Thanks for the tip.
I just am not sure I want a no name chinese propane heater in my house.. Seems like there's a lot of ways for it to go wrong between carbon monoxide and gas leaks. The ones I saw didn't seem very high quality.
- Thread starter bob saunders
- Start date
Source of heat for hotwater
Thanks for the tip.
I just am not sure I want a no name chinese propane heater in my house.. Seems like there's a lot of ways for it to go wrong between carbon monoxide and gas leaks. The ones I saw didn't seem very high quality.
okay this is the simplest and easiest and most maintenance free way to go...a tankless propane hot water heater..I have installed a number of tankers hot water heaters..although they were natural gas heaters...they also come in propane..hot-water on-demand...with these particular units you do not need to store water and tank which eventually will cool down and takes awhile to heat back up..when you turn on the the hot water the unit automatically turns on and eats the water as you used.it.once you turn off the faucet the unit then turns itself off..as far as carbon dioxide is concerned you vent the gases outside not a big concern.
Oh?
Just the facts from my experience.
I gave names and web sites for 2 LPG tankless water heaters.
I live on the Ocean, less then 100 meters from my house. Rust is a concern but we deal with it with no noticed rust on tanks or unit(s) after 2 years... LPG tanks and heater units are protected from direct wind driven salt air. Just had to change over a 50 lb LPG tank after 5 months by moving a valve to the second tank. Supplies hot water to the 2 bath sinks, kitchen sink and shower... and wife likes long and hot showers. No elec. needed for the heaters except for new ones that use 2 D sized batteries.
Regards, Ringo
Just the facts from my experience.
I gave names and web sites for 2 LPG tankless water heaters.
I live on the Ocean, less then 100 meters from my house. Rust is a concern but we deal with it with no noticed rust on tanks or unit(s) after 2 years... LPG tanks and heater units are protected from direct wind driven salt air. Just had to change over a 50 lb LPG tank after 5 months by moving a valve to the second tank. Supplies hot water to the 2 bath sinks, kitchen sink and shower... and wife likes long and hot showers. No elec. needed for the heaters except for new ones that use 2 D sized batteries.
Regards, Ringo
Skippy I'm with you mate!
Yes you're right beware of the trolls, there's plenty in these fora (is that the plural of forum?)
Everyone seems to be an engineer! What exactly is a maintenance engineer? It's another name for a technician. So let's get these qualifications into perspective.
In the field of engineering there are generally three trade levels. A mechanic, a technician and an engineer.
A mechanic maintains things by following procedures written in manuals and skill.
A technician repairs things by using manuals, diagnosis and skill.
An engineer builds things and writes the manuals.
Engineers are educated to degree level. They not only use formulae, they write them and derive from source.
So let's get back to what our esteemed and educated Skippy is trying to tell us with his considerable and well founded knowledge.
Dominican houses are plumbed with plastic piping and as a result it is almost impossible to get the water running through them at the same potential (another name for voltage) as earth.
In modern electrical systems a device called a Residual Circuit Current Detector RCCD is used. This device measures the amount of current going into the load and then measures the amount of current coming out of it, see Kirchoff's law for details. If at any time a current leakage occurs the RCCD would trip off in milliseconds. A current leakage is when either the supply current or returning current goes to ground. As there is no real grounding in Dominican houses this leaked current goes through the water, through YOU and then to ground. A lethal voltage is considered to be 50 volts AC or 120 volts DC. So its stands to reason that you potentially have TWICE the lethal voltage from our 110v electrical supply.
All for this current leakage to occur would be a faulty connection, a broken down insulation or a mechanical failure. Have you seen how Dominicans wire up houses here?
I'm not going to put it all down to Dominican workmanship either. These on-demand electric heaters have an electrical element that is constantly heating up then cooling down. This causes premature ageing and fatigue in metal. Inside these elements, the only thing insulating you from 110v AC is a 2mm sleeve of ceramic. As soon as this ceramic breaks down....you're dead! And who knows when that will happen, could be 40 years, could be more, could be less. But it's a when, not an if.
I haven't seen RCCDs for sale here in any of the ferreterias. I've spoken to a few Dominican electricians who have never heard of them. Even if they are available, it still needs a good, well bonded ground circuit for it to be effective.
So IMHO stay away from electric water heaters in this country.
By the way did I mention that I'm an engineer too! And the difference between a mechanical engineer and a civil engineer?
Mechanical engineers build weapons.
Civil engineers build targets!
Yes you're right beware of the trolls, there's plenty in these fora (is that the plural of forum?)
Everyone seems to be an engineer! What exactly is a maintenance engineer? It's another name for a technician. So let's get these qualifications into perspective.
In the field of engineering there are generally three trade levels. A mechanic, a technician and an engineer.
A mechanic maintains things by following procedures written in manuals and skill.
A technician repairs things by using manuals, diagnosis and skill.
An engineer builds things and writes the manuals.
Engineers are educated to degree level. They not only use formulae, they write them and derive from source.
So let's get back to what our esteemed and educated Skippy is trying to tell us with his considerable and well founded knowledge.
Dominican houses are plumbed with plastic piping and as a result it is almost impossible to get the water running through them at the same potential (another name for voltage) as earth.
In modern electrical systems a device called a Residual Circuit Current Detector RCCD is used. This device measures the amount of current going into the load and then measures the amount of current coming out of it, see Kirchoff's law for details. If at any time a current leakage occurs the RCCD would trip off in milliseconds. A current leakage is when either the supply current or returning current goes to ground. As there is no real grounding in Dominican houses this leaked current goes through the water, through YOU and then to ground. A lethal voltage is considered to be 50 volts AC or 120 volts DC. So its stands to reason that you potentially have TWICE the lethal voltage from our 110v electrical supply.
All for this current leakage to occur would be a faulty connection, a broken down insulation or a mechanical failure. Have you seen how Dominicans wire up houses here?
I'm not going to put it all down to Dominican workmanship either. These on-demand electric heaters have an electrical element that is constantly heating up then cooling down. This causes premature ageing and fatigue in metal. Inside these elements, the only thing insulating you from 110v AC is a 2mm sleeve of ceramic. As soon as this ceramic breaks down....you're dead! And who knows when that will happen, could be 40 years, could be more, could be less. But it's a when, not an if.
I haven't seen RCCDs for sale here in any of the ferreterias. I've spoken to a few Dominican electricians who have never heard of them. Even if they are available, it still needs a good, well bonded ground circuit for it to be effective.
So IMHO stay away from electric water heaters in this country.
By the way did I mention that I'm an engineer too! And the difference between a mechanical engineer and a civil engineer?
Mechanical engineers build weapons.
Civil engineers build targets!
beeza, you must be a civil engineer because you just made yourself a target. Just kidding, of course.
However, your analysis of how electricity seeks ground through water is faulty, since water isn't necessarily a ground unless it is IN the ground. In other words, when water is stored in a plastic tinaco and passes through PVC pipes and PVC drains, it is not actually grounded at any time. Therefore it never is in a position to complete an electrical circuit, thus cutting the chances of electric shock from faulty electrical showerhead heaters considerably.
And that from neither a builder of weapons nor targets.
However, your analysis of how electricity seeks ground through water is faulty, since water isn't necessarily a ground unless it is IN the ground. In other words, when water is stored in a plastic tinaco and passes through PVC pipes and PVC drains, it is not actually grounded at any time. Therefore it never is in a position to complete an electrical circuit, thus cutting the chances of electric shock from faulty electrical showerhead heaters considerably.
And that from neither a builder of weapons nor targets.
Catcherintheye, my analysis isn't faulty and you've helped explain why!
Just because something is in the ground it doesn't necessarily have the same potential as ground. So like you have now explained we now have an entire water system at a different potential to the rest of the house.
If you know about electrical theory you need a PD (potential difference) for current to flow, That's where the flow of electrons from a positively charged atom flow to a negatively charged one
Stand under a shower with a water system at a different charged potential to you and whatever you are standing and you will get a current flow. And some of that current flow will go through your heart!
Also don't forget you only need a PD of 50vac for it to kill you. With 110v you are starting with twice the lethal voltage, with 220v you have four and a half times!
Just because something is in the ground it doesn't necessarily have the same potential as ground. So like you have now explained we now have an entire water system at a different potential to the rest of the house.
If you know about electrical theory you need a PD (potential difference) for current to flow, That's where the flow of electrons from a positively charged atom flow to a negatively charged one
Stand under a shower with a water system at a different charged potential to you and whatever you are standing and you will get a current flow. And some of that current flow will go through your heart!
Also don't forget you only need a PD of 50vac for it to kill you. With 110v you are starting with twice the lethal voltage, with 220v you have four and a half times!
beeza,
While I certainly do not want, or intend, to become involved in an esoteric on-line debate, I do enjoy engaging in a worthwhile discussion on an interesting subject. You have provided such an opportunity, and I appreciate your sincereity and contribution.
As I'm sure you know, the existence of PD does not in itself provide the pathway for electricity. There is PD all over the place, as an example, at the point of the contact between insolators and distribution power. However, there is little chance of electricity passing through the insolator, even though the difference is great. In order for electrity to be dangerous it needs to travel through a circuit. In the case of human contact, the circuit is completed through the human body to ground. Without a pathway to ground there is no danger. In other words, if a person is completely insolated from ground, he or she can safely handle wires carrying more than 34,500 volts of power, which in fact happens quite often with electrical workers. Problems occur only when the worker comes in contact with ground.
In addition, as I am also sure you know, voltage has little to do with electricity's lethal potential. It has much more to do with the amperage of the current.
While I certainly do not want, or intend, to become involved in an esoteric on-line debate, I do enjoy engaging in a worthwhile discussion on an interesting subject. You have provided such an opportunity, and I appreciate your sincereity and contribution.
As I'm sure you know, the existence of PD does not in itself provide the pathway for electricity. There is PD all over the place, as an example, at the point of the contact between insolators and distribution power. However, there is little chance of electricity passing through the insolator, even though the difference is great. In order for electrity to be dangerous it needs to travel through a circuit. In the case of human contact, the circuit is completed through the human body to ground. Without a pathway to ground there is no danger. In other words, if a person is completely insolated from ground, he or she can safely handle wires carrying more than 34,500 volts of power, which in fact happens quite often with electrical workers. Problems occur only when the worker comes in contact with ground.
In addition, as I am also sure you know, voltage has little to do with electricity's lethal potential. It has much more to do with the amperage of the current.
catcherintherye
Yes let's keep this intellectual jousting going without it getting nasty, I too enjoy it!
I agree that the existence of a PD doesn't necessarily induce a current flow. I agree that for this to happen you need a conductor.
But answer me this. Where does this electrically charged water go after it's gone over your body and down the drain? Does it go into the ground? Is the ground at a different potential to the house? Does that complete the circuit?
Yes let's keep this intellectual jousting going without it getting nasty, I too enjoy it!
I agree that the existence of a PD doesn't necessarily induce a current flow. I agree that for this to happen you need a conductor.
But answer me this. Where does this electrically charged water go after it's gone over your body and down the drain? Does it go into the ground? Is the ground at a different potential to the house? Does that complete the circuit?
beeza,
I think that depends on the drainage system. If the drainage pipe is PVC and travels straight down (from an upper floor for example) to some type of holding tank, there would be little or no chance of conducting electricity to ground.
However, if the drainage is slower moving, and therefore forming a continuous drainage stream , and the pipe metalic or conductive, and is deposited into a leeching field, the possiblity of creating a circuit is more viable.
However, having all those conditions exist simultaneously, in addition to having a defective showerhead water heater with ample amps to do damage are remote at best.
While I will concede the possibility exists of electrical shock severe enough to kill when using an electrical showerhead water heater, it is no more likely than when using almost any household appliance in the bathroom or kitchen. In fact, I would suggest the chances are much less, given the actual recorded cases of such mishaps.
I think that depends on the drainage system. If the drainage pipe is PVC and travels straight down (from an upper floor for example) to some type of holding tank, there would be little or no chance of conducting electricity to ground.
However, if the drainage is slower moving, and therefore forming a continuous drainage stream , and the pipe metalic or conductive, and is deposited into a leeching field, the possiblity of creating a circuit is more viable.
However, having all those conditions exist simultaneously, in addition to having a defective showerhead water heater with ample amps to do damage are remote at best.
While I will concede the possibility exists of electrical shock severe enough to kill when using an electrical showerhead water heater, it is no more likely than when using almost any household appliance in the bathroom or kitchen. In fact, I would suggest the chances are much less, given the actual recorded cases of such mishaps.
catcherintherye
Thank you for concurring with me.
I am only trying to establish a risk assessment based on theory alone. The gist of it being that the threat of electrocution from these shower heaters exists.
Many factors have to come into play until a fatal accident occurs. Call it the swiss cheese effect, murphy's law, seven link chain event etc. But the fact is that there is a risk.
Usually the most effective deterrent against these accidents is common sense, but that is very difficult to quantify and measure. Common sense with a little knowledge can help reduce risks even more.
Arguing the fact that an accident will not happen is very foolish. Arguing that it is unlikely is only effective until all explanations of the "What if" have been answered.
Thank you for concurring with me.
I am only trying to establish a risk assessment based on theory alone. The gist of it being that the threat of electrocution from these shower heaters exists.
Many factors have to come into play until a fatal accident occurs. Call it the swiss cheese effect, murphy's law, seven link chain event etc. But the fact is that there is a risk.
Usually the most effective deterrent against these accidents is common sense, but that is very difficult to quantify and measure. Common sense with a little knowledge can help reduce risks even more.
Arguing the fact that an accident will not happen is very foolish. Arguing that it is unlikely is only effective until all explanations of the "What if" have been answered.
Coincidentally, pure or de-ionized water is actually a very poor conductor of electricity. The higher the TDS (Total Disolved Solution) of the water, the higher the conductivity. In other words, sea water for example with it's solution of salt and other minerals is highly conductive.
Tap water, be it from rain, wells, rivers or reserviors has quite a high TDS. Drinking water is not so high.
So to be really safe, have a shower in de-ionized water. It will probably make your shampoo go a lot further and you'll be squeaky clean!
Tap water, be it from rain, wells, rivers or reserviors has quite a high TDS. Drinking water is not so high.
So to be really safe, have a shower in de-ionized water. It will probably make your shampoo go a lot further and you'll be squeaky clean!