Shutting Down "Puntos de Droga"

MrMike

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Prolly not much any less that when it happens in the states..

OK. Bothersome.

Depends on what they are looking for: drugs, unregistered guns, stolen goods, stolen cars/motos, drunk drivers, open alcohol containers, etc. or the political enemies of the PLD. If they are tossing political enemies in gulags for "subversive activities and literature" at the roadblocks, THEN it gets scary.

FWIW: night roadblocks/checkpoints here in FL (called "Wolfpacks") are not at all uncommon, nor has the ACLU filed complaints. Every time it happens, there are numerous DUI arrests, probation/parole violations, the occasional recovery of a stolen car, firearm violations, possession of drugs arrests, etc. Please explain how this differs from what they are doing in the DR. Granted, they happen on holidays more often than not, but they still happen.

Driving in the states and the DR is a privilege, not a Constitutional Right. That is why drivers have licenses. That license give "implied consent" to the roadblocks and inspections.

Maybe a DR lawyer can weigh in.


OK I can see you don't live here.

First of all put one of your "wolfpacks" on every intersection.
Second, Your "wolfpack" is made up of poorly educated, underpaid corrupt thugs.
Third, the "wolfpack" stops pedestrians as well.
Fourth, the ONLY thing the people being searched are doing wrong is being out on the street after dark.

American citizens are SUPPOSED to be constitutionally protected against unlawful search and seizure, and have a right to due process, but Dominicans pretty much just have the right to bend over.
 

Lambada

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I think there is a big difference between police heavy-handedness and totalitarianism. It is necessary to distinguish between the Government's intentions and the methods with which these are implemented. I see what is happening here as somewhat different from what was happening in certain east European countries 20 or 30 years ago. I have visited countries where inhabitants were scared to talk to the tourist for fear of how that would be interpeted by State authorities i.e. China a few years back. That doesn't happen in DR. Totalitarianism is as the word implies - a system of Government which is unlimited constitutionally or by other societal groups i.e. regional powers, church, unions etc. There is a bit of a difference in the DR now as compared to the Trujillo era, is there not?

Forgot to add, I do live here.
 

cobraboy

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Jul 24, 2004
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OK I can see you don't live here.
True, but I spend 60-90 days a year there in non-tourist areas. That is a lot for a non-resident, wouldn't you agree?

I also am in daily communication with friends and family members there, all natives or permanent residents. I'm certainly no occasional tourist who comes to party and chase wimminzes.

In a relatively short period of time, I've seen the DR go from a virtually unknown tropical paradise to a cesspool of crime and violence.

And I must not be the only one. Looks like the elected folks in charge see the same thing.

Something needed to be done. Crime affects all people, and inconveniences most. The solution usually does, too.
 
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Robert

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Sad thing is everyone untouched by this is going to be sitting back going "oh those bad, bad drug dealers" and DR1 moderators and staff are going to downplay it as much as possible so they can keep painting a sunny picture of an increasingly dictatorial country.

Whenever you want to step up and take over our law suits, let me know.

You have no idea of the feedback we get from certain "people" about our news.
Do you think we are liked by certain sectors of the government?

Show me a more unbiased news source in this country?
 

tflea

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Good Point

good point Roboert....and I'll opine that the press is all bought here.
I'll have to disagree that crime is on the rise however.
And if Leonel needs to play his Fujimori card to get some folks in
line then he will. He just completely realigned the military, DNI,
J2, DGNC and other agencies, but for what I can only guess.
Being an optimist I hope it is for the common good.
 

MrMike

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Whenever you want to step up and take over our law suits, let me know.

You have no idea of the feedback we get from certain "people" about our news.
Do you think we are liked by certain sectors of the government?

Show me a more unbiased news source in this country?

That's what I was afraid of. It does not appear that proper objective journalism can be done from within the country under current conditions, but doing it from anywhere else would be impossible - can't report the news if you have no idea what's going on.
 

cobraboy

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Jul 24, 2004
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I'm confused.

I thought the root problem was corruption within the police and military, followed by the judiciary.

So Lionel reconstructs the police, military and drug enforcement, and cracks down on a growing problem. That is a bad thing?

Seems to me that if he wanted corruption to continue it would have been much easier and less transparant to just "re-corrupt" the old crop of corrupt officials than to make a big deal about bringing in a new batch.

Perhaps my cynicism is less pronounced than others, but isn't there some hope that he's actually trying to clean things up for a change?
 

Chris

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I'm confused.

I thought the root problem was corruption within the police and military, followed by the judiciary.

So Lionel reconstructs the police, military and drug enforcement, and cracks down on a growing problem. That is a bad thing?

I have to go with MrMike here. The root problem is still corruption within the police and military, followed by the judiciary.

I think what is happening here, is that the fox is in charge of the henhouse.

The common belief is that most of those that staff the roadblocks and close down the bars at the appointed time, are still corrupt.

The common belief is that the current police and military are deeply involved in the growing drug problem.
 

Rocky

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I'm confused.

I thought the root problem was corruption within the police and military, followed by the judiciary.

So Lionel reconstructs the police, military and drug enforcement, and cracks down on a growing problem. That is a bad thing?

Seems to me that if he wanted corruption to continue it would have been much easier and less transparant to just "re-corrupt" the old crop of corrupt officials than to make a big deal about bringing in a new batch.

Perhaps my cynicism is less pronounced than others, but isn't there some hope that he's actually trying to clean things up for a change?
It's not an easy job to run a country.
Just getting us to recover from the Hippo financial fiasco is a big enough task for any 1 President's term.
I am not saying that I agree or disagree, and I don't know what all the reasons are and certainly can't predict the outcome, but we can be as tflea suggested, optimistic, and see what we can do to help.
Doing the "Chicken Little" won't help.
 

Robert

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I'm confused.

I thought the root problem was corruption within the police and military, followed by the judiciary.

So Lionel reconstructs the police, military and drug enforcement, and cracks down on a growing problem. That is a bad thing?

Seems to me that if he wanted corruption to continue it would have been much easier and less transparant to just "re-corrupt" the old crop of corrupt officials than to make a big deal about bringing in a new batch.

Perhaps my cynicism is less pronounced than others, but isn't there some hope that he's actually trying to clean things up for a change?


The problem is the approach.

Instead of fumigating the ants nest and going to the root cause, they are running around outside with a baseball bat hitting individual ants.

We have yet to hear of any community involvement or community based initiatives to prevent crime, this is the problem. Then again, maybe thats a little socially advanced for the DR. Look how they handle land evictions.

Personally I have no problem with the measures and it's glad to see they are actually trying to do something, regardless of how "warped" the effort appears to be to a foreigner.
 

cobraboy

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I have to go with MrMike here. The root problem is still corruption within the police and military, followed by the judiciary.

I think what is happening here, is that the fox is in charge of the henhouse.

The common belief is that most of those that staff the roadblocks and close down the bars at the appointed time, are still corrupt.

The common belief is that the current police and military are deeply involved in the growing drug problem.
I understand the cynicism totally.

But how can it be shown they aren't corrupt, except to act in a non-corrupt manner?

Wouldn't be busting the drug hangouts and possibly turning those busted into informing on the corrupt police and military be a place to start? Where do you begin, and how much time should it take?

You don't solve corruption my edict or Majic Wand. You do it by actually ~doing~ something. You have to prove yourself over time with actions, not words. I'm seeing words backed up by actions. Is this a bad thing?

I read about officials in various branches of government-customs, police, military, businessmen, even elected officials getting busted all the time. How does the current numbers of "outing" of corruption compare the Hippo and past administrations?

How do you clean up corrupt military and police.
 

Rick Snyder

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Sorry Rick, forgive me. With this one it is more important that the conversation continue, than where it started from. (I'm using moderator's priviledge here - again, my apologies)
 
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Rick Snyder

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Of all the problems that exist here in the DR the only variable that seems to have increased over the years is that of crime. Be it in the form of drug sales, distribution, use, arm sales, distribution, use, murders, robberies, corruption or any other type of crime they are all on the rise.

As Rocky said, “It's not an easy job to run a country”, and the powers that are use those methods that have been used over the years to combat that which they perceive to be a menace to them, society or as an action to accomplish a mission. Take land eviction as an example. There are times when the government decides to evict on what they consider legal reasons and they proceed to act. Their form of action my appear to be unorthodox but looking at history it is done now as it was done in the past with the same results.

This use by the president of the military and police is only natural as they are the enforcement portions of the government and he is the commander in chief of both entities. As such he must depend on the people that he has placed in charge and those below that level. For obvious reasons he can not go out there personally and administer police action. At times he sees that the desired results that he wishes are not being achieved and he therefore changes the leaders but due to the make up of the personnel at his disposal it usually ends up being a change from the bad to the bad or the bad to worse. This is something that I don’t place blame on LF due to the fact that he can only work with what is made available to him and what is suggested to him by his cabinet. I doubt very seriously that the methods being used are his idea but rather those of his advisers. Regardless of the fact that LF is well educated, speaks a few languages and is all around a nice guy he does not have the capacity to know firsthand what methods are needed to address all the woes of this country.

Due to the mindset, culture and disposition of some of the Dominican populace and from my observations through the years I have decided that the political arena here is virtually a crap-shoot. Some things change but most stay the way they have always been and the only thing you can hope for is that the lives of the average Dominican are improved or at least they don’t get worse then they were before.

Regardless as to what the OP has stated in other posts concerning the opinions of “most” Dominicans in this country my observations and conversations with the local populace and the conversations of other board members with the local populace as posted on this board along with the personal thoughts by other board members and the reports in the media all indicate that the present actions initiated by the president are lowering crime. The published fact that the populace feel better and safer at night is a testament to their wellbeing and shouldn’t be overlooked.

It is my opinion that LF has no intension of turning the DR into a totalitarianism state. As the wise Lambada said, “there is a big difference between police heavy-handedness and totalitarianism”, and heavy-handedness is what you are witnessing.

If the end result of this “heavy-handedness” is a eradication or the lowering of drugs and their use here and if crime is lowered then the populace are the beneficiaries of said action and an indication that the end justifies the means.

Rick

Rocky thank you for your post #9. I know you weren’t speaking for me but your assumptions were correct. When I did have the opportunity to reply my post was edited by the moderator so I wasn’t afforded the opportunity to set the record straight. Once again thank you.
 
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Chris

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OK I can see you don't live here.

First of all put one of your "wolfpacks" on every intersection.
Second, Your "wolfpack" is made up of poorly educated, underpaid corrupt thugs.
Third, the "wolfpack" stops pedestrians as well.
Fourth, the ONLY thing the people being searched are doing wrong is being out on the street after dark.

American citizens are SUPPOSED to be constitutionally protected against unlawful search and seizure, and have a right to due process, but Dominicans pretty much just have the right to bend over.

MrMike, came through Santiago after dark tonight and was not stopped once. We expected to be stopped somewhere.

Came in to our little town and was stopped outside the town. A courteous greeting, a quick check and we went on our way.

Rick Snyder said:
It is my opinion that LF has no intension of turning the DR into a totalitarianism state. As the wise Lambada said, “there is a big difference between police heavy-handedness and totalitarianism”, and heavy-handedness is what you are witnessing.

Totalitarianism, heavy-handedness, whatever. Even though it was not a big imposition this evening, it certainly did not feel comfortable to be pulled over at a roadblock while we were peacefully making our way back home from a visit with friends.
 

Lambada

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I'm sure it doesn't feel comfortable; it isn't something I've experienced as I'm rarely out late at night here; when I get waved down in the day in PP its either to say hello or sometimes to salute the Brit. flag number plate I have, so that's all a bit different! But honestly there is a qualitative difference between over the top police action and sinister action. Years ago in Moscow I was expected to remain with the 'tour party'; not my scene so I gave the intourist guide the slip. The.....er.......'debriefing' I got after the event felt a lot more totalitarian than what happens here; & there were a few moments when I wondered how long it would be before I was released. But like all good students I learned my lesson so by the time I got to Mongolia I was a lot better at giving the guide the slip.........;) How many of us here in the DR have been picked up off the street for no apparent reason and held in solitary with no ability to contact anyone for days on end? Now that would be closer to totalitarianism........
 

MrMike

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Backpedalling

OK I just wanted to back up a little and say that on closer inspection I think that keeping the partyers off the street late at night is a blessing.

Last night some of my (former) employees decided to do a little drag racing in front of the office after work and I kinda lost my compassion for them being hassled by cops on their way home, on the contrary I am now dissapointed the cops let them go afterwards.

The thing is I live in an apartment annexed to my call center and I enjoy the fact that its a quiet neighborhood, moreso since the new ordinances keep the jevitos driving around all night long trying to show everyone their huge, um, subwoofers.

Always have hated that kind of disturbance and it'ws been wonderfully absent since the new measures have been in effect.
 

Rick Snyder

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MrMike,

I can appreciate how you are enjoying the absence of the additional noise and there are a large number of Dominican citizens that are thinking like you and appreciating the tranquillity they now have.

The ones that I have always felt sorry for are those citizens that built there houses a number of years ago and formed communities whereas a person would decide to install a colmado. With growth and the influx of money the colmado would grow as would the cliental and the volume of the radio would increase as would the time of being open. For some reason the volume of the music is somehow equated with the number of patrons and the ability to draw them in without any regard for the neighbors that live in the close proximity of the establishment. With a set time for the music to be turned off those neighbors are afforded the possibility of more restful nights and a lapse into days gone by.

Rick