Unusual Legal Question

Puerto Plata Bum · May 22, 2010

I was staying at a gringo hotel and bar in Puerto Plata. For legal reasons, I will phrase this as "I have seen one of the owners on multiple occasions spend time with and take upstairs to a room no less than 30 Dominican girls who clearly appeared to be underage." This owner showed up at my business with 2 Nacional police in tow. The 2 nacional police told me that it was against the law to say that he was "having inappropriate relations with underage girls and that he was going to sue me for saying so." 2 of my black gringo friends told the police that if he wanted to sue me that this was not a police matter.

I was also told that I was kicked out of my hotel room and that I wasn't allowed to return. This was 8:30 at night. I went to the Politur and explained the story the best I could in Spanish. They dressed up and with me in the police truck, headed to the hotel/bar. The owners lied and said that my rent was due and that I had to leave. I went in the room with a politur escort and showed them a receipt proving that my room was paid for and I still had 3 more nights in my room.

The owners outright refused to let me stay in the room that I paid for. To solve this matter and to get to bed, I asked the police to escort me to my room, let me pack my things, and to witness that the room was left in satisfactory condition and that nothing was stolen or damaged. They also witnessed me leaving the property and placing the keys in the hand of the owner.

Now that my story is told. My legal questions since this is the legal board:

1) Is it against the law for me to say in a bar that this man is "having sexual relations with underage girls?" Consider that I have actually seen him with girls that clearly appeared to be underage and he was flaunting this at the bar.

2) If this person tries to sue me as he threatened, then what?

3) Were the police in the right showing up at my business telling me that I wasn't allowed to return to my hotel room that I paid for and this "man" is going to sue me?

4) When my black gringo friends tried to intervene, he yelled at them (in front of the police he brought) called them THE NAME you do not call black people. If it is against the law to say bad things about people here, then couldn't my friends sue him for the same thing?

In conclusion, I know the DR isn't sue happy like the US is and you would never hear of a case where a person sued a restaurant because the coffee was too hot. I believe this person will simply self destruct.

MikeFisher · May 22, 2010

if yu name him in public/at a bar/in his business etc a guy who takes underaged girls, yes, he can sue you for that.
to do so he has to file charges at the court, it has nothing to do with the police.
but he can ask the police for assistance to keep a unloved visitor away from his business/hotel/bar/restaurant, nothing you can do against. if he doesn't wanna have you around his property you have no right to be there.
you did the right thing to pack and leave the room under the eyes of the Politur, and you should sure not consider to stay again in a hotelroom under that guy's control, neither at a place run by ''friends'' of that guy or under control of his police friends.
an other point to not forget:
if you mess with the wrong guys who get escorted by 'police friends' for off-duty matters your biggest concerns might not be simple lil probs to get sued or such, you should then better watch your back very carefully.
from reading your posting i guess you are not very well connected in the 'hood wheer you stayed at the hotel or where you have your 'business', so you better should not mess around with guys you don't know anything about.
if you wanna file charges against him for taking underaged girlies you need to file charges at court and to do so you should have clear prrof for the hard accusations.
otherwise just stay away from him,
or better just move to an other side of the Island.
good uck
Mike

DMV123 · May 22, 2010

Puerto Plata Bum said:
1) Is it against the law for me to say in a bar that this man is "having sexual relations with underage girls?" Consider that I have actually seen him with girls that clearly appeared to be underage and he was flaunting this at the bar.

UNLESS YOU HAVE CLEAR IRREFUTABLE PROOF YOU CANNOT SAY THIS. AND YOU DONT HAVE IT - HOPE HE DOES NOT HAVE YOU CHARGED!

2) If this person tries to sue me as he threatened, then what?
THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO PROVE IT IS TRUE AND IF YOU CAN'T YOU WILL BE FOUND GUILTY BUT HE IS PROBABLY FULL OF HOT AIR. AT LEAST YOU SHOULD HOPE SO.

3) Were the police in the right showing up at my business telling me that I wasn't allowed to return to my hotel room that I paid for and this "man" is going to sue me?

WITH THE POLICE OFTEN RIGHT OR WRONG IS IRRELEVANT.

4) When my black gringo friends tried to intervene, he yelled at them (in front of the police he brought) called them THE NAME you do not call black people. If it is against the law to say bad things about people here, then couldn't my friends sue him for the same thing?

PROBABLY NOT ANYTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT THIS.

In conclusion, I know the DR isn't sue happy like the US is and you would never hear of a case where a person sued a restaurant because the coffee was too hot. I believe this person will simply self destruct.

Well I guess you can hope for that. Just avoid stupid people, don't make assumptions and mind your business as much as possible.

jrhartley · May 23, 2010

why would you want to stay in place where you just accused the owner of having sex with underaged girls -dont you think he might be a bit miffed

Lambada · May 23, 2010

Child sexual exploitation by US, Canadian, UK & all G8 citizens abroad is an offence back in their countries of origin. In Thailand for example, there are posters 'Commit crime in our country – Go to jail in yours'. Since 1997 the US have convicted 65 people for child sex offences committed outside the USA, and Australia has convicted 28, but the UK have only managed to convict fewer than half-a-dozen.

If you are not well connected here in the DR, my advice would be to report the matter to the relevant authorities in the country where the alleged predator comes from. Have a look through these websites:

For Canada Canadian Tipline Child Sex-Tourism

For the US
Child Exploitation Crimes

CyberTipline

For the UK
ECPAT UK

Offenders Beware: Child sex tourism case studies

G8 Experience in the Implementation of
Extraterritorial Jurisdiction for Sex Crimes Against Children

Don't be scared to contact these organisations - I have found the ones I have extremely helpful. They will look at whether the evidence you have is sufficient for them to pursue an investigation.

tflea · May 23, 2010

Anonymous

Mr. Bum,
Since you are somewhat anonymous here, just name this place in this public forum and perhaps someone will read it and look into it?
You will not win this game going to local authorities. That's a dead-end street. Believe it or not, if the owner of the establishment is a citizen of one of the countries previously mentioned by Lambada then it might get some attention. On the other hand, you can look the other way from this common, ugly practice and nobody would probably blame you for doing so. Depends on how much you want to involve yourself. In general, with this being such an unfortunate (to put it mildly) common practice here, it might also just be chalked up as an ugly memory and the loss of a few bucks and some pride. Your call.

belgiank · May 23, 2010

Lambada said:
Child sexual exploitation by US, Canadian, UK & all G8 citizens abroad is an offence back in their countries of origin. In Thailand for example, there are posters 'Commit crime in our country ? Go to jail in yours'. Since 1997 the US have convicted 65 people for child sex offences committed outside the USA, and Australia has convicted 28, but the UK have only managed to convict fewer than half-a-dozen.

If you are not well connected here in the DR, my advice would be to report the matter to the relevant authorities in the country where the alleged predator comes from. Have a look through these websites:

For Canada Canadian Tipline Child Sex-Tourism

For the US
Child Exploitation Crimes

CyberTipline

For the UK
ECPAT UK

Offenders Beware: Child sex tourism case studies

G8 Experience in the Implementation of
Extraterritorial Jurisdiction for Sex Crimes Against Children

Don't be scared to contact these organisations - I have found the ones I have extremely helpful. They will look at whether the evidence you have is sufficient for them to pursue an investigation.

Lambada,

I'm sorry, but this makes me laugh kind of green...

the us convicted 65 people since 1997, out of several, prob hundreds of thousands, of child abusers in foreign countries...

and am not attacking the US, same goes for several countries (Germany, UK, well prob all european countries)...

the fact that for example thailand now actively hunts down those sex-offenders, and jails them... is much more important, and is something every country with this "tourist" problem should consider...

Lambada · May 23, 2010

belgiank said:
the fact that for example thailand now actively hunts down those sex-offenders, and jails them... is much more important, and is something every country with this "tourist" problem should consider...

Yes Thailand does, but the DR doesn't. That's why I agree with tflea, it will not be effective to go to the authorities here. That's why I was suggesting alternatives. They might not convict as many as you or I would wish, but it's a higher rate than the DR.

In order to get this matter dealt with here you need to know people. And you need to make sure you're not the sort of expat who attracts problems because going to the authorities here with a complaint about another expat who has been here longer & maybe has more contacts, is only going to start the avalanche of hassle which can ensue. And once it starts, you might as well leave.

Lambada · May 23, 2010

JDJones said:
Hmmmm.. let's see.... 'a gringo hotel and bar' with upstairs rooms..

That kinda narrows it down, doncha' think?

Yeah. To about one.

J D Sauser · May 23, 2010

I agree with tflea and Lambada.

To accuse somebody of what ever here, you better have eye witnesses in numbers in excess to the witnesses the accused is likely to drag into the fiscal's office to refute the claim and then turn around and sue you for defamation.

In the case of child abuse or statutory rape (even with "consentual" under age working girls) I can understand the OP's aggravation however.

But then, one has to take some local "customs" into account. The age limit, while officially 18, can be seen affected by such a girl's history... E. g.: she being a mother already... which turns her pretty much into "fair game".

"Well connected"? Well, there are some lawmen who take the issue of dirty ol' foreigners "using" underage girls (not even minding their previous "history" or reputation) PERSONALLY serious... very personally serious. If you find such a person, and they believe you, they can turn into quite a nightmare to the perp... but also to the accuser, should it ever turn out that it all just was a lame intent to get back at somebody over a beer tab issue.

So, unless you really have strong feelings about the underage girls part of your story, I'd take up Lambada's and tflea's advise and let it go or take it to the perp's country or origin.

... J-D.

Hillbilly · May 23, 2010

The old wooden structure down town? I used to know the gringo owner, years ago. Used to make the best hambergers in the DR...long, long time ago...

this is a no-win situration, unless you want to go to the Boys, Girls, and Adolescents Court and file a complaint and produce witnesses and victims.

HB

Lambada · May 23, 2010

No-one is going to answer that HB :cheeky:, a) because we don't know & b) if the OP misperceived the situation, we would be maligning the reputation of an innocent party.

Either the OP knows how small Puerto Plata is & how everyone talks, or he doesn't. He has had advice here on this thread about the child abuse allegation. But to any future posters with a similar issue & who live in a small town where everyone knows everyone, my advice would be as follows: take whatever action you deem appropriate without making a post about it on DR1 unless you heavily disguise the location of the problem. Otherwise these things can come back to bite you in the posterior. Remember that the person you're accusing could be another poster here...

jrhartley · May 23, 2010

before we start naming names

girls who clearly appeared to be underage

there seems to be some doubt , so it would be unadvisable to whittle the hotel down and name it at this point

Ken · May 23, 2010

Puerto Plata Bum, I suggest you say nothing further, at least until you get an answer to your question from Fabio Guzman,

You may already be in a difficult legal position and this is a public message board. You have no control over who reads it, and for all you know, this thread may already be in the file the bar owner is compiling for the lawyer who will handle his suit against you.

You should also be thinking about the possibility of a lawyer to defend you. You seem to have offended a well connected local, not the smartest thing for a foreigner to do. Other than suing you, there are lots of other option that the bar owner and his police and political friends have, including stopping you and finding drugs in your pocket, even though you are sure there were none there before. I know of several people who went to jail on trumped up drug charges and held without trial until they paid large sums of money to obtain their freedom.

Puerto Plata Bum · May 23, 2010

Useful advice for a bad situation

I thank those who have replied to this. I have read carefully and of course will be consulting with a lawyer Monday. I will await Fabio Guzman's legal advice on this matter. The person involved is a gringo and not a Dominican. Those who have witnessed this (on many occasions) were clearly disgusted. I wasn't the only person giving him an earful but I was the only person who had a room at this "establishment."

waytogo · May 23, 2010

Just out of curiosity, if the OP is sued, and by some miracle the plaintiff wins a monetary amount, what are the consequences if the OP doesn't have the money to pay and has nothing to take? And if the plaintiff loses, what can the OP do to collect his legal fees from him?

tomas2 · May 23, 2010

So is the ?truth? a defense to Libel in the DR? I wrote a hotel review, and it was posted on DR1. It was the honest-to-God truth of my experience at the hotel, and I was actually pretty generous leaving a bunch of stuff out (opinions on observations unrelated to the issue I had).

The owner "moved on" to another site (his account got banned on DR1 for other reasons), and the members there saw the same behavior that got him banned on DR1, and started to gang up on him. They started quoting my post, teasing him, and the owner seems to think I was these other posters (even though the IP address of these other posters are in the DR, and I have not been there for many months).

Last week I was forwarded an e-mail (probably from one of these posters) that originated from the owner. I went to the site and posted him a question asking him what exactly about my review was not true, and from his response, it sounded like he believes the truthfulness of the post doesn?t matter in the DR, all that matters is whether the statements hurt his business.

I am not trying to hijack the thread, but I think it is kind-of the same deal. If you are telling the truth, isn?t that a defense in the DR?

Here is the e-mail that I got (and no, my account had not been banned on that other site):

So DT banned you again and yanked all your posts. How many times is that? Give up child. DT owners are smart. DR1 not so.

What you sowed that night and since you will continue to reap in your life. That is a universal principle and you know it! And DR1 and you are both named in the court cases started here and in the USA for legal defamation. They will send you notices as they come in of when and where to appear. It will make your stay here, if you decide to chance coming this way, rather interesting and expensive! Due to great sucesses in business these last two years I have deep pockets to fund this drive for justice.

Thanks to you I am not an agent at ("the Real Estate place where he was working") and giving them 50%, rather I own my own real estate company and I am collecting 50% from agents working for me. As you know the Hotel is doing just great and as we bought at the bottom and fixed it up we have gained $____ ...well I'd rather not say - no need to make you jealous.

MikeFisher · May 23, 2010

waytogo said:
Just out of curiosity, if the OP is sued, and by some miracle the plaintiff wins a monetary amount, what are the consequences if the OP doesn't have the money to pay and has nothing to take? And if the plaintiff loses, what can the OP do to collect his legal fees from him?

no way he could ge his legal fees/expenses from anybody, and if he wins the perv just may be get inprisioned with no bucks on hand of the accuser neither.
if somebody brings a perv down it is not about making money, it is simply about bringing a perv down, which is in my own simple eyes anyways worth much more than any money.
but that's just a principle of myself.
the way Bum described the situation/ocurrances here means to me clearly that he should just watch his back and sty away from his gringo friends bar/restaurant/hotel/nightclub or where ever he had a room to spend some time at.
nothing of above written sounds like any proof worth to name it that.
a bunch of drunken guests at a gringo hotel bar nightclub whorehouse place see/seem to see/guess to have seen on several drunken visits that the owner took underaged Gals 'upstairs' for something illegal.
heck,
in what blueeyed world you grew up, Puerto Plata Bum????
would one of your companions at that club for sure show up in court to say 'it was that way'??
did one of them really live-observing a illegal act???
by your above descriptions you do not have anything of a fraction of a proof for anything illegal and you have aside of some begging off eyewhitnesses nobody who would support your word at court.
i really say you should watch your back and also your writings here on the bord, a public bord.
that you wrote the way you did here tell's me that you also talked to peole in your surroundings the same way, and such is more than just a bit dangerous, depending with whoom you are trying to mess around.
what Lambada suggested would be a good way to go in such case, but i would advise to not write about it that way on a bord or tell it everybody around the 'hood.
good luck
Mike

centurion · May 24, 2010

Sound's like that pervert who's bar is on the malecon.

ExtremeR · May 24, 2010

The only one who can charge the owner if he is in fact having sexual intercourses with underage girls are those girls parents. Other than that this is just pure speculation and a prime example how a clueless gringo can get in a SERIOUS trouble in the DR.

Stop thinking and acting in the DR as it you were in the USA or Europe. Learn the local customs and get some street game so you can avoid this type of problems. I hope you go out unscathed from this one and learn your lesson.

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