goes down 0.5 pesos/gallon
4) people pat themselves on the back and congradulate each other for "making a difference"
5) price goes up 3 more pesos/gallon
1) long blackouts
2) a few riots and burning tires
3) lights come back on for a few days
4) electric rates go way up
5) long blackouts return
It's just like what happens with the gasoline prices:
1) price goes up 5 pesos/gallon
2) major riots
3) price goes down 0.5 pesos/gallon
4) people pat themselves on the back and congradulate each other for "making a difference"
5) price goes up 3 more pesos/gallon
Juan Lopez,
What does your wife's cousin DO for 1300 pesos a month? that is like 1/3rd of the minimum wage!!!
I have an employee who makes 1200 peoso a month but guess what --- her work week is less than 2 hours long.
Anybody remotely interested in "getting ahead" is going to have to work for more than 2 hours a week. And if they're not smart enough to figure out that they would make more than 2500 pesos a month self employed in almost ANY capacity than they simply will never get ahead, regardless of what any goevernemt or person does for them.
The very term GETTING AHEAD implies that someone else is getting LEFT BEHIND. Even if someone were to magically drop these people at the head of the race, they would quickly fall behind again because they just don't have the drive to get anywhere.
Sure you're not going to get filthy rich in this country without being a murderous thief, but you can be comfortable by just making consistent good decisions, being carefull and WORKING REALLY DAMN HARD EVERY DAY.
This means you have to sacrifice some of that quality time on the front porch watching cars go by and stop burning tires for free electricity and start burning calories to pay for what you get.
What does your wife's cousin DO for 1300 pesos a month? that is like 1/3rd of the minimum wage!!!
I have an employee who makes 1200 peoso a month but guess what --- her work week is less than 2 hours long.
Anybody remotely interested in "getting ahead" is going to have to work for more than 2 hours a week. And if they're not smart enough to figure out that they would make more than 2500 pesos a month self employed in almost ANY capacity than they simply will never get ahead, regardless of what any goevernemt or person does for them.
The very term GETTING AHEAD implies that someone else is getting LEFT BEHIND. Even if someone were to magically drop these people at the head of the race, they would quickly fall behind again because they just don't have the drive to get anywhere.
Sure you're not going to get filthy rich in this country without being a murderous thief, but you can be comfortable by just making consistent good decisions, being carefull and WORKING REALLY DAMN HARD EVERY DAY.
This means you have to sacrifice some of that quality time on the front porch watching cars go by and stop burning tires for free electricity and start burning calories to pay for what you get.
Chris said:
Theyn would probly laugh and make money by selling these fools food and drinks.
Another fun fact:
There has never been a successful "Peaceful" Revolution!
Everybody likes to bring up names like Ghandi and MLK but the fact is neither of these 2 would have been successful without the Violence or threat of Violence their movement brought along.
When the DR (and many other 3rd world countries) start lynching public officials (including local cops) for corruption you could make some progress. Shunning of the families involved can also work. This is a country wide problem - poor and rich. You get the government you deserve. You want an efficient, honest government, corruption has to be mostly eliminated and considered not acceptable behavior. Barring that, nothing much is going to change in DR (or anywhere else).
Mike
Mike
The thing is that most Dominicans would prefer to either move away till they can raise enough money so that the country's problems don't effect them so directly, or else try to work themselves into a position to profit from the widespread corruption.
I don't blame them really, I think given the means available to the average Doinican, these do seem like the two most available solutions to the problem.
My personal values don't allow me to think that way, but it's not my country anyway, so in the end it's their decision how they want to live.
I don't blame them really, I think given the means available to the average Doinican, these do seem like the two most available solutions to the problem.
My personal values don't allow me to think that way, but it's not my country anyway, so in the end it's their decision how they want to live.
MrMike, Do you appear to have this thorn in your side with the Dominican work ethic or lack there of? This is a very big problem in the country for both workers and employers and I partly agree with you although I am interested on how they/we got to this place of sitting on the front porch watching the cars go by and the need to riot attitude.
Show me 1 lazy Dominican and I will show you one that works 10 hours a day cleaning chicken shit for $RD 2,500
Let's use the USA as an example. Most people on public assistance in the USA have no intentions of EVER WORKING AGAIN!! The Dominican Republic has no public assistance. I don't know if the work ethic is different in the campo where I live but most people I know would rather WORK than sit around on the front porch.
Also as to not give anyone the wrong idea. I am an American living here who has a 15 month old baby that is being raised in the Dominican Republic. We COULD live anywhere in the world but choose this area because of the family values. I don't know to many people in Miami or any other big metropolis that are going to bring me food when I am sick.
Sorry, but again I digress.
Almost forgot, my wifes cousin works for a lawyer only answering the telephone in front of the office. 8-6 monday-friday.
Her cousin would love to work less than 2 hours for $RD 1,200 granting of course it wasn't sexual in nature
Now I am really done. I hope everything works out for the better with these riots because it really is a pain in the ass if you live in this area.
Juan_Lopez
Show me 1 lazy Dominican and I will show you one that works 10 hours a day cleaning chicken shit for $RD 2,500
Let's use the USA as an example. Most people on public assistance in the USA have no intentions of EVER WORKING AGAIN!! The Dominican Republic has no public assistance. I don't know if the work ethic is different in the campo where I live but most people I know would rather WORK than sit around on the front porch.
Also as to not give anyone the wrong idea. I am an American living here who has a 15 month old baby that is being raised in the Dominican Republic. We COULD live anywhere in the world but choose this area because of the family values. I don't know to many people in Miami or any other big metropolis that are going to bring me food when I am sick.
Sorry, but again I digress.
Almost forgot, my wifes cousin works for a lawyer only answering the telephone in front of the office. 8-6 monday-friday.
Her cousin would love to work less than 2 hours for $RD 1,200 granting of course it wasn't sexual in nature
Now I am really done. I hope everything works out for the better with these riots because it really is a pain in the ass if you live in this area.
Juan_Lopez
Juan_Lopez said:
Laziness is not purely physical. Part of me would love to have no greater responsibility in life than shoveling chicken shit. I have worked many different jobs and I have (literally) shovelled what I consider to be my share of chicken shit. But I was 12 years old at the time and have been working my way up to bigger (and better paying) things since then.
I slept better when I shovelled chicken shit because I didn't have to worry about anyone stealing my chicken shit. If they stole my shovel, my boss would get me another one, and with what you make shoveling chicken shit, you can't buy much that anyone would want to steal.
Juan_Lopez said:
I don't have an opinion about people being lazy or not, that is for everyone to decide for themselves. I do have an opinion about people being productive or not, particularly when they demand the "right" to consume more than they produce.
Shovelling chicken shit of answering phones for less than the legal minimum wage is not being productive, and being willing to lie down and take abuse like that contributes greatly to the problems in this country. Both of the people you mentioned should be filing law-suits with the Secretaria de Trabajo to get the back payment that is owed them. The courts side with workers in over 80% of labor disputes, so there's no reason they should be working for so little.
Juan_Lopez said:
Her cousin would love to work less than 2 hours for $RD 1,200 granting of course it wasn't sexual in nature
The lady that works less than 2 hours a week for me is a cleaning lady, there is nothing sexual about her job.
When the DR (and many other 3rd world countries) start lynching public officials (including local cops) for corruption you could make some progress. Shunning of the families involved can also work. This is a country wide problem - poor and rich. You get the government you deserve. You want an efficient, honest government, corruption has to be mostly eliminated and considered not acceptable behavior. Barring that, nothing much is going to change in DR (or anywhere else).
Mike
Mike
Not to start a flame war here, but the poor barrios don't pay for the electricity they do get.
The government here doesn't pay for the electricity they use.
Which means they will continue to charge more to the people that do pay their bills (us). At the same time our payments are not enough to cover the built up debt. So they have to charge us more and give us less.
About the lynching of public officials, anyone ever wonder why civilians can't own rifles?
The government here doesn't pay for the electricity they use.
Which means they will continue to charge more to the people that do pay their bills (us). At the same time our payments are not enough to cover the built up debt. So they have to charge us more and give us less.
About the lynching of public officials, anyone ever wonder why civilians can't own rifles?
Everyone
What is missing in the DR is the prime ingredient of "Opportunity" for advancement, economically!
This country has, essentially, an agrarian economy with a few eclaves of "goods" production in the form of "Free Zones".
Historically, the DR has had this since it's begining. Much like the South and West of early U.S. history. Whether or not the education system will ever fulfill it's obligation of "Educating" the population is a question yet to be answered. Much like (again) the early U.S. rural systems of education, the schools attempt to teach the 3 R's with a minimum of success simply because the students are taking the course of least resistance in "learning".
We, as the "haves" tend to view the "poor" as lazy, incompetent nere-do-wells out of habit because we were raised in an environment of plenty as pertains to opportunity and chances for advancement economically.
The riots we are observing are but a manifestation of the frustrations being experienced by the population and will continue until such time as those frustrations are eliminated.
The solutions lie with both the government, the business sector, and the population as a whole working together to formulate and impliment those solutions. And they are many.
None of us, singly, had an answer to the endemic problems of this growing nation, but we can make a little difference through discussion forums with the friends who surround us.
The public debt is mountainous at present. It needs to be explained to our Dominican friends that until that debt is satisfied, the DR will suffer economically and socially.
I think we've identified the major, basic problems on these forums. Now, I think we need to try and impliment some of the solutions necessary to solve the problems.
In fostering that statement, I realize that we, as non-citizens, can't do very much directly, but we can do a lot indirectly. Put on your thinking caps and get to work.
Texas Bill
What is missing in the DR is the prime ingredient of "Opportunity" for advancement, economically!
This country has, essentially, an agrarian economy with a few eclaves of "goods" production in the form of "Free Zones".
Historically, the DR has had this since it's begining. Much like the South and West of early U.S. history. Whether or not the education system will ever fulfill it's obligation of "Educating" the population is a question yet to be answered. Much like (again) the early U.S. rural systems of education, the schools attempt to teach the 3 R's with a minimum of success simply because the students are taking the course of least resistance in "learning".
We, as the "haves" tend to view the "poor" as lazy, incompetent nere-do-wells out of habit because we were raised in an environment of plenty as pertains to opportunity and chances for advancement economically.
The riots we are observing are but a manifestation of the frustrations being experienced by the population and will continue until such time as those frustrations are eliminated.
The solutions lie with both the government, the business sector, and the population as a whole working together to formulate and impliment those solutions. And they are many.
None of us, singly, had an answer to the endemic problems of this growing nation, but we can make a little difference through discussion forums with the friends who surround us.
The public debt is mountainous at present. It needs to be explained to our Dominican friends that until that debt is satisfied, the DR will suffer economically and socially.
I think we've identified the major, basic problems on these forums. Now, I think we need to try and impliment some of the solutions necessary to solve the problems.
In fostering that statement, I realize that we, as non-citizens, can't do very much directly, but we can do a lot indirectly. Put on your thinking caps and get to work.
Texas Bill