The Structure Of A Barrio

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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Snuffy if you will allow me I would like to offer my 2 cents into this thread as to how I interpret the situation here in the DR and where I see it going.

There are times that I reminisce to my younger days. Just like many of those mentioned in this thread of playing outside till called in, knowing all your neighbors and the general comradely feeling held within the community. This ?laid back? feeling allowed people to retire for the night with their doors open in the warm summer nights to allow the cool breeze to circulate throughout the house. It allowed you to leave your keys in the ignition due to the fact that you didn?t need to look for them at five in the morning as you left for work in the city. The occasional mention on the news of a house break-in or a car being stolen always occurred in a distant part of your world and had no effect on you other then to comment as to how bad some people in the world were.

This form of life was alive and well until at least 1964 in the US throughout the majority of the country. It was at this time in my life that I decided to join the military and see the world. It was a few years later that I returned to my country of birth and was met by a large group of strangers calling me a baby killer and other choice words that I realized that things had changed drastically from that which was evident when I left. This was further reinforced when I got to my old neighborhood where I grew up. There were a number of new neighbors that stayed to themselves. People no longer left their doors open but rather locked them at night and removed the keys from the ignition of their cars.

Upon questioning all the old neighbors as to the change from the old habits I was always met with the same answers. The reason for this change and isolation all seemed to revolve around drugs and the crime that it produced through the want or need to purchase it and the desire a person felt to distance themselves from the possibility of involvement with people of that caliber.

Through the years this isolation has continued to grow and the need or imagined need to protect ones family and self from the effects that crime and drugs has played on the shaping of community life has reinforced this isolation. As the security of the child has come under so much strain through the corner sales of drugs, drive by random shootings and similar situations the parents have had to change their concept of life in the community. This has required the supposed isolation of family and therefore the need of things like television and other things to try to fill that gap lost from lack of interaction with the community. Added conveniences like air condition have only helped in this isolation in that it affords the family more comfort in its isolation.

In the time that I have lived here in the DR I have seen a gradual increase in the drugs and the crime associated with it increasing and as such I think it has had a direct result is the increased isolation of the Dominican people. The Dominicans have not had, in the last 50 years, any firm assurance that its policing agencies would adequately protect them. With the failure of being able to distinguish the good guys from the bad only reinforces the feeling of helplessness and the need for isolation for protection.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news as I too thoroughly enjoy the intermingling offered by the Dominican culture but I honestly believe that will all change as the DR experiences the same changes that transpired in the US. The scourge of drugs is a proven problem with its destruction on humanity and the crime that always follows in its footsteps. With the vast network of rehabilitation centers, police agencies, court system and jails the US has it has failed year after year to get a handle on this problem. With that which the DR has in resources, or lack thereof, and the steady rise in drug use, sales and transport here how can this country not end up going through major changes in its culture?

Rick
 

dv8

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Sep 27, 2006
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sorry, my last post was a bit off topic.
snuffy, can we have a nice, maybe even gated barrio, with shops open 24h but without the music blasting out? where everyone knows everyone but nobody bothers each other? big windows, no bars. neighbours saying "hello" to each other but NOT inquiring about your life?
no? i thought so.... :ermm:
 

Lambada

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Matilda...what is your secret that people come from all over the country to see you?

I'm going to boldly hazard a guess here. :) Yes I appreciate Matilda's husband had something to with it & the respect that people have for him but I think it's something more & she is too modest to say so. I think she has made herself part of her community; she welcomes visitors, she feeds them, she wakes up smiling (all her own words) and my guess is she so doesn't fit the stereotype the neighbours might previously have had about an expat that they're interested in her as a person because she is interested in them as people. She doesn't moan (even after the shooting when heaven knows she had enough reason to), she gets on with things and when it all seems a bit much she laughs about it. Am I right, Matilda? And even though she doesn't live in a barrio (at least I don't think she does) she has a natural 'barrio sociability' and people respond to that.

I don't live in a barrio either but I am naturally gregarious and very curious about others. Now if I lived in dv8's Russian flats it probably wouldn't matter how gregarious I was, but here in the DR whatever type of area one lives in, if one exudes an interest in others, they respond in like vein.

Snuffy, when you said you wanted to design a big expat barrio, I assume you didn't mean a barrio for big expats :cheeky: but you didn't, did you, mean a barrio for mainly expats? Because a lot of us didn't come here to be near other expats................
 

Snuffy

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May 3, 2002
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Rick, I am surprised at how much it has changed in just six years.

Anyone need rose bushes...you can get them here for about 100RD each. Just went and bought several. Had to track them down.

Wow those russian walls sound STUPID. Why would they waste so much material, time, and effort? Was it for insulation from the cold?

Do some expats come here to escape the type people from where they came. Because these people are probably just like you and I. Only difference is...for whatever reason....they can't escape. So they make the best of it. They probably don't enjoy many of the changes we speak of...either. The people I know say "damn, you have it good". I say, "I do? I don't have the 120K a year job that you have. You are heading for a million." I miss making good money. But they still insist my life is a good one.
Maybe it is just a case of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. But I'm pretty sure that if you take most people out of that environment and stick them here for a few years they become more human...and stop and smell the...........roses.

OK...whatever your living situation...if it isn't working for you then don't be afraid to change it. Just do it. Move across town, to the hills, to another city, to another country. But don't live in unwanted isolation and even depression. Be mindful of the design of your neighborhood...especially here in the DR where you do have more options. Don't be surprised if you find me living in a barrio one day.
 

Chris

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Oct 21, 2002
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A small note - Let's keep it DR related. Example stories about Russian Windows and US Small Town Living are fine ... but you all are drifting off topic here as you will see from deleted threads. Come-on its Christmas .. I don't wanna work! Keep it on track!
 
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Snuffy

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Chris...what are the exact rules. They appeared to be related, comparisons, and perhaps slight straying. But the discussion moved in an appropriate direction. Not my website but I didn't see anything inappropriate. I'm done.
 

Chris

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I would much appreciate if you could continue Snuffy! This is a wonderful and worth while topic to explore.

The rules are simple ... Keep it DR related. Any comparison, story or related piece of information is welcome. But let's keep it generally inside of our own shores. None of need comparisons between this country or that .. Again, the stories are wonderful .. keep them coming!
 

LatinoRican

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Apr 11, 2004
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Villa Agricola c.1977

When I started to come to the DR regularly around 1976-77, I used to visit a friend's family in Villa Agricola. Calle Juana Saltitopa to be exact. Maybe some of you have been in that area. We went to the beach and would return in the late afternoon to wash off the salt with a bucket of cold water in a small shack at the back of the house. As night fell, the adults would put out rocking chairs or wooden boxes on the sidewalk and talk about sports, politics, or the day's events. Everone who passed by got a cheerful, "Buenas noches! Como esta?" and maybe stop to chat for a few minutes. The children would watch TV on an old, black and white set until their mother decided it was time for them to be put to bed. I enjoyed those days thinking how content these people were with the most basic of comforts. Of course, at a certain hour, I left to sleep in an air-conditioned hotel room. The family was lucky if they had electricity to run a fan. Like someone already pointed out on this thread, we tend to romanticize certain moments in our lives. Only later did I see the hardships that the family was going through. I would not have liked living in Villa Agricola. Apparently, the family I used to visit did not like it either as they do not live there anymore. They live apart in small, cramped, bug-ridden apartments in New York, but it is New York nevertheless.
 

Celt202

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May 22, 2004
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The rules are simple ... Keep it DR related. Any comparison, story or related piece of information is welcome. But let's keep it generally inside of our own shores. None of need comparisons between this country or that .. Again, the stories are wonderful .. keep them coming!

Why?

Being that many of the members on DR1 come from other countries comparisons are highly relevant to the OP. What can we learn from barrios, what are their charms, what are their drawbacks; drawing comaparisons to one's country of birth and talking about your own preferences and relating it to your own perception of barrios is right on topic.

Moot point....

This thread has already been given a cold shower and the OP has apparently quit the thread in disgust.
 

bigbird

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May 1, 2005
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Chris...what are the exact rules. They appeared to be related, comparisons, and perhaps slight straying. But the discussion moved in an appropriate direction. Not my website but I didn't see anything inappropriate. I'm done.

Another good thread bites the dust................
 

macocael

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Aug 3, 2004
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Snuffy, great thread. You might want to read a very important book that tackles this very subject straight on, but in the North American context: Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities. She raises many of the same points you listed -- the structure is in fact important, though not the only factor.

The things you describe are very much the manners and mores of the campo here, and it is no surprise that these people when they move to the barrios bring their culture of hospitality and close community with them. There are still many barrios in SD that are relatively crime free, and while petty thievery may be present (as it is pretty much everywhere here), the greater criminal abuses are not. I have family in Manganagua, a barrio that has all the elements you describe and them some -- they even have their own gallera. I reallly love the place. At the fringes the streets form a grid system, but at its heart it is a labyrinth of tiny passageways and houses built in impossible configurations. There is some crime, some drugs, sure, but the place is not physically a threat. Now Juan Saltitopa, which LatinoRican mentioned, a street I also know well, has turned into the sort of place where you really do not want to be walking around too much on your own -- it's very caliente these days. What determines how a barrio goes bad? Interesting question. Drugs have had a large role to play recently in the degradation of these neighborhoods, and it is a real shame. Like I say, there was always a certain amount of low level crime, but nowadays the crime is more violent. There are guns and drugs and gangs and the influence of the media, etc. Nonetheless, I know many barrios where such problems are in abeyance and I too love being in them.

As Lambada pointed out, part of enjoying these places is earning the respect and friendship of the people, but that is really a simple manner. I have known gringos down here who could never fall into the dominican manner, couldnt salute everyone they met in the street with an "adios" or "saludo" etc and couldnt ever seem to "warm up", get huggy and touchy feely. It can take time but it is really not so hard (oughtnt to be anyway) and once you get used to it, you find it does wonders for your soul. I remember being put off initially by the unexpected visits, the fact that, when I was half dead with gripe, everyone would visit and arrange themselves round or on the sickbed without it occurring to them that it might be an imposition -- because of course for them it isnt, it is on the contrary a social obligation to visit and comfort the sick. Once you are used to all this, the "sentimental education" is well worth it.

I fear like Rick that much of this may eventually disappear. I remember farm life in the middle States, my great grandparents and grandparents, the community life, the simple but civilized manners -- still exists certainly, but suburban culture has largely supplanted it, and I find that trend full of worrisome elements -- the isolation, the alienation, the wasteland of American consumerism. Is it any wonder that the repeated mass killings in high schools invariably appear in these suburban areas? DR is fast developing though the rural element remains important, but I wonder how long it will be before so many people are living in areas like Piantini, in apartment blocks rather than small houses, and drive rather than walk around. will the Dominican goodnatured and sociable character transcend the effects of development, or will it succumb? We live in interesting times.
 

cobraboy

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Jul 24, 2004
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-- the isolation, the alienation, the wasteland of American consumerism.
It's so horrible, the US can't even put fences up to keep literally millikns out.

macocael said:
Is it any wonder that the repeated mass killings in high schools invariably appear in these suburban areas?
Too many rats in a cage. Two rats get along fine in a cage. 50 rats will devour each other in the same cave.
 

Lambada

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will the Dominican goodnatured and sociable character transcend the effects of development, or will it succumb? We live in interesting times.

We sure do! Call me an optimist but I think the good natured and sociable character will transcend the effects of development. Why? Because I think it is inbuilt, part of the collective consciousness if you will (or maybe even collective unconsciousness). My current neighbours have never lived in a barrio in their lives; Bayardo is, in the main 'old' money and not nouveau riche. That same character is here. The very first Junta de Vecinos meeting I went to, I already knew some people but the locals all knew each other. I can't tell you the efforts they went to to extend my range of getting to know other people. Truly hospitable. And that has spilled over into situations where I meet these people in different locations, around town, out shopping etc. All I ever needed to do was to show that I had time to stop and chat and was genuinely interested in other people. Like you say, not exactly difficult.
 

dv8

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Sep 27, 2006
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chicken soup for the soul. not!

gee, my yesterday's nostalgia for yesteryears got my posts deleted. emotions are off topic, apparently.

i can't believe i already do "when i was young" talk.

barrios that were are no more, no matter whether we talk about unspoiled DR, quiet american suburbs or communist muli-block housing. and even barrios of today are not attractive. i admit, they are colourful and they make great pictures to send to friends but none of the comfort-addicted gringos would want to live there, no a/c (big thing for expats, the mighty a/c, and yes, i have that too in a new apartment), no hot water, no cable tv, no internet. instead: screams of kids, barks of countless dogs, stink of open sewage, mud up to your ankles.

manolo t. justo is all dug up. more and bigger holes are necessary. so we have to go through (still) ungated bayardo. now, that's a barrio. one knows the neighbours because there is no more then few houses along one street, bars are fitted but only on the ground floor. dogs are rather fat and friendly than vicious (ask lambada ;) ).

times changed, they did. no one in bayardo sits outside in the evenings, people either kill themselves working for those grand houses or dine with other sharks. kids don't play outside, they sit inside playing computer games. that's the way it is....

don't get me wrong, i LIKE bayardo....

snuffy, don't shy away....
 

Snuffy

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May 3, 2002
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OK...I'm back.

Chris is a great moderator and I don't even know what was deleted but my feeling is that unless the thread goes completely off topic or is in bad taste then just leave it alone. But it isn't my website and I am not the moderator. I do respect the job of the moderator and I do respect the rules.

Rice makes me fat and slow and my wife keeps putting about 2 pounds on my plate even after I have told her two dozen times...just put a little rice. Hmmm...is she trying to get me fatter for a reason?

I had to come back because a few items caught my attention and had to be commented on. So let me reread and start....give me a second....
 

Chris

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gee, my yesterday's nostalgia for yesteryears got my posts deleted. emotions are off topic, apparently.

Oh No! Surely not emotions and nostalgia :cheeky:
Just to get the issue clear, posts with no DR content get deleted. Posts that potentially start a flame war, get deleted. If you don't like it, ask Robert for your money back. Its Christmas and he may just do so :laugh:

Carry on! This thread has a way to go yet! Now I'm getting nostalgic! Hi Snuffy! Good to see you.
 

dv8

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just kidding, chris, i know when my attention slips i drift back to those days when... oops!
 

Snuffy

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""I would not have liked living in Villa Agricola. Apparently, the family I used to visit did not like it either as they do not live there anymore. They live apart in small, cramped, bug-ridden apartments in New York, but it is New York nevertheless.""

I venture that you would not have had a problem with it if you had lived there all your life. If you were conditioned to living there the things that you think brought them pain...perhaps did not. And they being ignorant probably did not know the gifts that they had. Someone comes along with a story to tell about New York and gets them to dreaming. They believed the life was better across the sea. And at night when they sit in their lonely apartment...ISOLATED...they probably feel the tug of the barrio and it is physically painful at times to be separated from it. Is their life better today? I believe that could be debated.

Do you think that because they have A/C they are happier? I have spent many nights here in this country suffering from the heat. The heat tears me down in the summer. I am sick often. Why did I stay? Because of my wife and daughter. I would live in hell if that is where they are. I would suffer that. Suffering is part of life. Suffering is what makes the nonsuffering pleasant. Have you ever been real sick with a flu...vomiting...etc....and then you reach a point where you sense that your body is past the worst part...the worst part of the suffering...and you are lying there and enjoying the process of your body feeling much better. It is a very good feeling but you would not have experienced it if you had not been sick. If we take all the suffering away you will be miserable. And many people are. Suffering is a concept that we perhaps do not explore enough...to really see it for what it is. When my wifes mother comes here to visit...she sleeps in the guest room and in there it feels like the air is stopped and it is hot. I say...put a fan in there...my wife says...she doesn't want a fan. In other words...she is not suffering. If the people are smiling then the people are okay. Bring them your knowledge of medications that will make their lives better. Bring them food or teach them how to make enough food for themselves. But they don't need your toys, your a/c...they will think they do if they see others with it. I think a SMILE means something. It means you are okay. Tears mean something else. And I would say that depression is a much greater problem in the modern world than it is here. But teach these people that they lack something or that their lives are not good...and they will eventually believe it.
 

Snuffy

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May 3, 2002
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Cobraboy....they believe in the dream...so they go to the USA. But that doesn't mean that life will be happier for them in the USA. It of course depends on the specific individual circumstance and I have read some horror stories about life in poor areas of Mexico that don't compare to the DR. Just because people want to go to the USA doesn't mean that their lives are going to be better for it.