Water Cooled Computers

Lambada

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mike l

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Why Would You Want Or Need One.

I am not a Computer Geek but I remember the difference between air cooled engines vs. the need for radiator etc.

What would happen if there were a power surge and water meets electricity.

Just Curious as this makes no sense to me.
 
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Fishguy

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I honestly don't think there'd be a market for the stuff here. The 2 biggest reasons to use watercooling are a) sound reduction, and b)heat reduction when overclocking.

As far as sound reduction, do you really think anyone in THIS country is offended by noise? :cheeky:

Most of the computer stuff I see for sale here is not exactly upper end stuff and I wouldn't want to risk overclocking it.

What I have thought about is how I could incorporate an Eheim pump into my 5 gallon water bottle. Now that would be a convenience I think might sell. Problem is the relative cost of a decent (ie, Eheim) pump.

 
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Rocky

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Reality check (long and geeky)

Liquid cooling is used to keep components from frying up, when overclocking CPUs, ram and video cards.
It appears that almost all overclockers are gamers, trying to squeeze that extra little bit out of their PCs.
Overclockers need a certain amount of intelligence to do the job, yet have to be dumb enough to not understand economics.
Mobos (motherboards) that allow for serious overclocking are pricier than regular boards and if you add in the cost of liquid cooling, the additional money spent to get the desired results is greater than the cost of buying a higher performance CPU.
There could be exceptions to that rule, like in the case of anyone using the world's most powerful processor and not being able to purchase any better and also in the case of those gamers who strap two video cards together and overclock them to the max, for gaming purposes.
Those "freaks" who do take their gaming that seriously and don't mind spending thousands of dollars on a puter, are but a minuscule percentile of the PC market, so it is a tiny niche market that barely exists in the DR.
One of the articles in the links, states that overclocking is free, yet it is clear that they have to use expensive motherboards and invest in pricey cooling systems.

Case in point.
I just finished building a PC with an Intel Q8200 CPU, on an inexpensive AS Rock mobo, with 4 gigs of OCZ ram bought on special (40 bux) and an EVGA Nvidia Gforce 8500 GT graphics card.
Case, power supply, DVD burner, wifi card, Sound Blaster audio card and a 10,000 rpm Western Digital Velociraptor, along with the above mentioned guts, the total cost was $725 US.
The Passmark Benchmark score of the Q8200 out of the box is over 3,000.
In order to overclock a 2000 scoring dual core to that performance, the board alone would cost $200+ US more, the ideal ram would cost $100+ US more, and an adequate cooling system would cost yet another $160+ US and the total of that extra expenditure is already greater than the total I spent for the Mobo with Q8200 and 4 gigs of ram ($280 US).
Include an extra $200 US for the base price of the dual core and ram and you are looking at an expense of $660 US to get the same performance I got for $280.
Where is the sense of that?

Extreme overclockers are a strange breed of geeks who do it with pride and could be classified obsessed.
I am not overlooking the fact that top of the line graphics cards are made to be overclocked and one can argue that it is free, but that is just semantics, as the manufacturing companies are playing the marketing game with the suckers who buy them by understating the specs of the card, then go on to giving you overclocking software along with instructions on how to do so.
If the "sport" of overclocking is what thrills you in life, then giddy up.
If getting the maximum performance for the dollar is your game, extreme overclocking is somewhere between idiotic and ridiculous.

PS: I will try to follow up this post with real life examples in layman's terms, maybe with pix.
PPS: Anyone wanting me to build them an inexpensive super puter, I do it for free. It's my hobby and I love doing it.
 
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Rocky

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Real life examples.

Puter #1 (no overclocking) Q8200 benchmark = 3,129. Price $285 US.

Purchase

PortaTech.com - Barebones with Intel CPU
Cheapest mobo, fan & ram.



OCZ SLI-Ready Dual Channel 4096MB PC6400 DDR2 800MHz Memory (2x2048MB) OCZ2N800SR4GK at TigerDirect.com



Benchmark

PassMark CPU List




--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Puter #2 (to be overclocked) E8400 benchmark = 2,018.
Overclocked to 2,684 aspiring for 2,884. Price $517 US.

Purchase

PortaTech.com - Barebones with Intel CPU
Better mobo for overclocking, bigger fan and faster ram.




Benchmark





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

According to this article,
Motherboard and RAM for Overclocking E8400 to 4 GHz
the E8400 could be overclocked from 3 GHz to 4 GHz, an increase of 33%, taking the CPU benchmark score to 2,684 and to be generous, we will allow for another 200 points for general performance increase because of the high speed ram, making a grand total of 2,884, still falling short of the 3,000+ scored by the Q8200 in the 1st example, with the cheap mobo and ram.

$285 US is more appealing to spend than $517 and the above scenarios do not even take into account any liquid cooling which would bring the cost up around $700 US for puter #2.

Conclusion

Puter #1 outperforms # 2 at half* the price. (* = approx.)
Like I said... Purchasing a system for extreme overclocking is somewhere between idiotic and ridiculous.

PS: Quad cores can have advantages and/or disadvantages when compared to a dual core, depending on the nature of the program being used, so it is possible that an individual piece of software (a game) could be slightly faster with the lower scoring dual core, but it would be minimal and not even come close to justifying double the price. Of course, the reverse could occur, where the quad beats the pants off of the dual.
 

Rocky

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Lambada; please.read comment on you TUBE BY


YouTube - Water Cooled Computer





.................................................................................................
That's a lot of reading, Vince.
There are 78 comments on that clip.
Could you copy the comment here instead of us having to search?
BTW: One of the comments mentions,
i used 400$ to my water cooler with a good pomp,
That says it all.
 

Rocky

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Barebone PCs

Builds that make sense.

A barebones build (case, power supply, DVD burner, motherboard, CPU, fan, ram & decent 7,200 rpm hard drive) with an Intel E2200 (benchmarks @ 1,200) would cost only $265 US.

The same with a Q8200 (benchmarks @ 3,000+) with a 10,000 rpm Velociraptor hard drive would cost $565 US.





The 1st benchmark shows the performance difference between the E2200 CPU and the Q8200.
The 2nd shows the difference between a 7,200 rpm SATA hard drive and a 10,000 rpm Velociraptor.
Both tests show the better system more than doubling the power at approx. double the price.
This makes sense.
Paying double the price or more to overclock and gain 50% performance (if you're lucky) does not make sense.
 

Rocky

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Good balance

The following screenshot is the Windows Index Score for my quad core PC.



The maximum score possible is 5.9.
As the results show, this PC gets the highest possible score for speed and slightly below for graphics.
I am not a gamer and I don't need better graphics, in fact, I don't even require graphics as good as I have, but I happened to come across a great video card for $65 US that normally sells for double, so I bought it. The system shown would cost $630 US. My actual cost is greater, as I also added a Sound Blaster sound card, as well as a wifi card at a grand total of $725 US.

In short, a top of the line high performance PC with normal graphics can be built for $565 US.
When you hear the gamers talking about buying cooling systems at $400 US and paying hundreds of dollars more for overclocking type mobos and ram, only to get less results than the build above, then you have to wonder if their heads are truly attached to their bodies.
 

DOMINCAN JOE

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That's a lot of reading, Vince.
There are 78 comments on that clip.
Could you copy the comment here instead of us having to search?
BTW: One of the comments mentions,

That says it all.
Lambada; please.read comment on you TUBE BY


YouTube - Water Cooled Computer





.................................................................................................
CLICK ON Comment(s) marked as spam

v7nse (2 hours ago)

Lambada; said:
I'd be grateful to hear from computer geeks and wizards
Does any one living in DR have a water cooled computer?
Rocky; said:
: Anyone wanting me to build them an inexpensive super puter, I do it for free. It's my hobby and I love doing it.
Rocky i am on my way Lambada lol
:ermm: Sorry Marco that all it is ;)
 

gmiller261

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First find out if any component is over heating

The technology is sound. It is mostly used for overclockers. But if you run your computer in the DR (summertime) without AC I'd recommend it.

Some Extreme Mobos have water blocks built in. (not actually water, but water and glycol).

This is for the new i7 chip. No more FSB, finally.

Gigabyte GA-EX58-EXTREME Motherboard - Intel X58, LGA 1366, ATX, Audio, PCI Express 2.0, CrossFire Ready, SLI Ready, Dual Gigabit LAN, SPDIF, Firewire, USB 2.0, HyperThreading at TigerDirect.com
 
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Rocky

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Last but not least

I have no first hand experience overclocking with top of the line mobos, for the stated reasons above, however, if the same rules apply to the better boards as with the cheaper ones, it is a fact that instabilities can/will occur.
Overclockers spend long periods of time, seeking the proper balance of CPU frequencies, ram rates & voltages, to maximize the performance of the puter while remaining stable.
As gaming is their priority, perhaps they do not notice that other aspects of the puter might suffer, or maybe they just don't care.
When you have a high line power puter, losing 10% of your power/speed for a given process, let's say to open your picture file, is barely noticeable nor a great inconvenience, given the blistering speed of the PC.
That being said, it has been my experience that when I do fool around with overclocking CPUs, ram & voltages, that hesitations develop with certain random programs.
I built a giant power puter because I wanted speed and massive power for multi tasking or for heavy software. I wouldn't dream of sacrificing any of that speed &/or power for the sake of faster graphics, but then again, I am not a gamer.
So my perspective is slanted towards general performance, not to extreme graphics.
Furthermore, as mentioned above, I have no hands on experience with the top of the line overclocking motherboards, so what I say here is but an opinion, as it is possible that those pricey mobos do allow for total stability and no speed/power losses with other software, when clocking it to the max, although I doubt it.

Some PCs have software for overclocking the CPU & ram and controlling voltages, with the operating system functioning, rather than having to reboot and set it in the bios.
High end graphics cards all allow for this as well, so a gamer could have some preset configurations for gaming, and go back to the default settings for general use.
In cases like that, it makes good sense, as one is not likely to be checking one's emails while involved playing a big game.
The only part that does not make sense, is the expense they go to to overclock inferior products, rather than simply buying better in the first place and spending less money.
Maybe the results vs price are of no importance to them.
Perhaps the art of overclocking is what gives them thrills.

If you are a logical person who likes to use powerful computers without all the waiting and you would prefer to spend less, rather than more, then liquid cooling will have no place in your computer.
 

Rocky

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The technology is sound. It is mostly used for overclockers. But if you run your computer in the DR (summertime) without AC I'd recommend it.
The DR warm weather can certainly affect the durability of a PC, although one could easily compensate with regular fans, except in the case of extreme gamers.
The downside is the fan noise, but otherwise, it is simpler and a lot cheaper.

Some Extreme Mobos have water blocks built in. (not actually water, but water and glycol).
This is for the new i7 chip. No more FSB, finally.
Gigabyte GA-EX58-EXTREME Motherboard - Intel X58, LGA 1366, ATX, Audio, PCI Express 2.0, CrossFire Ready, SLI Ready, Dual Gigabit LAN, SPDIF, Firewire, USB 2.0, HyperThreading at TigerDirect.com
Technology is advancing at an incredible rate and it may be sooner than later, that products such as the one in the link, will be affordable.
In the meantime, the reviews say it all.
 

bienamor

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You are acting as if this is new

In the main frame world water cooled and freon cooled have been around for years. that way they can keep your series E servers. (read 3090) cool.
 
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krwilson

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I have used water cooling, not here, but when living in Canada. I was excited about the prospects of it at first for overclocking and just general daily use at a lower ambient operating temperature. It did allow a lower operating operating temperature but I found it did need a weekly top up of the rad fluid (so to speak) or the alarm would alert me. Though never requiring much fluid I decided it was just too much a pain in the ass for me, and I am an avid computer user! I went back to a more passive, yet effective solution, of using an oversize heatsink unit for cooling such as a ZalmanCNP9700, the fan is quiet and even if the fan fails the CPU is safe due to the large cooling capacity. keep it simple. The oversize heatsink provides a close second to the lower ambient temperature of water cooling at a lower cost too.

I also would recommend using Intel dual core CPUs in the DR. In all the years past I was an avid AMD person, but the newer Intel chips are fast and run at a lower average temperature, thus a cooler laptop for example. The AMDs are hot!
 
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FernieBee

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I don't know how old this article is, but here are some paragraphs from it.

==

What is Liquid Cooling?
Liquid cooling is essentially a radiator for the CPU inside of the computer. Just like a radiator for a car, a liquid cooling system circulates a liquid through a heat sink attached to the processor inside of the computer. As the liquid passes through the heat sink, heat is transferred from the hot processor to the cooler liquid. The hot liquid then moves out to a radiator at the back of the case and transfers the heat to the ambient air outside of the case. The cooled liquid then travels back through the system to the CPU to continue the process.


What advantage does this bring to cooling a system?
Liquid cooling is a much more efficient system at drawing heat away from the processor and outside of the system. This allows for higher clock speeds in the processor as the ambient temperatures of the CPU core are still within the manufacturer's specifications. This is the prime reason why extreme overclockers tend to favor the use of liquid cooling solutions for their processors. Some people have been able to almost double the processor speed by using very complex liquid cooling solutions.

What disadvantages are there to using a liquid cooling system?
Unfortunately there are a large number of disadvantages to liquid cooling in computer systems these days. Some of the most prominent disadvantages are size and technical skills required to install a kit.

Liquid cooling kits require a large amount of space within the computer case to work effectively. In order for the system to work properly, there must be space for items such as the impeller, the fluid reservoir, the tubing, fan and power supplies. This has a tendency to require larger desktop system cases to fit all of these parts within the computer case itself. It is possible to have much of the system outside of the case, but then it would take up space in or around the desktop.

So is liquid cooling worth the trouble?
At this stage of the market, liquid cooling is still only really effective for those people who are interested in over clocking their computers well beyond what air cooling will allow. Due to the size and difficulty of the installations for liquid cooling, it is not advised for general system use. There are many effective heat pipe designs being developed now that will cool off the current CPUs on the market without the noise from a large number of high speed fans.

If CPU speeds continue to increase and no new thermal breakthroughs are discovered in regards to CPU construction, I believe that liquid cooling will begin to become more common in standard system construction. This is going to be particularly true if PC systems are going to be integrated into consumer electronics such as home theater. People are sensitive to noise when watching movies or listening to music, so any system integrated into this environment must be able to run as quietly as possible.


link
 
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Lambada

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Rocky! You came out of retirement to answer my question :) and with such detail . I'm honoured, thank you & thank you everyone else who contributed constructively. I shall now retire to a darkened room to inwardly digest.

No btw I'm not a gamer although I did have some moments in my youth.......:cheeky:
 

Drro

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Marco

Now that you are posting again,a quick question. Do you still have any laptops or did you sell them all? I have one that came in yesterday and two more are coming today.

Thanks
Ro
 

Rocky

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Dear Tequila Rose

Marco

Now that you are posting again,a quick question. Do you still have any laptops or did you sell them all? I have one that came in yesterday and two more are coming today.

Thanks
Ro
This was just a cameo appearance.
I'm still retarded.

I'm all out of laptops now.
If you hear of anyone coming down who wouldn't mind bringing me one of the ones you have for me, I'll buy them a plate of ribs.
BTW: That last HP you sent me was incredible.
It was the nicest laptop I have ever touched and the price was fantastic.
It didn't even last 2 days here.
I showed it to my doctor and he bought it on the spot.
Thanks Ro.
 

Drro

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Marco - glad you enjoyed it (while it lasted). If anyone is coming down from the NY/CT area before March 24th please PM me if you can help out.
 
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