I never said that I was a lawyer.....Please point out to me where that was written. Like I said I can see this getting VERY UGLY with people coming down on both sides of this coin. I never said that I like the laws only that we have to respet them.
- Thread starter Caribbeandreamto
- Start date
Undocumented Haitians
Its always the same all over the world. A country needs more labor force and search it in other countries where there are enough who want to work but there is no work, they invite them over to work, those people build a life in that other country and as long as the economy works fine, there is no problem but as soon as the economy turns bad, the first people who are pointed to are those people.
I feel for those children, they shouldn't be the victim of the system. EVERY child has the right on proper education AND a diploma.
I feel for those children, they shouldn't be the victim of the system. EVERY child has the right on proper education AND a diploma.
This initiative is happening on a State by State basis. It will fail miserably as any State that adopts such a law will only have it struck down by the Supreme Court as "unconstitutional". The US Constitution clearly states that ANYONE born on US soil is a US citizen and no amount of political wrangling is ever going to change that.
It's amazing how the culture of the Southwestern States has changed in the past few decades thanks to the efforts of political groups like LULAC and La Raza. In a State like New Mexico with majority hispanic population the political power and the economic power which follows it were denied to the majority of the population through the use of clever election zone manipulation tactics (gerrymandering) and outright intimidation since Statehood. The hispanic rights groups which I mentioned among others have brought pressure to bear and have restored the proper representation to the majority of the State's population. Now everybody from the Governor on down reflects the population they serve and things will never go back to the way they were before. Remember, everything west of Nebraska used to BE Mexico.
The immigration concerns on the US East Coast are more like the problems facing the Dominican government. There is basically a generation of people from neighboring countries who are undocumanted and they are having children in order to anchor themselves in the States. Most of the undocumented workers, like D.R.'s Haitian visitors work no toil at day laborer jobs, babysit, clean toilets and cut grass for far less than the minimum wage. They are paid in cash and they live apart from the system, yet within it. Some get lucky and find regular, full time work under false credentials. I remember reading about a group of over 20 people being busted who all shared a single social security ID. It's all good until somebody got greedy and tried to file a return for taxes withheld. The problem with allowing this type of secret society (for the American and Dominican govt.) is that the people therein rely on their own community to govern and police itself. Loan sharks, drugs and scammers abound and crimes of all sorts are commonplace within their shadow World. The people who run things in these communities are usually gangsters, murderers and all the worst sorts of people imaginable and their only aim is to enrich themselves at the expense of their fellow countrymen. The crimes always spread out to affect the communities-at-large and it is for that reason that these governments must find some sort of compromise solution to include these people. The problems which their conditions create will not go away by themselves.
Both "alien" Haitians in the Dominican Republic and Hispanics in the United States should be viewed as assets to their adopted Countries and provided a path to prove themselves worthy of citizenship. Why not put them to work on the Border Patrol? They already know more about the borders than the guys currently working there and I'll bet not a one of them would risk losing their shot at citizenship to let a cousin sneak through for any amount of money. In times of national emergency many hispanics were offerred a path to citizenship through military service and their representation among Congressional Medal of Honor recipients is disproportionally high as a result. I'll bet that those who have put the work in and received their citizenship understand the constitution better than 95% of native H.S. grad's in the US.
If you give most people the incentive and the opportunity to be honest, they will.
She didn't break any law, I agree. The problem is her parents didn't comply with the existing laws of the land when they had the chance to do so. True, Noisilus Siri Yan, the father, came here legally under a worker program but apparently he did not follow through an became a legal Dominican citizen. The mother born to a Haitian descendent on Dominican soil has the same problem; her mother didn't comply with existing laws and became a Dominican citizen. How do I know this? Not once in a 24+ minutes video did the parents show any Dominican issued document, even if old and deteriorated, that demonstrate either Noisilus Siri Yan or his wife, the mother of these unfortunate children, obtained Dominican citizenship at some point in their lives. You now want us to accept on face value that Noisilus Siri Yan filed petitions to the Dominican state for citizenship after or during his LEGAL stay in the Dominican Republic. His worker program status at some point must have ended and at that point his migratory status changed turning in to an illegal immigrant. I understand your point pedro, but the world is a place of rules and we can't just go discounting those rule whenever it is convenient for us or because we dislike the outcome of a particular situation.
pedrochemical, by your rational, if a person breaks the law unknowingly or to do good, the law somehow doesn't apply. If you rob a bank and give the money to a needed kid for a life saving operation, the law applies to you as a thief to the fullest extent; no matter what you do with the money. If I steal a piece of land and leave it to my kid, that don't know I stole it, when and if the theft is discovered my kids will lose the privilege of ownership through no fault of their own. The bottom line is this: Does the law condem illicit acts that bears benign fruits? Are the laws elastic enough to be twisted to the point of being broken because of ignorance or good deeds?
NotLurking
If the produce more than they consume, yes, they are assets. Otherwise, no, they are a drag on the society and should be viewed as such.
There are already laws in place that absolutely show a path to citizenship. Many aliens follow those laws and reap the benefits of doing so. The illegals simply do not abide by them. Every illegal alien willfully broke the laws they knew about in advance. Hard to have sympathy for that attitude.
I just sent a notice to the DGII, to expect a decline of USD$100 this year from your boycott!
How about the children of Haitians in the D.R.? Are they "lawbreakers" for being born in the wrong place?
Many of those aliens who "follow the laws and reap those benefits" actually bought their privileges. I know at least two Washington DC area attorneys specializing in immigration (one of whom is a retired INS attorney) law who absolutely guarrantee "legal" entry, visa issuance and citizenship for the right price. I have seen their work and their guarrantees are real.
"Illegals" simply stated are the ones who couldn't afford to buy legitimacy.
However we look at it, the Dominican constitution prior to the last revision where the entitlement of who's Dominican and who's not based on legal status as resident or in transit, created the momentum for the Gov to address the statelessness of many people like those described in the video.
You can't strip people of their nationality by rendering a revision of the constitution retroactively! It just doesn't work like that!
The Dominican gov must address the issue head first! All kids born to parents prior to the revision must be recognized as Dominican citizens, just as the constitution interpreted to the last date of the revision and validation.
Those born after the revision are NOT Dominican citizens, but in effect, if they were born to a parent of Haitian ancestry which falls in the category of those prior to the revision and dully citizens as intended, they also must enjoy the Jus sanguinis/jus solis their parents bestow upon them!
Those who will not fall under this category of citizenship right, would be those born to people in-transit as the date the revision entered legal status. Like kids born to mothers from Haiti that came to give birth here after the date, they are not to be justified for the right to citizenship.
The Dominican gov understands that moving to that end as of now, would be impractical as we face elections next year. This would create a real problem with the other political parties and general population!!!
I believe that after the elections we'll see a very dynamic situation where this issue is addressed promptly!
We're talking about more than 500,000 kids and close to 250,000 adults here!
You can't strip people of their nationality by rendering a revision of the constitution retroactively! It just doesn't work like that!
The Dominican gov must address the issue head first! All kids born to parents prior to the revision must be recognized as Dominican citizens, just as the constitution interpreted to the last date of the revision and validation.
Those born after the revision are NOT Dominican citizens, but in effect, if they were born to a parent of Haitian ancestry which falls in the category of those prior to the revision and dully citizens as intended, they also must enjoy the Jus sanguinis/jus solis their parents bestow upon them!
Those who will not fall under this category of citizenship right, would be those born to people in-transit as the date the revision entered legal status. Like kids born to mothers from Haiti that came to give birth here after the date, they are not to be justified for the right to citizenship.
The Dominican gov understands that moving to that end as of now, would be impractical as we face elections next year. This would create a real problem with the other political parties and general population!!!
I believe that after the elections we'll see a very dynamic situation where this issue is addressed promptly!
We're talking about more than 500,000 kids and close to 250,000 adults here!
Yes, Sir.
Money often defines the difference between right and wrong. (regretably, unfortunately and shamelessly) That's why some will kill for it.
Oh, please. If they can't follow the rules they shouldn't be in the DR or in the US. If they cannot support themselves they are a net drain on either society.
I feel sorry for the kids, but their parents KNEW better on several levels, and are responsible for their children's welfare.
So what if you know lawyers who make guarantees. Meaningless.
My wife stood in line for her US residency for 10 years and jumped through every hoop. I feel NO compassion for freeloaders.
If you're so compassionate, how about putting off a few of your "romance tours" and pay legal fees for some illegal's "path to citizenship" process?
Some kill for money to define the difference between right and wrong?
Really?
I thought some will kill for it for the stuff it buys that they can't...or won't...earn.
Silly me.
This is why judges have discretion regarding sentencing.
Can't argue with any of that.
But we are dealing with people and peoples' futures.
We are not dealing with land or used bank-notes.
For me "right and wrong" trumps "the law" - and where there is a dichotomy, the law should be updated to reflect "right and wrong".
Thank you. Instead of visiting the DR again I will send my vacation money to mi amor to spend in any way he wishes. And the condo I was ready to buy in Pueblo Bavaro can go to someone who is able to protect themselves better than I can in your country.
Not quite correct but I'll concede.
Huh? What do you mean by, "rendering a revision of the constitution retroactively!"? The constitution of 1966 contains the same wording as the 2002 revision with respect to nationality.
There is a change in the 2010 DR Constitution but the basic tenor with respect to nationality is the sameDR Constitution 1966-1994-2002 said:
DR Constitution 2010 said:
I agree.
uh? You lost me here. I suppose you are referring to descendents of illegal immigrants but it has been this way since the 1966 constitution.
The LAW determines who is in transit in this country and unfortunately for illegal immigrants the law has determined time and again that any and all illegal immigrant in the country are considered in transit (a non Dominican citizen or resident). But is has been this way since the 1966 DR Constitution.
Source: Global Legal Information Network DR Costitution 1966
Source: Dominican Republic: Constitutions DR Constitutions 1994-2010
NotLurking
Pedro, that's why we have laws, to set acceptable boundaries whether
you agree with them ( or me) is of no consequence, that said, who gives you the wisdom and/or authority to judge anyone ? Perhaps if you had taken the time to read later posts you would see where I apologized to JJ for my ill-informed rant , perhaps you should spend more time actually helping someone or something yourself. This site is for expression of opinion and your's has become mutt in my opinion. Have a nice day Pedro
...and that statement has what, exactly to do with the subject at hand?
Oh yeah. "When in doubt, deflect". Nice tactic. Fail!
Unreserved apologies to Barker -
I meant muggy...
Although Barker - a wise person on DR1 once said - "walk a mile in their shoes - you will then be a mile away and own their shoes!"
Life, as well as law, is not black and white.
It is fungible. But this is plain wrong. It is injustice.
That is bad enough.
But some of the people who holiday in D.R. then decide to come and live there and then believe they have some special insight allowing them to apply their questionable foreign morals..... this leaves a foul taste in the mouth.
You do not have to go far from the tourist zones to get into a Batey.
If people genuinely talked to the people that served them, sold them stuff and cleaned up after them then they would know. Of course a tourist is there to enjoy themselves and relax - so fair enough - that is not part of the deal.
But people who live here and benefit from the place have a duty to know some of the truth about what happens here.
I am not saying I am the expert but for some people the ex-pat bubble is stunning.
If people choose to be oblivious to the poverty and related problems all around them I am not surprised they continually get taken out by home invasions/robberies/sankies/chicas/lawyers/.
This mixture of ignorance, arrogance and a forum......
I meant muggy...
Although Barker - a wise person on DR1 once said - "walk a mile in their shoes - you will then be a mile away and own their shoes!"
Life, as well as law, is not black and white.
It is fungible. But this is plain wrong. It is injustice.
That is bad enough.
But some of the people who holiday in D.R. then decide to come and live there and then believe they have some special insight allowing them to apply their questionable foreign morals..... this leaves a foul taste in the mouth.
You do not have to go far from the tourist zones to get into a Batey.
If people genuinely talked to the people that served them, sold them stuff and cleaned up after them then they would know. Of course a tourist is there to enjoy themselves and relax - so fair enough - that is not part of the deal.
But people who live here and benefit from the place have a duty to know some of the truth about what happens here.
I am not saying I am the expert but for some people the ex-pat bubble is stunning.
If people choose to be oblivious to the poverty and related problems all around them I am not surprised they continually get taken out by home invasions/robberies/sankies/chicas/lawyers/.
This mixture of ignorance, arrogance and a forum......