Vote For 'Ninguno' (No-one)

I saw something along these lines in Chile, where voting is obligatory. Once you register to vote, you must vote in every election or you are fined. As a protest against traditional politics and/or being forced to vote at all, many people, especially youth, nulled their vote. (And many never register to vote at all.)

What is interesting to me is that there seems to be a somewhat organized movement. I'd be interested to know what their plans are beyond getting NINGUNO on the ballot box. A clever idea, but will it be able to change things? Certainly that the organizers are the same that rallied to save Los Haitises from the cement factory is a great sign. I remember thinking there was no way a group of activists would be able to get that cement plant away from the park!

They better "evolve" faster into the "consciousness raising." I counted around 20 at the "protest" on the Clave article.

20.

That's it.

(I wondered where they partied later...nothing like a few cold ones while recounting how relevant they just were...like passing the bong after a Protest Against The Man like we did back in the 60-70's...:cheeky

Hell, I saw more burn tires and protest over the possibility of a RD$5 incresase in beer in Los Cacaos.

Kids protesting is nothing new. Remember the esteemed Kangaroo Court Trials of the Ministress of Edumacation over poor milk? The excitement? The hope for change? The drama? The "consciousness raising?" Worked well, huh? She's still on the gubmint teat. Those "committed" folks ran out of juice.

How about those kids put down their iPods and designer sunglasses and ORGANIZE a REAL Political Party and go convince people ~their~ enlightened candidate has better ideas? THAT is actual democratic participation, not wearing cool T-shirts and new Nike's acting hip and cool on a Sunny afternoon in the CZ. THAT is how it works. But THAT is also goddamn hard work and takes YEARS to work...and isn't nearly as hip as a walk in the park and some blogs and facebook accounts.

Some commenters claimed this is a veil for Dr. Guillermo Moreno. Maybe so, who knows? But if it us, he's gonna have to do a LOT better than that. He got...what? 0.4% of the vote last election?

At least these folks have the RIGHT to peacefully protest. In Venezuela, that enlightened Workers Paradise of Socialist Thought, they'd have had their heads split open by Chavez goons...

Lambada said:

'From little acorns..............'. I think they have the right to choose their own pace for 'evolving'.

These folks actually achieved something at Los Haitises. I see the pourers of cold water don't mention that.

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Los Haitises was a clear violation ofg law.

I don't see any comparison with LH and the political will of 9,000,000 people. Non sequitor.

If they have a better political idea, they should present their candidates and compete for the hearts and minds of the voters.

You realize that MOST acorns, by a staggering minority, never germinate...regardless of the "pace" of "evolving."

One protest for one sunny afternoon by a couple of dozen "enlightened" yuppies in the CZ does not seem to be a national movement. There were more "acorns" tossing large rocks across the streets in Samana over the dust of road construction there.

I dunno. "Vote for No One" seems pretty lame for an activist political movement. But then again, I value results and not intent.

wtf. politics is not an abstract entity that has nothing to do with people. politics IS people. they do not like parties, candidates and programs? fair enough. but why warm chairs with their warm butts when they could be taking action instead?
i am a firm believer in voting. i come from the country that went through many political changes. and it was the movement of people that brought poland freedom. those no-oneists know no better than complain and demand, lousy HDP!

dv8 said:

i am a firm believer in voting. i come from the country that went through many political changes. and it was the movement of people that brought poland freedom. those no-oneists know no better than complain and demand, lousy HDP!

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What is interesting to me about this movement is that they do NOT want people to abstain from voting. Their argument, if I understand it correctly, is that there needs to be another option on the ballot for those who take the time to vote yet are disappointed with the candidates. By having an official "NULL" vote, it would allow voters to register a protest while still exercising their right to vote.

So rather than vote for the lesser of two evils, it would be to vote for NO evil at all.

I too would like to see more than just a slot on a ballot from this group since they seem to be an organized group fed up with the status quo, but I think it's an interesting concept and start.

las2137 said:

What is interesting to me about this movement is that they do NOT want people to abstain from voting. Their argument, if I understand it correctly, is that there needs to be another option on the ballot for those who take the time to vote yet are disappointed with the candidates. By having an official "NULL" vote, it would allow voters to register a protest while still exercising their right to vote.

So rather than vote for the lesser of two evils, it would be to vote for NO evil at all.

I too would like to see more than just a slot on a ballot from this group since they seem to be an organized group fed up with the status quo, but I think it's an interesting concept and start.

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It's a cop out to complain about parties and candidates without offering an alternative.

It's just b!tching.

It's no different than those moron anarchists dressed in black who throw fits at economic summits. They are like spoiled kids who don't like what their parents put on the table. I doubt one of those well-dressed, neatly coiffed kids with designer sunglasses understands what real suffering is, not to mention REAL work to get their political ideas actually put into action.

All style. No substance.

CB's First Law of Rhetorical Economics: The reason "talk is cheap" is because the Supply exceeds the Demand.

Lambada said:

Exactly. But I believe it goes beyond this: they are not merely 'complaining & demanding' as itemised above, nor would it be appropriate to 'present their candidates and compete' when what they are analysing is the structural nature of the problem. They are seeking to debate with others and to raise awareness about the problems of the existing party system in the DR, & its clientilistic nature.

I'm probably older than a lot of people here but the nearest similar movements seem to me to be the early days of movements against oppression, whether it be gender oriented or race oriented. The first thing which happened in both cases was allowing a space for those thoughts to be voiced. Didn't the feeling issues emerge first, followed by the ideological issues and then came the political struggle? It's a different playing field from 'results' - it's a process and from that process comes the roadmap, if you like. Isn't that what participative democracy is about? But I guess to see that one has to step back and view it from a broader perspective.

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I was around then too...as a semi-oldster. I remember well.

Are you saying these kids want to change the "system?" To what? The one you favor? Like the one due south? Those "ideological issues?"

Allowing those thoughts to be voiced? Huh? Are you serious???? You think these kids are the FIRST to complain about clientelism? Corruption? Or are they just complaining that they have to WORK for their political bones? Their voices aren't being "heard?"

I'm sorry, call me an unenlightened pea-brained results crank, but wearing matching T-Shirts and designer shoes on a sunny day strolling through a tourist shopping zone or holding mock trials over bad milk to b!tch is like peeing in a pair of dark wool slacks: you feel all warm and fuzzy, but nobody notices.

There is a difference in the actions of William Wallace or the signers of the US Declaration of Independance and these kids. WW and the signers put their lives and fortunes on the line. These kids hardly broke a sweat. Glad no one broke a nail, or they'd complain about oppressive conditions...:cheeky:

Big f'n deal. Kids don't like The Man. Shocking. Just shocking.

You wanna change something? Form a Party, run candidates THEN demand to be heard. Otherwise, you do nothing. You are the problem.

Moreno complained and he actually RAN against those same issues...to his credit. And he got less than 1/2 of 1% of the vote.

The "structural nature" of the problem is the folks who actually vote and express their legal, constitutional political will outnumber those kids 99 to 1. They (and their supporters) just don't like it. So what they can't accomplish through legitimate means they want to change some other way.

What these kids want is for the citizens of the DR to join their temper tantrum.

Lambada said:

Exactly. But I believe it goes beyond this: they are not merely 'complaining & demanding' as itemised above, nor would it be appropriate to 'present their candidates and compete' when what they are analysing is the structural nature of the problem. They are seeking to debate with others and to raise awareness about the problems of the existing party system in the DR, & its clientilistic nature.

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that's the whole problem ther. it is not enough to say "hey, did someone fart? it stinks in here". one has to get up and open the window. seeking debate and rasing awarness is not gonna cut it, i'm affraid. this is not philosophy class, this is real life.
still, i am impressed that young posh dominicans show interest in something else than designer clothes and dining in TGIF...

dv8 said:

still, i am impressed that young posh dominicans show interest in something else than designer clothes and dining in TGIF...

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Until the latest iSomething comes out...:cheeky:

Lambada said:

Maybe they have learned that Moreno's way of doing it got very little following?

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Did it occur to you that maybe the people just rejected Moreno and his ideology? That it had little to do with his "method?"

cobraboy said:

I was around then too...as a semi-oldster. I remember well.

Are you saying these kids want to change the "system?" To what? The one you favor? Like the one due south? Those "ideological issues?"

Allowing those thoughts to be voiced? Huh? Are you serious???? You think these kids are the FIRST to complain about clientelism? Corruption? Or are they just complaining that they have to WORK for their political bones? Their voices aren't being "heard?"

I'm sorry, call me an unenlightened pea-brained results crank, but wearing matching T-Shirts and designer shoes on a sunny day strolling through a tourist shopping zone or holding mock trials over bad milk to b!tch is like peeing in a pair of dark wool slacks: you feel all warm and fuzzy, but nobody notices.

There is a difference in the actions of William Wallace or the signers of the US Declaration of Independance and these kids. WW and the signers put their lives and fortunes on the line. These kids hardly broke a sweat. Glad no one broke a nail, or they'd complain about oppressive conditions...:cheeky:

Big f'n deal. Kids don't like The Man. Shocking. Just shocking.

You wanna change something? Form a Party, run candidates THEN demand to be heard. Otherwise, you do nothing. You are the problem.

Moreno complained and he actually RAN against those same issues...to his credit. And he got less than 1/2 of 1% of the vote.

The "structural nature" of the problem is the folks who actually vote and express their legal, constitutional political will outnumber those kids 99 to 1. They (and their supporters) just don't like it. So what they can't accomplish through legitimate means they want to change some other way.

What these kids want is for the citizens of the DR to join their temper tantrum.

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the problem is, that the dominican political system is a pretty closed one. all those that do not play by the rules get no access. thats what this movement is all about. sure, they can put up candidates, but to what effect? the dominican republic doesn't need more political parties or candidates, it needs a system where it matters whether or not people want a certain politician.
but the problem is that the whole patron-client system is way too established. people want better candidates sure, but watch what happens once somebody stops distributing salamis, jobs and money, or won't intervene once called upon to solve a legal issue etc. i have seen people discuss the jeepetas they expect of a longtime friend who is running for office, and get realy mad at friends that didn't perform as expectet as a protector, and didn't get them their placa oficial or badge or whatever.

on the other hand, this is an embarassement to a political system, so something has to be done:

YouTube - Amable Aristy Castro Tirando Dinero Desde un Helic?ptero

YouTube - Peleando por un salami

YouTube - Amable Aristy

Mariot said:

the problem is, that the dominican political system is a pretty closed one. all those that do not play by the rules get no access. thats what this movement is all about. sure, they can put up candidates, but to what effect? the dominican republic doesn't need more political parties or candidates, it needs a system where it matters whether or not people want a certain politician.
but the problem is that the whole patron-client system is way too established. people want better candidates sure, but watch what happens once somebody stops distributing salamis, jobs and money, or won't intervene once called upon to solve a legal issue etc. i have seen people discuss the jeepetas they expect of a longtime friend who is running for office, and get realy mad at friends that didn't perform as expectet as a protector, and didn't get them their placa oficial or badge or whatever.

on the other hand, this is an embarassement to a political system, so something has to be done:

YouTube - Amable Aristy Castro Tirando Dinero Desde un Helic?ptero

YouTube - Peleando por un salami

YouTube - Amable Aristy

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This was discussed into the mud during the last Presidential election.

The answer is very simple: the process and system is what Dominicans want. Not all Dominicans. But looking at voting patters maybe 85-90% of them.

It's called "political will" and is another form of consumer behavior. Just like changing brand loyalty, when enough people want something else, they get it (unless you live under a dictatorship.) Yes, it frustrates those who want power and can't get it. But it is what it is.

And the Aristy brand didn't get much market share, did it?

There is one way to change the Dominican political system: the establishment of a professional Civil Servant system. Until that happens, nada.

And if one thinks Moreno or any other candidate wouldn't put ~their~ people in all those gubmint offices they are being naive. To NOT put your folks in positions of power in the DR gubmint is career-limiting and won't accomplish squat.

If one is inclined to overlook Cobra's tone and the usual over-used rhetoric, there is a grain of truth in what he is saying (I think).

People usually get the political system they want, not withstanding the minority who are legitimately searching for systemic reform. It seems to me that the tipping point was reached quite some time ago, and the corruption, cronyism, and elitism are now all well-ingrained in the Dominican political culture.

Creating any kind of meaningful change at this point might well be out of the question and completely unrealistic to expect.

Perhaps the best way to deal with the embedded corruption and thievery is to abstain from participating in it.Maybe it would be more effective for people to "work around" the system, which is not likely to be changed at this point.

For those Who watched the Super Bowl half-time show performed by the Who; Their attitude exhibited in the song, "Won't be Fooled Again" might well be a very good attitude for people to adopt at this point in time.

"....the new boss, the same as the old boss."

catcherintherye said:

If one is inclined to overlook Cobra's tone and the usual over-used rhetoric, there is a grain of truth in what he is saying (I think).

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You never struck me as a style-over-substance guy.

But I've been wrong before.

Fact is my comments are accurate. I just draw a straight line between A and B. No fluff.

I leave nuance to the social scientists and intelligencia...