Why can't the Dominican Republic be the solution to the crisis in Haiti?

CDNBear

Banned
Sep 29, 2020
337
189
43
Cabarete
Border walls are contrary to the globalist agenda of abolishing nation states and creating a new world order.
 

Caonabo

LIFE IS GOOD
Sep 27, 2017
6,307
2,199
113
Please enlighten me. What was or is your point?
Also is it even relevant to the topic "
Why can't the Dominican Republic be the solution to the crisis in Haiti"

There are 11 pages within this thread line regarding the topic.
There are many other thread lines within this sub-forum regarding the same topic.
Seek, and you shall find the way.
To answer your big, bold question........
Because it is not the RD's responsibility.
 

CDNBear

Banned
Sep 29, 2020
337
189
43
Cabarete
From todays news, DR needs to solve own problems with illegal haitians (message to Windy, maybe a Canuk or two as well? ):LOL:

Massive flow of Haitians generates urgent call to Abinader

A number of 161 Dominican personalities, including the highest retired positions of the military and police commands, have asked President Luis Abinader to take urgent measures in the face of the massive transfer of undocumented Haitians to the country, “supported with foreign and local resources. ”.

This problem, they state, “encourages the permanent claim of sectors of the Haitian leadership that our territory belongs to them and that they are simply recovering it, following a strategy of progressive occupation, which has gone from having a peaceful and silent character to an aggressive and aggressive one. challenging".


 
  • Like
Reactions: JDJones and cavok

bob saunders

Platinum
Jan 1, 2002
28,102
1,720
113
dr1.com
From todays news, DR needs to solve own problems with illegal haitians (message to Windy, maybe a Canuk or two as well? ):LOL:

Massive flow of Haitians generates urgent call to Abinader

A number of 161 Dominican personalities, including the highest retired positions of the military and police commands, have asked President Luis Abinader to take urgent measures in the face of the massive transfer of undocumented Haitians to the country, “supported with foreign and local resources. ”.

This problem, they state, “encourages the permanent claim of sectors of the Haitian leadership that our territory belongs to them and that they are simply recovering it, following a strategy of progressive occupation, which has gone from having a peaceful and silent character to an aggressive and aggressive one. challenging".


This fear is very common amongst Dominicans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JDJones

arturo

Bronze
Mar 14, 2002
1,321
91
48
This is not the popular opinion and I'm interested in facts that may dispute it. By any objective measure the problems of Haiti and the Dominican Republic differ more in severity than anything else. In other words, the social and economic problems of Haiti are more intense versions of those of the Dominican Republic, more of the same. No, the Dominican Republic can't independently resolve Haiti's problems but it has a unique role to play due to its geographic location.

Attempts to deny that unique role are irrational and illogical. There is an old saying in the southern United States; "a hit dog will holler". It means forceful rejection of criticism is a tell that the criticized party knows the criticism is truthful. I think that is what is behind the disproportionately emottional dialogue in media and elsewhere among Dominicans when the ills of Haiti and the Dominican Republic are conflated.

The Dominican Republic, like any other country, is motivated to avoid foreign or domestic policies that may exacerbate its socio-economic problems. I think the idea that the Dominican Republic does not have the wherewithal to independently resolve all the problems of Haiti and the Dominican Republic is reasonable. If foreign aid is any indication, the Dominican Republic does not have the wherewithal to resolve all its own problems. Foreign aid and foreign relations come with conditions. The wealthiest countries are not dependent on foreign and therefore determine the conditions of providing it. When the Dominican government balks at being independently responsible for Haiti, my opinion is that it is a reference to sharing its foreign aid with Haiti. In the early 2000s Jacques Chirac, the late French president caught a bit of flak when he referred to Haiti and the Dominican Republic two countries one one island with similar problems. That did not go over well in some circles because it reflected the reality that the rest of the world sees Haiti's problems as regional rather than isolated by its very porous borders.
 

arturo

Bronze
Mar 14, 2002
1,321
91
48
From todays news, DR needs to solve own problems with illegal haitians (message to Windy, maybe a Canuk or two as well? ):LOL:

Massive flow of Haitians generates urgent call to Abinader

A number of 161 Dominican personalities, including the highest retired positions of the military and police commands, have asked President Luis Abinader to take urgent measures in the face of the massive transfer of undocumented Haitians to the country, “supported with foreign and local resources. ”.

This problem, they state, “encourages the permanent claim of sectors of the Haitian leadership that our territory belongs to them and that they are simply recovering it, following a strategy of progressive occupation, which has gone from having a peaceful and silent character to an aggressive and aggressive one. challenging".



It's a consistent historical theme going all the way back to medieval Europe and beyond. In times of economic uncertainty and social crises like the bubonic plague and Coronavirus, governments and citizens look for ways to understand what's happening and determine solutions. Absent solutions or understanding, scapegoating, xenophobia, and tribalism take its place. Modern political terminology for the phenomenon include words like "nationalism", "patriots", "nativism" etc. It tends to ratchet up and spread globally the way it is in recent months when there are multiple crises. Unscrupulous members of the political class take advantage of the difficulties to feather their nests and to deflect responsibility by focusing on and demonizing "foreign threats" to the "our way of life" construct.

The Dominican Republic/Haiti version of this has long been fed by government corruption. Widespread misery from neglected infrastructure and social welfare could lead to unrest beyond the occasional tire burning if there is no external focus for frustration and disaffection. Haiti and the Dominican Republic are victims of an unfortunate system of codependent corruption.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Caonabo

NALs

Polls Forum Moderator
Jan 20, 2003
9,589
471
83
nsxplus1 said:
1822 Haiti invades the Spanish colony DR
If only that was the only one, but in reality military invasions from Haiti to the DR goes like this:

- 1801: First Haitian invasion of the Dominicans. Toussaint claims he's acting in the name of France, but once Napoleon got a hold of what Toussaint did it turns out he was never authorized. Hence, not long after that event French troops from France arrived and took Toussaint in shackles. After their arrival but before he was arrested, he was so furious that the Dominicans gave up to the French that he ordered the Dominican troops and their wives he took from Santo Domingo to be killed in retaliation. His order was fulfilled, although they were disarmed first and then butchered at night.

- 1805: Dessalines invades the Dominicans (2nd Haitian invasion) after spreading a letter claiming that Dominicans have a few days to decide if they are with him and if not, they will be punished. He put Santo Domingo under siege for about a month and had to hastily give up and head back to Haiti after seeing a French boat off the coast heading west, presumably to the Haitian side when practically the entire Haitian army was outside Santo Domingo. He ordered his men to lay to waste the Dominican territory on their way back to Haiti and that was done mainly by the branch that marched via the Cibao. The branch that returned via the south had that order from him, but was dissuaded by their leader Alexandre Petion. Every town in the Cibao (except Puerto Plata) was burned, rural folks living in their isolated homes were surprised as the army passed by and destroyed their property, Dominican women and girls were raped, multiple massacres of entire towns, others were taken as prisoners and forced to march to Cap Haitien where they were killed in the most cruel manner, even livestock and chickens were killed. To make matters worst, once Dessalines was in Haiti and became aware that the French boats were not headed to Haiti, he boasted about the punishment he ordered on the Dominicans. The destruction that was committed by this event had repercussions that lasted many years in the DR and some of which still exist today (mostly resentments due to this event and the fact that the Haitian government still refuses to emit a mea culpa for this).

- 1822: The third Haitian invasion took place about a month after the Dominicans broke off from Spain with the intention of joining Gran Colombia. This event lead to 22 years of Haitian occupation of the DR. It was inacted by Boyer claiming he arrived in peace at a society that was too weak for its own defense (hence the desire to unite with Gran Colombia) with thousands of Haitian soldiers. The title of an article published within weeks of the Haitians establishing themselves says it all: The Haitian Government Oppresses The Spaniards, with 'the Spaniards' being the Dominicans.

-1844: The fourth Haitian invasion and the start of the Dominican-Haitian War which lasted until 1856, one of the longest wars of independence anywhere. This and all Haitian invasions in later years were accompanied with Haitian forces submitting the Dominican population in the towns they capture to hardships including starvations and untimely deaths/killings. This invasion was done by Mr Herard, who was quoted as saying that he will have to do a crime for which he would be criticized, but he felt obligated to save his country (ie. subject the entire Dominican population to a general massacre). The towns were burned on their retreat and this encouraged the further reduction of the Dominican population in the border region as people migrated further east to get away from the destructions. One visible example of this is Hipólito Mejia. There were two Mejía lineages in Gurabo, one that is older from the 1500's and the one from whom Hipólito descends who arrived to the area at the time of the Haitian invasions. They migrated from Spain to Hincha in the 1600's and from there were forced to migrate to Baní in the 1800's. From there they sent delegations to different areas of the DR looking for a place for their final settling down and Gurabo was the choosen spot due to the quality of the soil and the climate. They have been there ever since, though Hipólito's generation is the first since then that migrated out of Gurabo. Hipolito's dirt floor wooden house where he grew up is still standing in Gurabo, though completely fenced off.

-1845: The fifth military invasion from Haiti. A part of this invasion was to take place with the capture of Puerto Plata by sea, but the captain committed an error induced by the darkness of the night and instead landed on Bergantín beach, east of the current Playa Dorada. They were witnessed by two Dominican fishermen who alerted the authorities and the Haitians were all captured and taken as prisoners to Puerto Plata. During the interrogation they revealed several things to the Dominican authorities, including that they were ordered to capture Puerto Plata and round up all the Dominican men and boys and shoot them to death. Dominican women I think 40 years old and over to be tied in two and placed on Haitian military boats and shipped to Cap Haitien, for what they never said. The young Dominican girls were going to be at the discretion of the Haitian officers, though the exact orders that they got was that they can do whatever they wanted to them. Dominican girls up to 5 years old were to be killed through dismemberment.

-1849: The sixth military invasion, but the first with Faustín Soulouque at the head (who declared himself emperor for life, so his title was Emperor Faustin I). This invasion didn't had the intention of killing the entire Dominican population, because Faustin I himself wasn't that bloody... yet. He was surrounded by men who convinced him of the "necessity" to massacre the Dominican population in order to "save" Haiti, and it was once this convincing took place that he was quoted as saying that he will kill the Dominicans as if they were hogs and that not even the chickens will be left alive. With a declaration like that, there was really one choice and that was to beat him at all costs because losing meant you and everyone you knew was finished.

-1855: Soulouque attempts his second invasion of the Dominicans, seventh of the Haitian invasions.

Soulouque was preparing for invading the Dominicans again in 1859, but before the invasion was suppose to take place he was the victim of a coup and forced out of power.

I think I got them all. Its important to note that there is evidence that the invasions of the Dominicans was highly unpopular among the Haitian population, particularly the women as they would see their husbands and sons dragged to the army during times they would need their help in farming the fields.

There are other aspects that from time to time would irritate Dominicans. For example, the now central part of Haiti was actually Dominican territory since the 1700's and when the country was established in 1844, it claimed that the border between the two countries is the original one between Spain and France. This meant that towns such as Hincha, San Rafael, and San Miguel (all founded in the 1700's by Spanish families from the Canary Islands) were Dominican towns. As expected, the Haitian authorities didn't like that and since the DR's independence to 1929 there was a land dispute between the two countries regarding where the border was located. Haitians claimed the border was further east. That area, much of it known as Valle de Guava (now its known as Centre Plateau), also had a small Dominican population due to the constant wars that Haiti innitiated everytime they would invade the Dominicans. So with time Haitian peasants would move in to create small farms and work the land, pushed by the increasing overpopulation of Haiti. The Haitian government would also use the presence of these Haitians as further proof that Haiti was the owner of those lands.

In order to put an end to the land dispute, the American military arranged that the DR would give Haiti that land and in 1929 a border agreement treaty was signed by the two countries officializing the border further east then where it was originally. One aspect to note is that the American army invaded the DR from 1916 to 1924, but they invaded Haiti from 1915 to 1934. Basically, a land dispute that existed for decades was put an end when Haiti was still under US rule, ahem.

Around that time, the Americans unilaterally decided that the "official" name of the island was Haiti, but the Dominicans protested until the Americans suggested Hispaniola. Since Dominicans nor Haitians protested, Hispaniola was choosen. However, a glance at any constitution in Haiti evidences that the island is always referred to as "Island of Haiti," but in Dominican constitutions it always says "Island of Santo Domingo." This is another ahem. Now, to be fair the only time the whole island was officially called "Island of Haiti" was during the 22 years that Haiti occuppied the Dominicans. The 300 years or so before Haiti became a country the entire island was called "Island of Santo Domingo" and even the French when they arrived in the middle 1600's (for about 200 years the entire island was Spanish) to name their territory as "Saint-Domingue" which means Santo Domingo in French. For the 176 years since the DR became independent in 1844 the eastern two-thirds of the island is also known as "Island of Santo Domingo." That would mean that "Santo Domingo" has been used as the name of the island for around 476 years.

Just saying...

PS. I forgot to mention the easy part. The Dominican Republic has invaded Haiti exactly 0 times since its inception and every war it had against Haiti was fought in Dominican soil. Now that I think of it, almost every war the DR has had is to protect its physical integrity and its right to exist, that's why all of them were fought not just on Dominican soil, but very deep into the country. If it wasn't attacked from the outside, it would hardly have any wars other then the civil wars that took place, and like all civil wars these were Dominicans vs Dominicans.
 
Last edited:

CristoRey

Welcome to Wonderland!
Apr 1, 2014
5,806
1,894
113
The time to have provided funds for a border wall was following the 2010 earthquake, when it was widely reported and observed that ALL of Haiti's prisons were emptied. Thousands of murderers, rapists, and pedophiles released.
To where? Ten years later, and nobody knows.
In a comment I responded to a few weeks ago I basically
said the same thing. I've met a few where I used to live and
all of them were nice people (to me) but I was surprised
when I found out later that all four of them had broken out
of prison over there in Haiti.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Caonabo

CristoRey

Welcome to Wonderland!
Apr 1, 2014
5,806
1,894
113
"a hit dog will holler"
Buddy I grew up between Duval and New Orleans.
Born and raised in the south, never heard that before.
Absent solutions or understanding, scapegoating, xenophobia, and tribalism take its place. Modern political terminology for the phenomenon include words like "nationalism", "patriots", "nativism" etc. It tends to ratchet up and spread globally the way it is in recent months when there are multiple crises. Unscrupulous members of the political class take advantage of the difficulties to feather their nests and to deflect responsibility by focusing on and demonizing "foreign threats" to the "our way of life" construct.
Sounds like we have us another one of those intellects who
knows what is best for the rest of the world. Clearly you
have no clue about the historical relationship between these
two countries. Haiti is a very real threat to the sovernty of this
nation. I have several Haitians friends living here in Santiago
who will tell you the exact same thing.
 

NanSanPedro

Nickel with tin plating
Apr 12, 2019
1,638
1,225
113
You may know this better from your experience in Haiti Nansan but don’t Haitians look a lot more towards the US and Americans are more welcome in Haiti ?

Yea that's somewhat true. The USA has a giant footprint there. From a Christian standpoint, it's said that there are more Christian missionaries in Haiti than anyplace else in the world. In a way, that has backfired because we have created a lot of dependencies.

I believe the majority of Haitians would love to become a protectorate of the USA. Only problem is the USA would not go for it. Even the libbies would balk because of the tremendous cost.
 

NanSanPedro

Nickel with tin plating
Apr 12, 2019
1,638
1,225
113
Maybe financially France has a responsibility. Didn’t Haiti have to pay damages to France for many years ?

Yes. They paid millions in reparations to France for breaking the yoke of slavery. Go figger.

From wikipedia

Haiti’s legacy of debt began shortly after gaining independence from France in 1804. In 1825, France, with warships at the ready, demanded Haiti compensate France for its loss of slaves and its slave colony. In exchange for French recognition of Haiti as a sovereign republic, France demanded payment of 150 million francs. In addition to the payment, France required that Haiti discount its exported goods to them by 50%.[2] In 1838, France agreed to reduce the debt to 90 million francs to be paid over a period of 30 years to compensate former plantation owners who had lost their property.[3] The modern equivalent of $21 billion was paid from Haiti to France.[4]

The transfer of wealth from Haiti to the French government and from Haiti to the various banks that financed the Independence Debt is well established. Detailed claims, submitted by former slave owners for compensation, including the monetary value of the "lost" slaves, and which formed the basis for the French government's demands have been documented.

Likewise, the terms of the 1825 Ordinance and accounts of its negotiation have survived.

The French government finally acknowledged the payment of 90,000,000F in 1893. It took until 1947 for Haiti to finally pay off all the associated interest of the debt.[5] The story of the first payment – 24,000,000 gold francs – being transported across Paris, from the vaults of Ternaux Gandolphe et Cie to the coffers of the French Treasury was recorded in detail. Historians have traced loan documents from the time of the 1825 Ordinance, through the various refinancing efforts, to the final remittance to National City Bank in 1947.[3]
 

NanSanPedro

Nickel with tin plating
Apr 12, 2019
1,638
1,225
113
FYI, the educated in Haiti read, write, and speak French. Some of the Haitians I knew wanted to learn it better. I told them I hated French and wouldn't ever learn it. They looked at me funny until I explained to them that it was the French who enslaved their ancestors and who stole their money in those asswipe reparations. They understood.

M rayi franse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: melphis