Tainos in the DR?

[Lovelylocs]

Correction

No, I'm an American. As far as I know, I don't have any Dominican ancestry although the people at customs in Santo Domingo will argue it. In fact, I felt more "at home" and welcomed in the US.

Sorry, what I meant to say there was "In fact, I felt more "at home" and welcomed in the DR than in the US."

What a big mistake! LOL Los dominicanos treated me more like family while in the US sometimes the Americans... well u know how it is.

I don't know how to edit a post on here if it's even possible.

 

[Julio Tulio]

Well Im dominican by blood and all I get is nasty looks and whispers about "ayuditas" from customs.

I dont even get a welcome home half the time.

The women are always sweet as can be but the men just ignore me or give me the "Look at this Dominican-York" smirk.

But thats every poor nation from what I hear.

As far as Taino blood left in Dominicans?I'd say maybe 10 percent of us are more Sambos than Mullatos.

Many dominicans seems to be black but with straight,black hair,full cheek bones and large teeth and asian style eyes.

This is more characteristsic of a Sambo and not a mullato who for the most part just looks like a light skin black person.But since this term and mentality wasnt prevelant in the Spanish Carribean we dont look for it.

I doubt there are any large quantities of mestizons(white and native) in D.R.

 

[Chip]

Well Im dominican by blood and all I get is nasty looks and whispers about "ayuditas" from customs.

I dont even get a welcome home half the time.

The women are always sweet as can be but the men just ignore me or give me the "Look at this Dominican-York" smirk.

But thats every poor nation from what I hear.

As far as Taino blood left in Dominicans?I'd say maybe 10 percent of us are more Sambos than Mullatos.

Many dominicans seems to be black but with straight,black hair,full cheek bones and large teeth and asian style eyes.

This is more characteristsic of a Sambo and not a mullato who for the most part just looks like a light skin black person.But since this term and mentality wasnt prevelant in the Spanish Carribean we dont look for it.

I doubt there are any large quantities of mestizons(white and native) in D.R.

Thanks for your contribution, however you need to reads the previous posts about the percent of indian blood in the general popuation - in a nutshell, yes, it has been proved by DNA tests that there are still many mestizos here in the DR - in other words, no need to guess when you have facts.

 

[Exxtol]

As promised albeit a bit late,here are some of the latest DNA results from the Dominican Republic. For those who do not know or are not aware, Dr Martinez Cruzado who, who sequenced mtDNA in Puerto Rico has also done a mtDNA study in the Dr. His study in the DR commenced in June, 2007. 614 samples were taken. Of these only 174 samples have been squenced.
Sadly for those who still assume there are no people of Taino descent on the island, there was a substantial amount of Native American DNA found in the DR. Here are the results thus far based on the 181 subjects sequenced of the 614:

African: 110- of these many were either Haitian or from immigrants from the smaller Antillian islands.

Indian: 42- of these one was Puerto Rican and the other Panamanian- all in all not bad for supposedly extinct people!

White: 18 ofEuroasiatic descent

Guanche (*canary islander) 4

Another 440 samples have yet to be sequenced. If taken at face value, 23 % of Dominicans have Indigenous ancestry. Of course this mtDNA test is does ot show how many have Native American descent from the y-chromosone (fathers line) or how many have Indigenmous Nuclear DNA. A lot of the test subjects are from very isolated communities within the Dominican Republic. Most of these have not been sequenced.
These tests have not been made public as of yet since most of the test subjects have not been sequenced.

Baracutay,

I am not familiar with mtDNA sequencing. Is the process able to quantify the amount of taino blood within the sample population, or does it simply measure the existence of taino dna, albeit how small or large?

Secondly, I question the statistical validity of the sample based upon the reference given above:

"A lot of the test subjects are from very isolated communities within the Dominican Republic. Most of these have not been sequenced."

At face value it appears the sample was not based on random selection. Moreover, it seems the study suffers from sampling bias, as the prerference to include participants from isolated communities was readily employed.

Will Dr. Cruzado be conducting an experiment that represents a truer represenation of the dominican population? Indeed, for his sake I hope so--if the "facts" of this sample were ever published their validity would undoubtedly be called into question.

Ps. I respect what you're trying to do and I'm certainly open to adjusting my views on the DR's racial makeup; however, until proven otherwise I stand firmly in my opinion.

--Exxtol

 

[Chip]

until proven otherwise I stand firmly in my opinion.

--Exxtol

What would be the "short form" of this opinion? And what might it be based on?

 

[Baracutay]

Re: Samples

Exxtol,

Thank you for your questions and observations. Unfortunately when I?m able to tune in to DR1 I am usually at work and send off these rapid fire emails and do not explain as deeply as I should. That said, with regards to the current study the samples have not yet been totally sequenced, they will soon. The results thus far are staggering to say the very least.

This mtDNA study does not specifically look for Taino mtDNA. It simply looks for mtDNA in general. The purpose of the study is multi-faceted. One is to answer the question as to whether, if at all, there truly is Native American descent on the island. Most historians claim that the Taino became extinct 30 years after contact. Some have made very peculiar anthropological statements such as ?the Indian blood that did mix with the Spanish and Africans became diluted so at the present time there is no one in the Dominican Republic with Native American Ancestry. This mtDNA test demonstrates that this is a fallacy. I might add that for me this has nothing to do with ?size?. It is a matter of facts. Is there Indian ancestry on the island? The answer is yes. How much? Perhaps these tests can give us a clue.

Second the test attempts to trace human migrations to the island. From this test and similar ones conducted in Puerto Rico it has become clear that my Taino ancestors had both Yucatan and Amazonian ancestors themselves. The first migrations to the islands were from the Yucatan approximately 7 thousand years ago. Then around 4 thousand years ago, various Arawakan speakers from the Amazon River basin began arriving. It was a mixture off all these peoples that gave rise to the Taino people.

As for the areas where the samples were taken and taking statistical data into consideration?. of course the samples were random. Many samples came from major cities such as Santo Domingo and Santiago. Most however were from every municipality on the island. Most of us who identify with Taino and the new cadre of modern historians claim that the Taino escaped into the mountains and were able to maintain cultural, genetic and linguistic integrity in various forms up to modern times. So of course this study needed to go into isolated communities as well. After all, they do count, yes?

For the sake of argument I would say that perhaps a deeper study needs to be done in the DR. But you must admit that a sampling of 614 people is pretty large (and the only one of its kind) and the results have either been disappointing or up-lifting, depending on your particular stance on Taino continuities.

In my experience I have found that once people have made up their minds on a particular subject they very rarely change their minds. Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction. You must understand that in our historical past, most historians were writing for selected audiences with particular agendas. Much like today?s newspapers who offer either liberal of conservative views, etc
All the best
Baracutei

 

[Chip]

Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction.

Thanks Baracutei. The above statement is unfortunately true and honestly a disgrace to the profession and scientists as a whole. I honestly still have a problem understanding why intelligent people would be so prejudiced against a people and their legacy. Then again, this is sadly a prejudiced world we live in and cases like this once again prove that it has no boundary, language or color.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Exxtol,

Some have made very peculiar anthropological statements such as “the Indian blood that did mix with the Spanish and Africans became diluted so at the present time there is no one in the Dominican Republic with Native American Ancestry.

I do find that statement very peculiar. Why couldn't the same be said of Spanish or African blood. Was their population size that much bigger than the number of Tainos, and the same does not apply? When the Spaniards landed in DR their number was far less that the Tainos. Just throwing some questions out there. If at all possible could you be kind enough to give us some sources of the above statement. Much appreciative of your answer.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Exxtol,

Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction.

I need to get something clarified. Are you saying that there are individuals in the DR that are direct descendants of Taino inhabitants that have not mixed with any other group and are lets say "pure Taino blood" or that there are individuals that are descendants of Taino inhabitants but there has been some mixing down through the years with European, African etc. groups.

 

[NALs]

Exxtol,

Thank you for your questions and observations. Unfortunately when I’m able to tune in to DR1 I am usually at work and send off these rapid fire emails and do not explain as deeply as I should. That said, with regards to the current study the samples have not yet been totally sequenced, they will soon. The results thus far are staggering to say the very least.

This mtDNA study does not specifically look for Taino mtDNA. It simply looks for mtDNA in general. The purpose of the study is multi-faceted. One is to answer the question as to whether, if at all, there truly is Native American descent on the island. Most historians claim that the Taino became extinct 30 years after contact. Some have made very peculiar anthropological statements such as “the Indian blood that did mix with the Spanish and Africans became diluted so at the present time there is no one in the Dominican Republic with Native American Ancestry. This mtDNA test demonstrates that this is a fallacy. I might add that for me this has nothing to do with “size”. It is a matter of facts. Is there Indian ancestry on the island? The answer is yes. How much? Perhaps these tests can give us a clue.

Second the test attempts to trace human migrations to the island. From this test and similar ones conducted in Puerto Rico it has become clear that my Taino ancestors had both Yucatan and Amazonian ancestors themselves. The first migrations to the islands were from the Yucatan approximately 7 thousand years ago. Then around 4 thousand years ago, various Arawakan speakers from the Amazon River basin began arriving. It was a mixture off all these peoples that gave rise to the Taino people.

As for the areas where the samples were taken and taking statistical data into consideration…. of course the samples were random. Many samples came from major cities such as Santo Domingo and Santiago. Most however were from every municipality on the island. Most of us who identify with Taino and the new cadre of modern historians claim that the Taino escaped into the mountains and were able to maintain cultural, genetic and linguistic integrity in various forms up to modern times. So of course this study needed to go into isolated communities as well. After all, they do count, yes?

For the sake of argument I would say that perhaps a deeper study needs to be done in the DR. But you must admit that a sampling of 614 people is pretty large (and the only one of its kind) and the results have either been disappointing or up-lifting, depending on your particular stance on Taino continuities.

In my experience I have found that once people have made up their minds on a particular subject they very rarely change their minds. Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction. You must understand that in our historical past, most historians were writing for selected audiences with particular agendas. Much like today’s newspapers who offer either liberal of conservative views, etc
All the best
Baracutei

Thanks Baracutay!

To me, these findings say one thing, beyond the obvious.

That is, that Dominicans have always known who we are as a people, country, culture, etc. and much of the doubts and confusions about Dominican culture/identity was created by foreigners thinking they "know" Dominicans better than the Dominicans themselves!

1. Dominicans knew about the Taino heritage/blood that still permeates much of the population, culture, etc.

2. Post-era of Trujillo, foreign "experts" came in judging Dominican culture through their foreign "filters", reaching conclusions that the Dominican reference to Taino, their culture, etc was an evil attempt on the part of the elite to make Dominicans delusional of their identity by hiding the "obvious" via extinct people's and cultures.

3. Now that many Dominicans are beginning to accept the prevailing notions that was created by the foreign "experts", blood tests results shows that Dominicans were right and the foreign "experts" were the ones who were delusional.

Ha ha ha, life is so funny.... at times.

For those DR1ers who might be tempted to create another detour by responding to this post, please don't waste your (or anyone else's) time and/or DR1's bandwidth!

-NALs

 

[Exxtol]

For those DR1ers who might be tempted to create another detour by responding to this post, please don't waste your (or anyone else's) time and/or DR1's bandwidth!

-NALs

Typical Nals. Your way or the highway. Perhaps, one should take heed of their own advice for a change?

If you don't want or desire a response then why post at all...... in the debate forum at that?

--Exxtol

 

[Exxtol]

Most historians claim that the Taino became extinct 30 years after contact. Some have made very peculiar anthropological statements such as ?the Indian blood that did mix with the Spanish and Africans became diluted so at the present time there is no one in the Dominican Republic with Native American Ancestry.

Identity literature published by Dominican historians, anthropologists, and sociologists, overwhelmingly concede the survival of the Taino in culture and dna, and certainly my view on the matter have been shaped by them, not foreign historians. I would gladly list titles as well as authors, but unfortunately, the literature that I do possess on dominican identity are not presently in my possession.

As for the areas where the samples were taken and taking statistical data into consideration?. of course the samples were random. Many samples came from major cities such as Santo Domingo and Santiago. Most however were from every municipality on the island.

Okay. I was merely commenting on your post and your response on the matter. Here you are saying that the samples were chosen at random, that every member of the DR had an equal chance of being chosen in the study, but in your previous post you did not. I suppose I stand corrected.

Many historians are very upset with the current mtDNA conclusions since it does not support their claims of total extinction.

I'm curious to know of some of these historians. Are they Dominican?

Regards,

Exxtol

 

[Exxtol]

What would be the "short form" of this opinion? And what might it be based on?

Hi Chip,

You can search this particular thread for my views on the Taino in the DR. I've discussed it at length before and rather not get into much of the same.

--Exxtol

 

[Chip]

Hi Chip,

You can search this particular thread for my views on the Taino in the DR. I've discussed it at length before and rather not get into much of the same.

--Exxtol

Well now you understand why I asked for the short form. Nonetheless, I think it can be fairly summarized by you comment:

In rural areas, due to genetic isolation it is plausible to assume the existence of a closer to pure Taino bloodline; however in comparison to the overwhelmingly mixed African & European majorirty, there numbers are miniscule

From reading your numerous posts it is clear the "miniscule" reference not only refers to dna heritage, but to other contributions too, such as vocabulary and culture.

Furthermore, Baracutei has repeatedly pointed out cultural and vocabulary contributions and yet in spite of this evidence you stand firm in your stance. Also, now that recent evidence comes out showing that the dna contribution to the Dominican population as a whole is a lot more than "miniscule", you apparently are unswayed in your opinion - which is just that, an opinion unbased in facts and reality, nothing more and nothing less.

What we would realy like to know is what you have against knowing the truth about the Tainos and their contribution to the Dominican melting pot of cultures and bloodlines? Why would an apparent intelligent person take such an undefensible, unrational stance? I think it smacks of real prejudice, sorry, and how ironical too.

 

[Exxtol]

From reading your numerous posts it is clear the "miniscule" reference not only refers to dna heritage, but to other contributions too, such as vocabulary and culture.

No, not true at all. In fact, I have argued time and time again that the Taino component was romanticized, over-emphasized, and pushed by the Trujillo and Balaguer administrations to abscond and minimize the DR's African heritage--primarily IMO to negate "race" as a commonality to Haiti. One example, the substitution of the word "mulatto" for "indio" in colloquial language.

Furthermore, Baracutei has repeatedly pointed out cultural and vocabulary contributions and yet in spite of this evidence you stand firm in your stance.

No, I think you've misunderstood my "opinion". I suggest you go back and re-read all of my posts in this thread.

What we would realy like to know is what you have against knowing the truth about the Tainos and their contribution to the Dominican melting pot of cultures and bloodlines? Why would an apparent intelligent person take such an undefensible, unrational stance? I think it smacks of real prejudice, sorry, and how ironical too.

I have never suggested any of the above. Like I said reading the entire thread and my posts on the matter would help.

--Exxtol

 

[Chip]

Exxtol

With all due respect, the comment I took from your post was fairly recent and telling:

closer to pure Taino bloodline; however in comparison to the overwhelmingly mixed African & European majorirty, there numbers are miniscule

You are obviously addressing the dna heritage of the Tainos with respect to Dominicans in this quote, yet I read further on back and you were debating quite fervently with Baracutei that many of the words and cultural practices he claimed that are Taino in origin are actually African in origin.

It would only follow, that "miniscule" pretty much sums up your opinion of Taino contribution in general.

Perhaps you think now that "minuscule" was a poor choice of words, but nonetheless it is out there for everybody to see and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has drawn this conclusion. Furthermore, you have as of yet acquiesed to the fact that there is a whole lot more Taino dna heritage than just miniscule.

While I do understand the obvious and blatant denial of the Spanish historians for the Taino contribution(racism), I don't understand why so many afrocentrists get all up in arms about the Taino having more than an insignificant contribution to the DR's people and heritage. I could easily reference 20 posts in this thread from at least 5 different people or more. Please explain why this isn't a form of prejudice equal to the neglecting the African contribution to the DR's population and heritage.

 

[Exxtol]

You are obviously addressing the dna heritage of the Tainos with respect to Dominicans in this quote, yet I read further on back and you were debating quite fervently with Baracutei that many of the words and cultural practices he claimed that are Taino in origin are actually African in origin.

I have never debated that "words and cultural practices he claimed that are Taino in origin are actually African in origin." If you find any such statement that directly corroborates your supposed recollection I stand corrected.

It would only follow, that "miniscule" pretty much sums up your opinion of Taino contribution in general.

The argument has never been about the Taino cultural contribution--it has always been about the amount of Taino blood within the Dominican population. In fact, IMO I find the DR government and several views of dominican identity, to be much more open to the recognition and acknowledgement of Taino contribution to Dominican culture in general.

Perhaps you think now that "minuscule" was a poor choice of words, but nonetheless it is out there for everybody to see and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has drawn this conclusion. Furthermore, you have as of yet acquiesed to the fact that there is a whole lot more Taino dna heritage than just miniscule.

If you're going to quote me, qualify my statements correctly.

"closer to pure Taino bloodline; however in comparison to the overwhelmingly mixed African & European majorirty, there numbers are miniscule."

Secondly, you're basing your "facts" off of one study, that as of yet has not been completed, and imo suffers from statistical biases--good for you. I am not so easily swayed.

While I do understand the obvious and blatant denial of the Spanish historians for the Taino contribution(racism), I don't understand why so many afrocentrists get all up in arms about the Taino having more than an insignificant contribution to the DR's people and heritage. I could easily reference 20 posts in this thread from at least 5 different people or more. Please explain why this isn't a form of prejudice equal to the neglecting the African contribution to the DR's population and heritage.

I am an afrocentrist because I side with Dominican literature that states otherwise? Grow up Chip, you don't see me calling you a "Tainocentrist". I have never claimed to be one so please do not reference me as such.

Remember, no room for the "race card" on this board.

--Exxtol

 

[Baracutay]

I do find that statement very peculiar. Why couldn't the same be said of Spanish or African blood. Was their population size that much bigger than the number of Tainos, and the same does not apply? When the Spaniards landed in DR their number was far less that the Tainos. Just throwing some questions out there. If at all possible could you be kind enough to give us some sources of the above statement. Much appreciative of your answer.

Hidalgo,
If you have read as extensivley as I have on the Taino question you will find that aside from a few Indigenistas in the DR, most of the literature on the classic Taino overwhelmingly states that they were virtualy "wiped" out. The most popular viewpoint is "by 1545 there were less than 500 Taino left- Francine Jacobs-the Tainos the people who met Columbus-1992 p. 91". This sentiment is expressed by such Domincan authors such as Juan Bosch and Valioz-Maggiolo, etc, etc
Others have made the same exact statement above - almost as though they dont really investigate but rather reiterate what has already been written. Simply google the subject and you will see that page after page clearly states that the Taino All died due to diseases and that the population today is overwhelmingly African and Spanish. If these statements and declartions are true, then certainly finding mtDNA at the rate that it is appearing could be rather discomforting for all those who have made such statements. Dont you think?

 

[Baracutay]

I need to get something clarified. Are you saying that there are individuals in the DR that are direct descendants of Taino inhabitants that have not mixed with any other group and are lets say "pure Taino blood" or that there are individuals that are descendants of Taino inhabitants but there has been some mixing down through the years with European, African etc. groups.

I need to understand what you mean by direct descendants. What would an indirect descend descendat be? LOL
As for whether there are un-Mixed Taino in the DR/Caribbean I have stated many times on this post that the Taino just as the Spanish and African could not and cannot be held to standards of purity. For example you ask if there is pure Taino blood on the island, I must ask , are there any pure Spanish on the island as well? Please remember that the Spanish who arrived from Spain were themselves a mixture of many ethnicities. So were the Africans that arrived. And for that matter- so were the Taino. There is no such thing as a pure anything.
When people meet me for example, I am always asked if I am a pure Indian, simply because Indians are probably the only people who are held to such standards. So when I am asked this question my answer is "yes I am pure-I am pure as the white driven snow"!

The scope of this mtdna study is not to prove that there is more Taino than anything else. Nor does it attempt to answer questions of purity. It simply answers the question that has kept this thread alive as well as the question many Dominicans and Caribbean peoples have had for a long time- Is there taino descent on the islands. The answer is yes. More so than even we who are involved in this expected. But not enough for us to say ALL DOMINICANS ARE INDIANS or African or Spanish. What can be concluded is that the Taino deserves equal footing in our historical,cultural and genetic makeup and should be taken off that romantic pedestal where he has been placed so that no one can touch him. Ever notice that Dominican writers never mention the Taino as ancestors but rather precursors? Or how about this statement" Nuestros Indios eran....."
All the best
Baracutei

 

[bob saunders]

I would think that with even today there being isolated pockets of the DR that are hard to reach that back in the 1600-1800s there would have been numerous isolated valleys...etc for Taino to hide and live their life peacefully, and intermarry with local peasants without the knowledge of the authorities. The majority of Canadians that can track their ancestry in Canada for more 3-4 generations will also have Indigenous DNA showing up.