Waste To Energy

jsizemore

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Aug 6, 2003
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redneck solution

ok I went to an isolated bay the other day just west of Sosua Abajo. The trouble is this beautiful bay was littered with plastic bottles and tires. I also seen the same thing on Lalaguna beach east of Caberete. So maybe domestic garbage would not work out but what about all the plastic and used tires along the beaches. Mother Nature already seperated it. A small steam turbine generator as a auxilery generator for one of the small villages or a hotel? Hey guys baby steps.
John
http://ghlin2.greenhills.net/~apatter/wankel.html
 
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Tom F.

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Jan 1, 2002
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This is the same problem with implementing any sane policy on rural electricfication. Honest, well meaning people don't do well in the local business, development environment. Tom F.
 
Hi Keith, I am Christian Corcino, dominican and suporter of Eduardo Estrella.
First of all I want to clarify that, to the best of my knowlege, Eduardo has not given full support to this proyect. I read the article when it first was release in the listin diario, I re read it now, And All I can read is that he expreses concern in it. To the best of my knowledge, he met with the company. With this I am not saying that the proyect is good or bad, rather that is being studied and taken into consideration. I clarify this because from reading this post I've got the impression that the proyect is being presented as something that has his support.

About the company that is proposing this proyect, they have a website. www.neg.com. I went there to find more info about them, unfortunately I did not find much. I am putting this because you said that you search the web and did not find anything, I hope this might help.

About your opinions, I find them to be very interesting and actually have some questions about it. I have to confess I am not nearly an expert on the topic, I am just interested. I thought the project is very worth looking into it.

I would like to know if you have link to description on how this type of project works. I just want to understand what is involved, the pro and cons, cost and benefits.

I would like to know if you have link to information about successful and unsuccessful implementations of a project like this. I just want to read more.

Thanks Keith,

Christian Corcino
 

Dolores1

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a.m.a.

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History of Biomass energy in DR?

I'm looking for information about what has gone on/is going on in this country with strictly biomass energy (not municipal garbage.) Keith, I have been quite impressed with your obvious knowledge of waste and waste disposal and am hoping you can steer me in the right direction.

I've heard that the sugar mills do some cogeneration, but that it's pretty ineffecient as it stands.

Has any one seen any other cases or have any more information?

Much obliged,
AMA
 

jsizemore

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Aug 6, 2003
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Biogas

I am far from an expert on BIOgas. My knowlege is playing around and reading but from what I have found in the western hemisphere there is limited or no real biogas production. However in India, Cambodia and China it is in full operation on the small farm to large village scale. http://www.ees.adelaide.edu.au/pharris/biogas/beginners.html
Start at this websight and build from there. I feel that it will take a few people having lights on at their house making the neibors jelious before it takes on acceptance in the DR on alarge scale.
John
 

RPM

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Mar 12, 2004
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Waste to Energy

undefined
Keith R said:
You can dress this type of waste disposal up as "energy recovery," but it really is just another form of incineration. As I have posted here in the past, I think there are a number of reservations one should have about advocating an incineration project in the DR. Check out this thread:
http://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=107271
between the tables I posted I discussed why incineration has not proven a good option for Latin America in general and would probably not be one for the DR in particular.
Best Regards,
Keith

Autor del libro "Solid Wastes and Recycling in Latin America & the Caribbean: Trends & Policies"

Check out www.startech.net, plasma incineration technology produces energy and usable byproduct. Enviromentally friendly too! (so they say)

Regards,

RPM
 

Keith R

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RPM said:
undefined

Check out www.startech.net, plasma incineration technology produces energy and usable byproduct. Enviromentally friendly too! (so they say)

Regards,

RPM
You mean Startech, the same company de-listed from Nasdaq last year, had a complete change in the board of directors and near-complete change in management in 2003, and has trouble making money?

Startech has an interesting "plasma converter" technology and probably means well, but there are reasons why its tech has been used only in developed nations (Japan, Italy, US) and almost entirely for taking care of hazardous wastes such as PCBs, chemical weapons, and now automobile and electronics wastes. Among other reasons, the start-up costs of a plant capable of handling a municipal waste stream is enormous. Second, the process' operating costs are more per ton of garbage (about US$70/ton) than recycling or even incineration and certainly far more than landfilling. Another is that the process tends to consume almost as much energy as it produces in combustible gases -- this is not exactly an ideal trash management "solution" for a country with a chronic energy problem such as the DR. Also, there's that small issue of the "useble byproduct" -- the gases that the process produces. Much of it is hydrogen -- for which there is little market in the DR, and one has to wonder at the market potential for it there for many years to come.

RPM, I note that you are a first-time poster, registered the same day you posted, and that you have not posted on other subjects. Maybe I am being unduly suspicious, but would you like to clarify what connection you might have with Startech?

Regards,
Keith
 

Keith R

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RPM said:
undefined

Check out www.startech.net, plasma incineration technology produces energy and usable byproduct. Enviromentally friendly too! (so they say)

Regards,

RPM
BTW, I am hereby announcing that future posts within the Environment Forum that link and plug a particular firm and its technology simply will be deleted, unless the poster has personal knowledge of/experience with said company/technology and discloses his/her link in the post. Even then, it might still be deleted, at owner or moderator's decision.

I will not allow this Forum to become a spam target.

Your Enviroinment Forum Moderator :glasses:
 
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Keith R

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a.m.a. said:
I'm looking for information about what has gone on/is going on in this country with strictly biomass energy (not municipal garbage.) Keith, I have been quite impressed with your obvious knowledge of waste and waste disposal and am hoping you can steer me in the right direction.

I've heard that the sugar mills do some cogeneration, but that it's pretty ineffecient as it stands.

Has any one seen any other cases or have any more information?

Much obliged,
AMA
Thanks for the kind remarks, but I'm afraid I can't help you much, AMA. Biomass conversion is not my strong suit generally, and my knowledge of what is happening in this field in the DR even more meager.

As I understand it, there is some cogeneration undertaken by Dominican sugar mills during crushing season, but traditionally it has not been done very efficiently. However, after a FAO conference on the subject held in Santo Domingo in Oct. 1999, the head of the Instituto Azucacero Dominicano (Inazucar) pledged to get the mills more into cogeneration by investing in more efficient tech. Article 112 of the General Law on Electricity requires distributors to give preference to buying power produced from renewable sources such as biomass when its price considerations are equal to those of electricity generated using hydrocarbons. President Mejia has tried to pave the way for more cogeneration from sugar mills with a 2002 decree [http://www.inazucar.gov.do/decsem2.htm]. If you want to find out what the DR's mills are actually doing in this area currently , my first suggestion would be to contact Inazucar directly:

Inazucar
Jim?nez Moya, Frente a la Rotonda del Mirador Sur
Santo Domingo
Tel: 809-532-5571
Fax: 809-533-2402
inst.azucar2@codetel.net.do
www.inazucar.gov.do

I hear that several sugar producing countries are toying with this idea, including in Latin America & the Caribbean the countries of Belize, Brazil, Costa Rica, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Guyana, Hondruas, Jamaica and Nicaragua, some may do so with help from funding sources such as the Global Environment Facility or the IFC.

I've included some miscellanrous links here, most not dealing with the DR directly. I cannot vouch for any of them, since I have not had yet a chance to check them in depth. Hope this helps get you started in your inquiry.
Regards,
Keith

http://www.inazucar.gov.do/discurso_dictado_en_miami.htm
http://www.inazucar.gov.do/ponen_del_director.htm
http://sucrose.com/biotherm/geplacea.html
http://www.fao.org/sd/spdirect/EGre0034.htm
http://www.tierramerica.net/2001/0603/articulo.shtml
http://www.carilec.com/news_member_bel_bsi.htm
http://www.iee.usp.br/biblioteca/producao/2000/Suani2000-conference.PDF
http://www.gefweb.org/Outreach/outr...ct_factsheet/Brazil-biom-3-cc-undp-eng-ld.pdf
 

RPM

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Mar 12, 2004
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Waste to Energy

No connection whatsoever. I saw an article about the technology and thought is was interesting. This was about the same time I read the posts about waste to energy on dr1. This technology may show some promise in the future. And yes I am a first time poster. Thanks for the reply, RPM

Keith R said:
You mean Startech, the same company de-listed from Nasdaq last year, had a complete change in the board of directors and near-complete change in management in 2003, and has trouble making money?

Startech has an interesting "plasma converter" technology and probably means well, but there are reasons why its tech has been used only in developed nations (Japan, Italy, US) and almost entirely for taking care of hazardous wastes such as PCBs, chemical weapons, and now automobile and electronics wastes. Among other reasons, the start-up costs of a plant capable of handling a municipal waste stream is enormous. Second, the process' operating costs are more per ton of garbage (about US$70/ton) than recycling or even incineration and certainly far more than landfilling. Another is that the process tends to consume almost as much energy as it produces in combustible gases -- this is not exactly an ideal trash management "solution" for a country with a chronic energy problem such as the DR. Also, there's that small issue of the "useble byproduct" -- the gases that the process produces. Much of it is hydrogen -- for which there is little market in the DR, and one has to wonder at the market potential for it there for many years to come.

RPM, I note that you are a first-time poster, registered the same day you posted, and that you have not posted on other subjects. Maybe I am being unduly suspicious, but would you like to clarify what connection you might have with Startech?

Regards,
Keith
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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WTE in DR I don't think so...

Waste to energy sounds like a sexy, idealistic solution if done properly through more renewable energy means such as the capture of energy through biomass w/ end users within proximity to benefit from its use. However, the problem with most WTE projects is that, if done through incineration (as Keith R said), it does not work. This is because of the waste management distribution in DR (very likely to be high in organics with a high moisture content) will consume too much fuel. The capital cost of investment AND the high operational cost are too much for any private sector company to bear especially in light of corruption, low capacity, and poor payment history of municipal government. Even with landfilling a critical waste mass is needed with close end user proximity that offers reliable quality energy for it to be effective, but the energy returns after operational cost are still questionable.

There are other more cost effective options for DR that result in more sustainable management of solid waste. I've been studying many of these projects from all around the world and sadly it is the same story every where. There are near zero success stories among the developing countries.

aaemet said:
It looks like people are actually reading these boards.
I posted a while ago about taking all that garbage and converting it into energy. A company came to do it, but seemed to have given up. Well look at the Eduardo Estrella trip to New York. Looks like he's trying to reopen it! Wow! We can kill two birds with one stone! :cool: ;)

here's the link,,,,,,
http://www.listindiario.com.do/antes/noviembre03/231103/cuerpos/republica/rep2.htm
 

jsizemore

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Aug 6, 2003
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Wte

I personally feel that small scale village or farm sized BIOGAS setup would work just fine. I agree that almost anything else would not work because of too many hands in the pot and so forth.
Also on the same turn I found some interesting products for recycling plastics. The start up cost would be around $200,000 US for about the cheapest I found and then the finding a market for the product would still be a problem.
BAsically it would require bucks and commitment by the population to make anything work.
John.
 

Keith R

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Would be Interesting to See It Tried in the DR....

It would be interesting to see a project such as the one discussed in this article from Folha de Sao Paulo (15 July 2004 issue) be tried in the DR. For those of you who don't read Portuguese or can't stumble through with your Spanish, the article discusses how the Canadians have donated (yes, donated! not lent) US$2.4 million to the City of Salvador, Bahia (Brazil), to recover methane gas from their landfill (which is a polite name for it, believe me!) to power a small generating plant that would power nearby recreation centers, plazas, etc. -- for some 20 years, they think. The benefit from the Canadians is to get "carbon credits" under the Kyoto Protocol. How can we get the Canadians to help the DR in this fashion? And more importantly, how do we keep local politicians from stealing the money and undermining the project? Food for thought....

Best Regards,
Keith

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Salvador transforma g?s metano de lix?o em energia el?trica


(Luiz Francisco)

Uma ?rea de 260 hectares na periferia de Salvador (BA) que durante quase 20 anos foi o s?mbolo da mis?ria e da desigualdade social --1.200 pessoas sobreviviam diariamente do lixo retirado das ruas da capital baiana-- agora serve como modelo de uma iniciativa de reciclagem e defesa ambiental.

Na pr?xima segunda-feira, o prefeito Antonio Imbassahy (PFL) inaugura um parque que ter? todas as suas instala??es e equipamentos (escolas, oficinas de capoeira, dan?a, jardinagem, campo de futebol, parques e pra?as) abastecidos com energia el?trica retirada do g?s (metano) do antigo lix?o de Salvador.

"Os estudos revelam que o g?s acumulado no antigo lix?o ? suficiente para garantir a energia pelos pr?ximos 20 anos", disse o presidente da Limpurb (Empresa de Limpeza Urbana de Salvador), Jalon Oliveira. Antes de as obras serem iniciadas, as 2.300 toneladas de lixo recolhidas diariamente na cidade eram depositadas no local.

A retirada de energia do antigo aterro sanit?rio ? resultado de um acordo de coopera??o t?cnica entre a prefeitura e o governo do Canad?, que doou US$ 2,4 milh?es para financiar o projeto, incluindo a usina geradora.

"Com a obra, o governo canadense pode abater os cr?ditos de carbono e prestar contas aos pa?ses que assinaram o Protocolo de Kioto", disse Oliveira.

Pelo protocolo, os pa?ses industrializados (com exce??o dos Estados Unidos, que se recusam a assinar o acordo) devem reduzir e controlar em 5% (n?veis registrados em 1990) as emiss?es de gases que causam o efeito estufa.

De acordo com o protocolo, investimentos realizados para melhorar a qualidade de vida em outros pa?ses s?o considerados cr?ditos que podem ser abatidos durante a presta??o de contas. "? exatamente o que o governo canadense fez em Salvador", disse Jalon Oliveira.

Inicialmente, a usina instalada no antigo lix?o vai produzir 75 kWh, o suficiente para abastecer cerca de mil resid?ncias com consumo m?dio em torno de cem watts. "Mas o potencial de gera??o de energia da usina em plena carga garante o abastecimento de uma cidade de 50 mil habitantes", acrescentou o presidente da Limpurb.

Depois que as obras foram iniciadas, os 900 adultos que viviam como "catadores de lixo" no local foram contratados por empresas terceirizadas que realizam a limpeza urbana em Salvador.

As crian?as voltaram para a escola e suas fam?lias passaram a ganhar uma cesta b?sica por m?s. "Devolvemos a auto-estima ? popula??o e agora vamos oferecer mais emprego, em uma unidade de produ??o de adubos org?nicos", disse Jalon Oliveira.
 

evladi7654

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Aug 2, 2004
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Plazma technology

Keith R said:
You can dress this type of waste disposal up as "energy recovery," but it really is just another form of incineration. As I have posted here in the past, I think there are a number of reservations one should have about advocating an incineration project in the DR. Check out this thread:
http://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=107271
between the tables I posted I discussed why incineration has not proven a good option for Latin America in general and would probably not be one for the DR in particular.
Best Regards,
Keith

Autor del libro "Solid Wastes and Recycling in Latin America & the Caribbean: Trends & Policies"
We can build a Plazma Waste converter Plant which is the best and the most effective technology in the world. It has practically waste IN and no waste out . It converts (not incinirates ) waste into Energy and other products for sale on the market , It is here ! Just take it ! Tell your goverment about it and let me know. I can start right away... Why are you just asking questions? The problem is with the Waste !! It should be taken care of and converting it into electricity kills two birds ! Do you want your children grow in this waste -garbage -trash invironment.? Think about the future.
 
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gmiller261

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Sounds perfect , but

Excuse me if I sound skeptical, but where can I read about this ?plasma? converter?

Gary
 

Mirador

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Walking distance from my property in the foothills north of Azua, there are several ponds fed from underground streams filled with mixture of water and hydrocarbons. The surface of the ponds looks as if boiling, from the continuous surfacing of natural gas. This place han been prospected since my great grandfather held the first oil exploration concession in the 1890s. Afterwards, during Trujillo, a well was drilled, with no commercial value (low volume, high surphur and salt water content), and even recently, there's been further explorations there and nearby sites, with negative results. Now, my idea is that maybe a contraption, a bell of some sort, can be placed on top of the pools to trap the natural gas, enough to concentrate it to flamability, and from then on use to drive some equipment, maybe enough to power my lights and electric fan in my hut. This just occured to me, and hope I could get someone interested in it...

Mirador
 

gmiller261

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What size is the pond(s)?

It would actually be straight-forward and possible, depending on the size.

Does the water in the pond feel warm/hot?

You say you are in the foot hills of Azua, how high up do you think?

Gary
 

Keith R

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Jan 1, 2002
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evladi7654 said:
We can build a Plazma Waste converter Plant which is the best and the most effective technology in the world. It has practically waste IN and no waste out . It converts (not incinirates ) waste into Energy and other products for sale on the market , It is here ! Just take it ! Tell your goverment about it and let me know. I can start right away... Why are you just asking questions? The problem is with the Waste !! It should be taken care of and converting it into electricity kills two birds ! Do you want your children grow in this waste -garbage -trash invironment.? Think about the future.
evladi7654,
You clearly have not bothered to read through this entire thread. And you don't seem to know who you're dealing with.

Why am I "just asking questions"? I am asking valid questions precisely because all too often in the DR money is plunked down for "wonder projects" without asking any questions whatosever, scarce Dominican funds disappear and the people don't get what they were promised. People who ask why thoughtful waste experts like me ask questions usually say so because they are uncomfortable having to answer questions about the supposed "solution."

If I could get a dollar for every time that I have heard this plasma tech pitch in Latin America & the Caribbean (LAC), I would be rich now. Yet there is not a single working, self-sustaining project of this sort anywhere in the region. And as far as I can tell, there is no full-scale, economical, unsubsidized version of it anywhere else in the world, for that matter, although perhaps you can enlighten us with concrete examples to the contrary.

It seems too much to me like all the fad diets that tell you that you can loose dozens of pounds quickly without having to exercise or change your eating habits. How many of those actually work?

Even if the plasma tech is proven to work precisely as claimed, and even if it has been made to work on a self-sustaining (unsubsidized) basis in Japan or Switzerland or Sweden or Germany, my essential doubts (which you would know full well if you had read the thread thoroughly) remain: can it be made to work economically in the Dominican social/economic/political context? And wouldn't the cost be such that the DR might be better off trying to promote basic changes in the wasting behavior of Dominicans and creating a true 3R system on the island?

Regards,
The Environment Forum Moderator :glasses: