What in the world is going on?

[Duarte]

Re: Durante

I read it on the internet version of the DR newspapers.
www.ultimahora.com.do, www.elnacional.com.do, www.listin.com.do, www.elsiglord.com, www.hoy.com.do

 

[Duarte]

I think most people here missed my point.

The question I was asking was why has Dominican society become so much more violent than it used to be, let's say 10 years ago. And don't tell me that it isn't. I remember that I used to walk alone at any time at night anywhere overthere, and never felt in danger. Now, I don't feel that I can do that anymore. Used to be able to give rides in my car to hitchhikers w/o any worries, now I don't feel that I can do that with just anyone. Is it just paranoia? I really don't know, but it does seem that gun proliferation has a certain correlation. I remember that only a few people used to own them in my hometown, now almost everybody has one, and since there's no law to regulate this, or at least it is not upheld, it's like the wild west. I feel almost compelled to have to buy one myself.
I know there are probably a whole lot of other reasons for why this is happening.
I have to say that even with the increase in crime I would still move back to the Dr in a hertbeat if I had the money or found the right opportunity.

 

[DR Bound]

Come visit NY

ITS SAD YES!!!! BUT IT GOES ON EVERYWHERE! COME TO NY AND VISIT SOMETIME. You can spend days reading this type of stuff in the paper!

adios

 

[Henry]

Re: No different from the rest of the world )

Well Graham, we had lots of thinking on treating the locals on this board! I think, you got a little to rough now with Andy! I do not know all of the DR, but I heard lots from Baharona because I know some people down there and stayed there also various times! Do you know that a foreigner may have no legal protection in Baharona! It depends on how the other is allied to the justice or some people close to it and then try to make your move!! The hole politic down there is a strong family business it is hard to get against that! I have seen foreigners crying to what they have been done by dominicans oficials!
So please unless you know the case, try to be polite!

Thanks

Henry

 

[Andy]

Re: No different from the rest of the world )

Grahme,

First, I am not an angry young man, I'm 57 years old, lived here 5 years (my Canadian wife 15years- one of the early foreigners on the peninsula, and almost the first in Las Galeras). And my people skills? Check out our hotel reviews and ask our guests' opinions. You'll find them in the DR1 database, on Debbie's page and on our regular website, www.elmarinique.com. I think you'll find different. If you bother to check around here or on the boards/forums that I post on you'll find I tell it like it is. I don't whitewash anything. If you care, go into the files and look up my problems with my boat and the DR navy, the problems we've had being sued by lying employees, the current problems we've have defending our property rights, etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. Living in Paradise is not all it's cracked up to be.

And no, we DO NOT mistreat our employees. In fact, we are one of the highest paying employers in the area and give our employees lots of extra help when we can: clothes, cash bonuses, food, etc. We too believe in the Golden Rule, and not just preach it.

Every time we have attempted to go into a partnership with a Dominican we get screwed. Whether it's renting our second restaurant, raising pigs or fishing my charter boat; the results have been the same. And these are people that we know and trusted. It's just in their nature to take advantage whenever they can,...that's what growing up in a poverty stricken, 3rd world country generates: a get-ahead, no matter what the cost, attitude. A lot of Dominicans will verify this.

A LOT of crime against foreigners is hushed up by the government. They don't want a bad image to be projected to the rest of the world. Several years ago, a German couple was killed in their home not 4 miles from here. I won't go into the details, rape for several days, dismemberment and finally death. You NEVER heard a word about this. It was finally leaked in Germany when the authorities were pressured into doing something. This is just one example and I know of others. You're living in a dream world if you don't think this happens here as it does in the REST OF THE WORLD, which was really the point of my last post.

 

[John]

Andy You Are So Right..Thank You.......

There are many blindless fools that think this way that the DR is such a paradise. The DR is a paradise full of crime, and the availabilty of handguns are more avaible that jobs. They will stumble upon the truth when it's too late !

 

[John]

Re: Come visit NY

The difference is that there is no justice in the DR..the police will not protect the tourist..you are at the will of the many takers in the DR..NY is a bit different my friend...Stop being such an ignorant fool....

 

[Henry]

DR - USA?

Well, I do not like much comparations, but it is beeing towed up quite so often, now what about the following points;

- I never heard of real estate fraud in the US, in the DR I heard
more than enough cases with foreigners and dominicans beeing
sold properties with false title etc. etc.

- In the year 1998 or 99 the US deported according to the news-
papers 8000 (eightthousand) dominican criminals to the DR!
EVER heard of a close number from another country???

I believe it could go on and on, but I just want the people, who come here to visit and live, to have their eyes open, so if you get ripped of or frauded, it will be small amount of money!

Still have a good time!

Henry

 

[Sarah]

Re: No different from the rest of the world )

I wish you could be more clear Henry. I lived in Barahona for a year. I have land and a home there. And I have NO IDEA what you are talking about. I've never even seen the rest of the country! I personally can't wait to get back there (Barahona specifically). Do elaborate, please.

 

[Sarah]

Re: No different from the rest of the world )

The survival instinct/human nature that you refer to is just that - human not Dominican. It's unbelievable to me that at your age you have not learned this basic concept yet. I have little hope for you, but bring this to light for the benefit of others who may think after reading your post that it is appropriate to degrade entire groups of humans by making statements such as "It's just in their nature to take advantage whenever they can,...". Sounds like you need a serious break.

 

[Larry]

Re: No different from the rest of the world )

Until you've experienced what Andy has you are not in a position to pass judgement or offer "hope". Many of us regular readers remember all too well what Andy went through. I believe he's earned the right to his opinion and feelings. And unlike most posters who go down there for a couple of weeks vaction here and there and think it's "perfect", he actually lives and works there. His perspective comes from fact not some fantasy vacation.

 

[CES]

Re: A little Story for . . .

Andy & Grahame, . . . a true story that addresses Dominicanisumness {{{dubya' gave me that... and it's not just "caball?". I'll start by quoting from Andy's and Grahame's previous posts:

>>> "It's just in their nature to take advantage whenever they can,...that's what growing up in a poverty stricken, 3rd world country generates: a get-ahead, no matter what the cost, attitude. A lot of Dominicans will verify this." <<<

and

>>> "IF you treat people right (i.e. as equals & not as lesser mortals) show them the respect they deserve, open up to them as they would to you, you will have no problems here." <<<

~~~ This happened many many years ago during the time of "the troubles" (el Jefe'), a young Dominican lade found himself on the mean streets of New York (for good reason) earning his very first 'jankee' dollars as a "?washaow! boy". In part his job entailed pushing a large heavily loaded, at times, clothing rack around the garment district, - watch out, WATCH OUT! - were some of the first english words that he had learned to use in public. He eventually earned enough money to return to the DR (after the "troubles" had ended) and start his own business. OK, to make a long story short, certain fellow Dominicans ended up owning the new venture outright and he, the young "?washaow! boy", was back on the street once again, so to speak. In time he recovered and started another business this time with out the benefit of a "partnership arrangement". Further tragedy ensued, but that's another story entirely . . .

Moral? ? ? Maybe, maybe not. . . I truly believe in my hart that the majority of Dominicans aren't that much different (they are just a tad bit more passionate about every day things and they certainly dance a mean merengue from us when we consider their environment, and who the hell is us? < I know, bad grammar, so sue me, lol) La Rep?blica Dominicana is still a foreign country to and for every jack one of "us" that can't say with home grown pride, "yo soy un Dominicano". . .

con ?Abrazos! por Andy y Grahame,

. . . Charlie

 

[Jim Hinsch]

Re: No different from the rest of the world )

Andy is right on with his observations (except for the part about one having to live there to understand the depth). When I read comments from visitors about how safe they felt (since when is "feeling safe" indicitive of "being safe"), or that it is safer than in the USA, I just chuckle. The blind leading the blind.

Visitors don't need to worry so much about getting violently attacked in the tourist areas, but the risk outside the resorts of getting mugged, pick-pocketed, scammed, or having unattended items stolen is very real. Several of my friends HAVE been mugged, just blocks from their hotel.

I pity the person that gets into it with a local. Things can quickly escalate and sometimes end only when someone is dead or seriously injured. Many Dominicans, have a desperation, ego, temper, and lack of civility that most tourists have never known. Tragic events are often triggered by a single unintentional or misunderstood word or action.

One should remember that most of the people traveling to far off lands have money, at least a basic education, and are a prime cut from the slice of life where they come from, while the typical person they will encounter on the streets, cafes, bars, stores, etc. in the Dominican Republic is not the minority refined, well-educated, and financially secure Dominican.

Anybody interested in the REAL crime situation need only speak to expats that live there. Any local could tell the same story, but as you are a foreigner, they may be inclined to give a rosy picture.

There's a reason for all those bars on the windows and doors. There's a reason for armed security guards at resort entrances and ATM machines. There's a reason people hire full time watchman for their houses. There's a reason why people won't leave their residences unattended when they are gone. There's a reason people are told not to wear expensive jewelry. I'm sorry, but in the 15 cities I've lived in in the USA, I've never lived in a residence with bars on all the doors and windows, never known anybody to have a full-time security guard for a home, and I've never been worried about wearing an expensive watch or carrying lots of cash when going out for dinner unless I'm venturing into a bad area of the city.

One cannot compare the inner cities of the USA or Europe with the Dominican Republic. Santo Domingo perhaps. In the USA and Europe, the crime rate outside the major cities is so low it is practically non-existent. Crime is much related to what the people have, or have to lose by getting caught. It's a fact of life, that people in the Dominican Republic in general, have less and have less to lose than the general population where the tourists live in their home countries. There are exceptions of course, but desperation breeds crime.

 

[Manny Encarta]

Re: What in the world is going on? Simple answer.

I think that tragedy is a transversy of life. No matter where you go, you will see bad things happening. I won't even talk about Mexico and some other places in So. America or Middle East.

Manny

 

[CES]

RE:No...Comments from "una Cibae?a" & CES

>>> "I.e. there may not be more crime - just more coverage of the crimes that take place. Just a thought to stimulate others!!!! " <<< by Grahame (link, see below)

A comment on Grahame's behalf, Mr. Bush you are truly blessed in having such a high regard or faith in/ for your fellow man, I envy you..

After some discussion with "una Cibae?a" as to an increased crime rate in the DR we have arrived at this sad fact: YES . . . Our day to day world, as a whole, is filled with violent acts against individuals and the public at large and it does not make any sense to say that the DR isn't being impacted by a measurable increase in most all forms of crime. In a nutshell, "una's" view of the increase of crime in the DR: you can't deny that it's not a big problem, to look at the world through rose-colored glasses went out of style with the Nehrue jacket.

My view: get real folks! Pay attention to your surroundings AT ALL TIMES, know exactly who is who and what is what! Letting your guard down for just a one minute can make for a really bad hair day, if you know what I mean . . . Words not meant for general consumption by the hordes filling those 55,000 rooms being so thoughtfully provided by the mega AI consortium that makes it all possible. Some of these outfits will even tell their clientele "please don't wander off by your selves children, as things might be a bit nasty out there."

Now on to Jim's post and a little critic, sort of a "he said, and she said" thing.

>>> "I pity the person that gets into it with a local. Things can quickly escalate and sometimes end only when someone is dead or seriously injured. Many Dominicans, have a desperation, ego, temper, and lack of civility that most tourists have never known. Tragic events are often triggered by a single unintentional or misunderstood word or action." <<<

Well put Jim, if you are involved in some nastiness with a "connected" local your vacation is sort of put on hold while "el CommanDANTE" checks the color of your money.

"una's" view: Don't ask . . . meaning read into it as you please (e-mail me if want

>>> "Anybody interested in the REAL crime situation need only speak to expats that live there. Any local could tell the same story, but as you are a foreigner, they may be inclined to give a rosy picture." <<<

Spot on again, what you read on www.hearsay.com is what ever you want it to be.

"una's view: see above, "don't ask".

>>> "...never known anybody to have a full-time security guard for a home..." <<<

Come on Jim, it's all relevant: hardwired dial-up security systems, motion detectors, electronic fences, razor wire, thousands of dollars for closed circuit surveillance cameras, neighborhood watch organizations with police liaison/ oversight, gated communities, sheared contract privet security services, community policing, and for the folks that have the money (USD $1000. and up/ month/ WEEK) a 7/ 24 security service, high dollar automobile security systems with GPS tracking capability, guard
dogs worth thousands of dollars (we're not talkn' junk yard dogs here, these suckers speak German, don't bark, only eat on command, and get a $1000 tune-up every year, etc. , the fear of god that the home/ business owner is packn' "heat", the millions and millions of $$$ that the Secret Services spends on watching the "familys" while Ginna gets "busted" (I'm bad, I know but I just couldn't resist that one . Ah... did I leave anything out?

>>> "One cannot compare the inner cities of the USA or Europe with the Dominican Republic. Santo Domingo perhaps. In the USA and Europe, the crime rate outside the major cities is so low it is practically non-existent." <<<

We both agree with you on this point.

>>> "Crime is much related to what the people have, or have to lose by getting caught. It's a fact of life, that people in the Dominican Republic in general, have less and have less to lose than the general population where the tourists live in their home countries. There are exceptions of course, but desperation breeds crime." <<<

Desperate times breed . . . ah . . . you know what I'm trying to say. . .

"una's" view: "I thought we had a complete place setting for twelve when we moved here?" . . .

Regards,

. . . CES

 

[Tony C.]

Re: My Opinion

You can't compare the DR with Canada.

How can anyone feel safe in Canada. With its restrictive gun control laws, no law abiding, Canadian can protect themselves.

 

[John]

Re: My Opinion

even though tony i don't support all of the gun control the goverment is TRYING to implement some of it i do support,such as i really don't need a hand gun to go hunting with,i also don't need a fully auto rifle to go hunting with.what i don't support is having a permit to own,buy,or pocess a gun.i also don't support regriestering my guns.i have never though of my guns as a source of protection.the police dept provide that.also i have never ever felt unsafe any where in canada and i have been from coast to coast to coast.

 

[Clara]

Blah, blah, blah

Oh mine mine! Here I go again. Taking cover to protect myself from the punches coming after my comments are read.

>>>> I never heard of real estate fraud in the US, in the DR I heard
more than enough cases with foreigners and Dominicans being
sold properties with false title etc. etc. <<<<<

Henry, how about reading the newspapers once in a while?. You MAY NOT HAVE heard of as many cases of real estate fraud as YOU MAY HAVE read of in the Dominican Rep. But boy, you really are good are other types of fraud, e.g. insurance fraud. I have read about so many cases of insurance fraud in the USA that I am inclined to think you invented the idea. And how about: credit fraud, identity theft, and Internet fraud. And I could go on and on till kingdom come.
>>>> - - In the year 1998 or 99 the US deported according to the news-
papers 8000 (eightthousand) dominican criminals to the DR!
EVER heard of a close number from another country??? <<<< (sic)
Dear Henry, you may not have read of the 8500 Danes deported back to their country BECAUSE since there are hardly any Danish citizens living in the USA chances are not many of them are ever sent back home. That was en example. Of course we could also argue about the honesty of Danes ?I believe they are honest people. But did it occur to you that one of the reasons so many Dominican delinquents are sent back home is because MILLIONS of Dominicans live in the USA?
Well Henry, I cannot deny that crime does exist in my beloved country. I, unlike you, read the papers once in a while, and do know that crime is a common occurrence in the D.R. as well as in MOST OF the world. I have been myself the victim of crime twice in my long life- I am 30. Once a guy tried to snatch my gold chain- it wasn?t worth much money anyways. The guy was apparently not good enough cause he couldn?t take it. As a result I don?t wear jewelry, at least not something that looks worth taking.
On another occasion somebody broke in my apartment and stole my laptop and my passport. I hope that person enjoyed reading my private mail and have gone some happier place with my passport- the USA maybe?. I got a new laptop and a new passport. No harm done to my lovely self.
So Henry, this is what I mean. It happens everywhere. Even is this beautiful country. So, I reckon, you had a point there anyways. May the force be with you.

 

[Clara]

Re: Blah... last message looks scrambled

Oh mine mine! Here I go again. Taking cover to protect myself from the punches coming after my comments are read.

>>>> I never heard of real estate fraud in the US, in the DR I heard
more than enough cases with foreigners and Dominicans being
sold properties with false title etc. etc. <<<<<

Henry, how about reading the newspapers once in a while?. You MAY NOT HAVE heard of as many cases of real estate fraud as YOU MAY HAVE read of in the Dominican Rep. But boy, you -the civilized countries- really are good are other types of fraud, e.g. insurance fraud. I have read about so many cases of insurance fraud in the USA that I am inclined to think you invented the idea. And how about: credit fraud, identity theft, and Internet fraud. And I could go on and on till kingdom come.

>>>> - - In the year 1998 or 99 the US deported according to the news-
papers 8000 (eightthousand) dominican criminals to the DR!
EVER heard of a close number from another country??? <<<< (sic)

Dear Henry, you may not have read of the 8500 Danes deported back to their country BECAUSE since there are hardly any Danish citizens living in the USA chances are not many of them are ever sent back home. That was en example. Of course we could also argue about the honesty of Danes ?I believe they are honest people. But did it occur to you that one of the reasons so many Dominican delinquents are sent back home is because MILLIONS of Dominicans live in the USA?

Well Henry, I cannot deny that crime does exist in my beloved country. I, unlike you, read the papers once in a while, and do know that crime is a common occurrence in the D.R. as well as in MOST OF the world. I have been myself the victim of crime twice in my long life- I am 30. Once a guy tried to snatch my gold chain- it wasn?t worth much money anyways. The guy was apparently not good enough cause he couldn?t take it. As a result I don?t wear jewelry, at least not something that looks worth taking.

On another occasion somebody broke in my apartment and stole my laptop and my passport. I hope that person enjoyed reading my private mail and have gone some happier place with my passport- the USA maybe?. I got a new laptop and a new passport. No harm done to my lovely self.
So Henry, this is what I mean. It happens everywhere. Even is this beautiful country. So, I reckon, you had a point there anyways. May the force be with you.

 

[Tony C.]

Re: My Opinion

John,

There are many people who hunt with handguns. I, myself, can be included in that group.

As for the police protecting me. I hold no illusions, The police cannot and will not protect me. The act of the police actually protecting someone from a crime is so rare it typically makes the evening news.