Lien/Embargo

Betty Rogers

Newbie
May 23, 2016
4
0
0
I had a cleaning lady that worked for me and I had to let her go, because I found out, that she was stealing from me. I went to the oficina de trabajo and offer her the money they suggested. She wouldn't take the money and instead hired a lawyer. After going to court for a few years, i lost the case.

I owe around 200,000 pesos and don't have the money. I own a small house in Sosua and live on SS.

What should I do? Can I make monthly payments. I am very worried because i have heard that they can take all your furniture and later take your house. I don't know what to do and I don't want to be living on the streets.
 

AlterEgo

Administrator
Staff member
Jan 9, 2009
23,145
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South Coast
Did you have a lawyer? I'm under the impression from Sr. Guzman that domestic employees are not entitled to liquidation unless there is a business of some sort being run from the house. How long did she work for you?
 

caribmike

Gold
Jul 9, 2009
6,808
202
63
If she has stolen from you, she should be in Jail or fined and not being able to get a severance pay. Typical... :mad:
 

Kipling333

Bronze
Jan 12, 2010
2,528
829
113
yes Alter Ego unless you rent out your house, even at short times ,you have to pay the severence pay which the government office calculates for you. If there is no renting, then strictly speaking , there is no severance pay, but I pay it , right to the last peso that she would be entitled to , if I rented the house . As far as going to court, it is unusual that Dominican domestics can afford a lawyer but if you do end up there, then you will have little chance of winning, because the evidence will be manipulated. Always handle the dismissal of employees with kid gloves ...
 

LTSteve

Gold
Jul 9, 2010
5,449
23
38
I had a cleaning lady that worked for me and I had to let her go, because I found out, that she was stealing from me. I went to the oficina de trabajo and offer her the money they suggested. She wouldn't take the money and instead hired a lawyer. After going to court for a few years, i lost the case.

I owe around 200,000 pesos and don't have the money. I own a small house in Sosua and live on SS.

What should I do? Can I make monthly payments. I am very worried because i have heard that they can take all your furniture and later take your house. I don't know what to do and I don't want to be living on the streets.

Betty:

Did you have an attorney representing you during the case? Why would you give this person any severence if she was stealing from you? Not knowing all the details it sounds like you dropped the ball on this. I would immediately hire an attorney and find out what your options are? Why would she be owed that amount of money? That sounds very excessive?
 

the gorgon

Platinum
Sep 16, 2010
33,997
83
0
Betty:

Did you have an attorney representing you during the case? Why would you give this person any severence if she was stealing from you? Not knowing all the details it sounds like you dropped the ball on this. I would immediately hire an attorney and find out what your options are? Why would she be owed that amount of money? That sounds very excessive?

if you have an employee that you suspect is stealing from you, you have to make a note of each particular instance, and have it recorded with the labor board. you cannot simply wait until it comes time to pay liquidation, then say you are not paying because she stole some heirloom handed down from the days of the flood.
 

Betty Rogers

Newbie
May 23, 2016
4
0
0
Yes, I had a lawyer, but my lawyer sold the case. The reason I had a cleaning lady, was because I was living in Canada and I would rent it out sometimes. My cleaning lady was also renting it out with my knowledge.
 

Cdn_Gringo

Gold
Apr 29, 2014
8,672
1,133
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Based on the limited info supplied by the OP, clearly she needs a lawyer or a new lawyer. It is a little late in the game but an appeal of the decision is the next step if doing so will cost less than $4500 USD and it should.

We all know (Virgo here is your opening) that foreigners are often preyed upon by the locals, the shop keepers, contractors, the police and the legal system. We know that when we invite Dominicans and Haitians onto our property to perform some service for a pittance of what we would pay at home, we are opening ourselves up to property damage, theft, heartache and sometimes death. You can never completely trust someone who does not share a common perspective with you on the rules of the game just like you can never completely trust your pet tiger not to have a bad day and swat your head off.

If you are going to get involved in the idea of having a maid, gardener, handyman, then you need to takes steps to protect yourself first.

1) Talk to a lawyer and completely understand the labor laws here before you hire someone
2) Have the person sign a work agreement that clearly states they are not an employee but a person offering their services on an as needed basis.
3) Do not befriend these people. Do not ask where they live, how many kids they have etc.
4) Do not give them gifts (old clothes, pots & pans etc) You are attempting to maintain at least 6 degrees of separation between you and them.
5) Do pay them a reasonable cash bonus at Christmas.
6) Outside people have no business being in your home. Exception to use the bathroom. Escort them in, and escort them back out again.
7) Try to avoid feeding them. It is better to give them an additional $100 pesos so they can bring their own lunch than the worker being able to claim you cook for them. Surprisingly, provided meals seems to hold weight with the courts.
8) Do not have the same person working at your home more than two days a week for longer than 6 hours at a time. If you need help everyday, hire enough people so that no one individual can claim full time employment status.
9) Clean your legal shotgun on the back terrace at least once where every helper can see what you are doing.

The fact is - no one really enjoys cleaning your toilet or picking up your dog's messes in the yard. They do it for the money and the anticipation of extras. We feel badly when we pay someone $5 for 6 hours work, so we give them $10 to make ourselves feel better. We believe it's no big deal, but in their eyes, we are weak and are apt to overpay, can afford to overpay, have cool stuff so they latch onto the idea of getting some of that when the timing is right.

Perhaps not everyone you may pay for services is on the make, but certainly most of them are. You will have problems, if you get too close to your "help", try to be their friend, show too much of an interest in them or fail to correct their work because letting it go is easier than figuring out how to discipline someone in a foreign language.

You have to understand from the outset - when you establish a pay for service arrangement with anyone, you are setting yourself up for potential future problems. You have to ask yourself if doing so worth the potential risk or is it a better idea to clean your own toilet? If you choose the former, you need to very clear and always conduct yourself in such a way as to come across as pleasant, fair and so that in no uncertain terms, these helpers are not your friend and are not your employee. If they seem to be getting too close, too familiar or too comfortable, it may be time for a change in the help dept.

I have heard stories of longtime help having a crisis in their personal lives and after many years of good service to their gringo, use that relationship to solve their crisis by way of theft or violence. You cannot blur that line with the help and bank on a good outcome.

I am Se?or Cdn_Gringo to the help, never simply gringo.
 

Cdn_Gringo

Gold
Apr 29, 2014
8,672
1,133
113
Yes, I had a lawyer, but my lawyer sold the case. The reason I had a cleaning lady, was because I was living in Canada and I would rent it out sometimes. My cleaning lady was also renting it out with my knowledge.

There is your problem. You gave this person responsibility over your property and that makes her an employee. Pay the money and be done with it. You may refer to her as a cleaning lady, but you were using her as a property manager at least some of the time.

You blurred "the line" and now you have to pay. You put yourself in this position. I hope you have learned for the next time.
 

Derfish

Gold
Jan 7, 2016
4,441
2
0
I learned my lesson. My question is what happens if I don't pay?

I would suppose that her lawyer would put a lien on your house and subsequently have it sold out from underneath you to satisfy this debt. I would offer her payments of what you can afford. 2000 pesos a month for 12 years? Something like that.
Der Fish
 

franco1111

Bronze
May 29, 2013
1,248
229
63
Gringo
Based on the limited info supplied by the OP, clearly she needs a lawyer or a new lawyer. It is a little late in the game but an appeal of the decision is the next step if doing so will cost less than $4500 USD and it should.

We all know (Virgo here is your opening) that foreigners are often preyed upon by the locals, the shop keepers, contractors, the police and the legal system. We know that when we invite Dominicans and Haitians onto our property to perform some service for a pittance of what we would pay at home, we are opening ourselves up to property damage, theft, heartache and sometimes death. You can never completely trust someone who does not share a common perspective with you on the rules of the game just like you can never completely trust your pet tiger not to have a bad day and swat your head off.

If you are going to get involved in the idea of having a maid, gardener, handyman, then you need to takes steps to protect yourself first.

1) Talk to a lawyer and completely understand the labor laws here before you hire someone
2) Have the person sign a work agreement that clearly states they are not an employee but a person offering their services on an as needed basis.
3) Do not befriend these people. Do not ask where they live, how many kids they have etc.
4) Do not give them gifts (old clothes, pots & pans etc) You are attempting to maintain at least 6 degrees of separation between you and them.
5) Do pay them a reasonable cash bonus at Christmas.
6) Outside people have no business being in your home. Exception to use the bathroom. Escort them in, and escort them back out again.
7) Try to avoid feeding them. It is better to give them an additional $100 pesos so they can bring their own lunch than the worker being able to claim you cook for them. Surprisingly, provided meals seems to hold weight with the courts.
8) Do not have the same person working at your home more than two days a week for longer than 6 hours at a time. If you need help everyday, hire enough people so that no one individual can claim full time employment status.
9) Clean your legal shotgun on the back terrace at least once where every helper can see what you are doing.

The fact is - no one really enjoys cleaning your toilet or picking up your dog's messes in the yard. They do it for the money and the anticipation of extras. We feel badly when we pay someone $5 for 6 hours work, so we give them $10 to make ourselves feel better. We believe it's no big deal, but in their eyes, we are weak and are apt to overpay, can afford to overpay, have cool stuff so they latch onto the idea of getting some of that when the timing is right.

Perhaps not everyone you may pay for services is on the make, but certainly most of them are. You will have problems, if you get too close to your "help", try to be their friend, show too much of an interest in them or fail to correct their work because letting it go is easier than figuring out how to discipline someone in a foreign language.

You have to understand from the outset - when you establish a pay for service arrangement with anyone, you are setting yourself up for potential future problems. You have to ask yourself if doing so worth the potential risk or is it a better idea to clean your own toilet? If you choose the former, you need to very clear and always conduct yourself in such a way as to come across as pleasant, fair and so that in no uncertain terms, these helpers are not your friend and are not your employee. If they seem to be getting too close, too familiar or too comfortable, it may be time for a change in the help dept.

I have heard stories of longtime help having a crisis in their personal lives and after many years of good service to their gringo, use that relationship to solve their crisis by way of theft or violence. You cannot blur that line with the help and bank on a good outcome.

I am Se?or Cdn_Gringo to the help, never simply gringo.

She owes 200,000 pesos. You are suggesting she hire a lawyer for 4500 usd? That is the same amount she owes. Why would she go through the giant headache with the lawyer and court when she could just pay the judgment? Maybe you mean she would pay the lawyer substantially less than 200,000. That's the only way it would make sense.

The rest of what you wrote, although I can't read all of it - too long again, is very sad. What a way to live. Sounds like hell. It seems you have become completely disillusioned. Especially remembering that other long thing you wrote a while back.
 

shorts

Member
Dec 3, 2012
311
3
18
2) Have the person sign a work agreement that clearly states they are not an employee but a person offering their services on an as needed basis.
.

Does that even matter?

Guzman has posted in the past that what we know to be independent contractors are considered employees in Dominican courts.
 

Cdn_Gringo

Gold
Apr 29, 2014
8,672
1,133
113
She owes 200,000 pesos. You are suggesting she hire a lawyer for 4500 usd?

No that's not what I am saying. If you read what I actually wrote you would see I said "less than". The OP didn't mention that her cleaning lady was acting as a rental agent in her first post so I was commenting on just what the OP had said up to that point in time.

The rest of what you wrote, although I can't read all of it - too long again, is very sad. What a way to live. Sounds like hell. It seems you have become completely disillusioned. Especially remembering that other long thing you wrote a while back.

This thread and my post isn't about me. It is about the reality of hiring domestic staff by foreigners who have no experience doing so or managing domestics or employees when they were living back home. Foreigners here who believe that they can help a local by offering them a job around the house without considering the implications of doing so, can easily find themselves in a similar predicament as the OP. It happens all the time. There are lots of threads about problems with domestics on DR1 and in conversations I have had when out with other expats.

Quite simply, if you are unable to part on good terms with someone who has been doing regular work on your property, you can expect their first stop to be to a lawyer or to the Govt Office to lodge a complaint against you.

That is the way the game is played here more often than naught. The locals know or feel that most gringos will pay something rather than drag out a lengthy legal action and have to pay a lawyer - the same mentality you espouse in your comment about the $4500. This is probably true, most would rather settle than become part of a soap opera and end up having to pay even more later on because the cards are stacked against the foreigner from the outset. They know it, and we should know it.

That's why I wrote my post, so that those foreigners who think they can befriend their domestic help and treat them like family might wish to rethink their approach. The help certainly doesn't consider the gringo a part of their family; They are a paycheck and a liquidation bonus when the misdirected love ends.

If you can't read through 8 or 9 paragraphs, how did you ever get through reading a whole book in school? Or if you can't be bothered to read the post, why bother commenting on something you haven't read?
 

Cdn_Gringo

Gold
Apr 29, 2014
8,672
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Does that even matter?

Guzman has posted in the past that what we know to be independent contractors are considered employees in Dominican courts.

I choose to use one so that if there is every any ambiguity as to what the arrangement was, I have something in writing to show that it was not meant to be a full-time employment situation for life. Will it help? Maybe not but I don't think it hurts.
 

AlterEgo

Administrator
Staff member
Jan 9, 2009
23,145
6,314
113
South Coast
As soon as she said she had rental income from the property everything I said is moot. She has to pay the judgment. Not paying isn't an option.

Borrow it if you need to, but pay it. Otherwise you may have a rude awakening at immigration. If you get in okay, she can have an impediamento de salida enforced and you won't be allowed to leave.
 

charlise

Bronze
Nov 1, 2012
751
0
0
There are lots of threads about problems with domestics on DR1 and in conversations I have had when out with other expats.

I would then suggest that you stop hanging with expats.... Especially if you discuss problems all the time. It seems to depress you...


Originally Posted by franco1111
The rest of what you wrote, although I can't read all of it - too long again, is very sad.

And then when you are depressed, you start lecturing or one could say, writing your life story on DR1.. Not good...

So to stay happy, don't mix with gringos and expats. You'll see your life will be less depressing....
 
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Fabio J. Guzman

DR1 Expert
Jan 1, 2002
2,359
252
83
www.drlawyer.com
If you don't pay you may lose your property.

Try to get the ex-employee to give you some time to pay. If she refuses, borrow the funds and pay.

For the small amount involved, hiring a lawyer to appeal the ruling (if it still can be done) or negotiate does not make sense.
 

rogerramjet1

New member
Sep 10, 2015
433
0
0
Does that even matter?

Guzman has posted in the past that what we know to be independent contractors are considered employees in Dominican courts.

Could someone clear what independent contractors me

what if my workers are bonafide 'casuals' as in not 'full time'...just called as i need them. And there may be a pool of them.
 

rogerramjet1

New member
Sep 10, 2015
433
0
0
Sometimes i ask myself why bother living here and
having a cleaner, security guard or any of these people even in your house...it seems to be to much trouble comes when you do.
Even if you run a small home that rents its rooms to travelers (i guess your making money, and will need to pay your employee who cleans your fridge).
Or what if i rent my entire home for profit, and i have a cleaner or grounds man to 1 time monthly tidy up everything ( grass/clean floor and bath).
you know what...i think ill just do my pool myself and cut and clean my property and house myself.
Save myself $150 a month anyways in doing so.

If your property for profit is a 'company' will that free you from the above persons problems, i mean how does one circumvent the above written problems
 
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