Just a dash of racism, & a pinch of prejudice, with a side order of bigotry?

Isaac Green · Mar 19, 2002

Having read the posts of GOLO re:El Jefe I think that the issue of blacks and whites is a good topic to take up.

It is foolish for a group of people like the Dominicans that were conquered by the Euro-Savgs.
to themselves perpetuate that terrible system by practicing it on the Haitians and and other persons of color in there country. This same system of racism is what destroyed the Arawak, Taino, and other natives. Being an African American I feel well at ease in the Dominican
Republic so long as I am able to be as far removed
from the Euro's and the American Necks as possible. The Dominicans should not be so naive to
share the same racist thoughts of its former Euro
masters. I have never experienced racism in the
DR perhaps because the money of a tourist is enough to blunt the actions of racism and besides
I would never tolerate such a thing after all.
I think that the DR may need more Pena Gomez's in
very visible positions, I also hope that expats have not brought with them the same taint that they carried in the States.

El Jefe · Mar 19, 2002

Racism

I abhor racism whether in the DR or US. I have sen it up close and it is not a pretty thing. When I speak of Haitians in the DR that are there illegally, or wetbacks in the US, it has nothing to do with race. It has to do with their illegal status. I do not believe in the amnesty programs that we've had in the States and would not recommend similar programs in the DR. this is a reward for breking the law and is an insult to the thousands who have applied for legal entry and are waiting patiently to be accepted.

I think the Bracero progrma is good and benefits both Mexico and the States. If something like that could be worked out with Haiti and the DR, that would be okay, but just letting them come across illegally is wrong and they should be deported.

If you look you will not find very few, if any posts from me that refer to color...only to nationalities. You will not see any that says that anyone is lower than another because of color. You will find that I am critical of illegal immigrants and for that I don't apologize.

The hatred in the DR for Haitians is not so much a racial isue but a lingering of the hatred of an oppressor. Haiti ruled the island at one time and I don't think the Dominicans have ever gotten over it.

Isaac Green · Mar 19, 2002

Well I agree in part.

El Jefe,

If the curent sea of bad blood between the DR and
Haiti is because of the past occupation of the DR
it is time to get over it. Think for a moment I
as a black man could go on and on and on about how the system of slavery has forever ruined me I have
decided that I will acknowledge history for what it is and I will get on with the current while leaving the past where it is in the past. A true
measure of maturity is the ability of one to be
able to move on perhaps the DR is not yet there?

On the illegal immigration issue I agree illegals
are very dis stabilizing to the well being of a
country the DR as a poor country can barely take
care of its self let alone Haiti. The plight of the DR with respect to Haiti and illegal immigration is in part the fault of the Dominicans.
How do you think so many Haitians juump the border
so very influential Dominicans are on the take
along with the border guards you should perhaps place some of the blame for this problem where
perhaps it truly lies and that is at the feet of the Dominicans that support it and allow it to occur.

The Dominican mentality my friend I think is in part racial the Spanish conquered the DR and where
there far longer than the Haitians, I don't see a
backlash against that which is of Spain or of Europe in fact I see the opposite. That is my point the DR must do more to express and acknowledge its true Blackness perhaps far more than it has so far. Also why do you think that the
black populace in Haiti is so much greater than in the DR? Whether you like it or not the Haitians have made in part the DR what it is today. Much like the blacks have made the US what it is today in part.

Jane J. · Mar 19, 2002

El negro es bello!!

To tell Dominicans to just "get over" their dislike for Haitians is a huge oversimplification. The feeling between Dominicans and Haitians is not the same racism as that found in the US, where all are citizens of the same country, have the same rights and freedoms, speak the same language, etc. The Dominican/Haitian bad feeling could be better compared to Israelis and Palestinians. While everyone wishes they could "get over it", the animosity is far too complex and based on hundreds and hundreds of years history.

As for Blackness (your word), I don't think all Dominicans necessarily identify with being of African descent or "black" - perhaps due to the wide variance of skin tones and features of their race? There does exist a more insidious form of prejudice, as does in other black cultures like South Africa, to name one. This whole classifying by skin tone thing: prieto, moreno, indio, blanco would not be acceptable in any Western country. Imagine: black, medium-black, cross-between, white. There's also pelo malo, pelo bueno; inferring that kinky hair is bad, straight hair good. One that particularly unnerved me was to hear that my husband and I were "refinando la raza" by having children. Naturally, I don't pay any attention to people who call us cafe con leche anymore.

While it may strike Americans, Canadians and Europeans as grossly incorrect to label things this way, I think it's done innocently, without the hatred that fuels racism in, let's say, the southern States. Heh - in my son's class there were two Alexanders. Alexander White and Alexander Black (and those weren't their last names). In a way, it's nice to be free of all that political corectness that we are becoming slaves to these days.

Hillbilly · Mar 20, 2002

I am not sure anyone not born and raised here can understand the black/white thing.

Dominican Fact: The population here is dark because of the Haitian Domination of 1922-1844
Dominican Fact: Trujillo did a good thing in 1938. 50,000 less Haitians.
Dominican Fact: Lighter is better than darker

And I am sure that there are others. Now, while this might be offensive to some, to the Dominicans in general, they don't give it a second thought.

"More Pe?a Gomez" ? Not in a thousand years....Wanna guess why he was never elected??? On his own merits? In the case of the sindicatura or anything in Congress, just being nominated was enough to get elected. Dominicans vote mostly by party not by a candidate's merits. Pe?a was not elected for two reasons: 1. There was always doubt as to his real nationality at birth. and 2. He was very very dark and " ordinario" -a Dominican euphemism for negroid...so, in spite of his incredible appeal to the masses, his rousing speeches and his personal magnitism, they just could not bring themselves to vote for him...

I find that the Vox populi is a great teacher and shows a lot of the realities in a society. Like I didn't need the latest polls to know that not many appreciate the current government; there were enought Hipolito jokes to know that. The same thing applied to Pe?a:

Qu? color es Pe?a?
No s?.
Tiene dos colores.
Anj??
Si, de la cintura para arriba, ?l es negro.
Y de la cintura pa' bajo, ?l es prieto con cojones! Smirks...

However, as seen above, the Dominican humor about race is never far from the surface. In one family there will be a "Blanquita", a "Moreno" and maybe even a "Negro". When dating, the family always sizes up the possibilities of "bettering" the race...

Now these are facts of life here. But they are also facts of life within the Black communities of the USA, and this is well documented. Just go to Morehouse/Spellman and see.

I am sure that you, Isaac, will not ever receive any racial mistreatment. It is not in the nature of the Dominican people. You will always be judged on how you behave, how you dress, how you handle yourself in social situations.

Be yourself and you shouldn't have anything remotely offensive happen to you....

HB

Isaac Green · Mar 20, 2002

JaneJ

Jane,

If the Dominicans (can get over their having been
conquered by the Spanish than why not the same about the Haitian issue? There is more to this than meets the eye, and I hope one day we can all
just have an absolutely no holds bar discussion
on race so that we can see what divides us
and what unites us).

Oh by the way which are you the cafe or the leche?

Jane J. · Mar 20, 2002

I'm the leche...

El Jefe · Mar 20, 2002

Isaac,

The Dominicans were not conquered by the Spanish...it was the indeginous people of the island that were conquered...Tiger's Tainos. They are extinct. The Dominican of today is a mixture of different races. Part Spanish, part black, maybe some German or Irish...a little generic caucasian. These folks were not the conquered. Those conquered by the Haitians were Dominicans not the indigenous, as they were already wiped out.

Criss Colon · Mar 20, 2002

Easy Isaac.

You are starting to sound like "Tiger"! If you talk like a "Black-Militant" from the 60,s people will dismiss you as a "Fanatic"! Don,t blame all the problems of the "Black Community" on "slavery",or "Red-Necks",or Euro-Savages,or Euro-Masters! (your words!)Slavery is not a "European" tradition,it came from your African brothers selling each other as slaves! You state;"I also hope that expats have not brought with them the same "Taint" that they carried in the States." How dare you presume that all expats carried a "Taint" in the Stares,and would you care to explain what "taint" we supposedly carried? You my friend are sounding like the very people you purport to condem! Don,t ever forget that "Racists" come in all colors,not just "White"!Criss Colon

Isaac Green · Mar 20, 2002

Im calm and collected.

Look my friends get this much about me right.

If you bother to read my statements they are always prefaced with some, or another word of similiar distinction. I never try to broadly characterize any group of anything that is ignorant right?

Unlike some of you get off of it when have you ever seen me post that I am some how disadvantaged because I am an African American or that I deserve a quota or that I'm entitled to a preference.

That is that same lame argument that the programmed robots in the States go into when
describing why they are successful and others are not don't play that line with me. It is amazing
how this subject was changes to everything under the moon except the main topic of the DR and Haiti
problem. As for the EX-PATS as in all groups there are rotten apples am I right? I hope that
there are very few in this one, and furthermore I never accused all ex-pats of anything!

As for the Spanish Conquest I do not believe that
every Dominican today is the product of a union between a Spanaird and a slave do you? I also do not believe that the addition of a few Euros to the mix is entirely explanatory for the Dominican
race my point being that the while over time the
conquering Euro-Trash did DOMINATE the DR that some current day Dominicans are the product of unions between Spanairds and the indiginous people
of old, which takes me back to my original point
if the Spanish can be forgiven for their trangressions than why not the Haitains??

I guess that now I WILL BE ACCUSED OF BEING A
A NATION OF ISLAM RADICAL. My only point is why
do the oppressed often perpetrate that same actions on their own?

Criss Colon · Mar 20, 2002

Isaac,you are over medicated,under medicated,

a drunk,or just an unfortunate person,but you have completely "Lost It"! Your "Posts" have no meaning.I,m sorry.I won,t bother you anymore.You might see a doctor.Sorry.Criss Colon

travlingirl · Mar 21, 2002

A Criss by any other name... Please!

Well, anybody who signs in as the namesake of the notorious Great Invader can be forgiven for his inability to see it from certain points of view!

I like your cohones, Isaac (in the figurative sense, of course)!

Here's a true story, which happened this year. Since it's somewhat germane to the point at hand, I'm White. Comments welcome, as they relate to the topic at hand.

I was in Cuba for several weeks, and brought along my favourite CD's of African (as in Yoruba, JuJu, etc) music. These were enthusiastically borrowed, taped, and the music was heard blaring through the barrio, much to the delight of Cubans of all descriptions. I have requests to bring many more.

I was in DR for several weeks as well, and brought the same music. I was floored when my Dominican friend snarled at me - "Why do I have so much BLACK (his emphasis) music?" I looked at his face, which to me was the face of a Black man , and said I liked it. He responded with some of the same rhetoric I have read here. Confused, I asked him if there were any Black people in his family. "Yes, ONE!" was the reply.

Over the next few days, I suggested to him that if he were ever to consider a move to North America, which, of course, he had mentioned, that he would be seen as a Black man there.

On my last day there, he held his arm next to my tanned one, and said,"See, I am WHITE, and do not call me BLACK again."

One interesting point that came up in all of this: He loves Vince Carter, the basketball player. They share a similar complexion and facial features. My Dominican friend swears that Carter is White.

Racial identity is extraordinarily complex.

One Love!

Travlingirl

rebk4jc · Jul 24, 2004

The Truth About Dominican Racism

Hillbilly said:
I am not sure anyone not born and raised here can understand the black/white thing.

Dominican Fact: The population here is dark because of the Haitian Domination of 1922-1844
Dominican Fact: Trujillo did a good thing in 1938. 50,000 less Haitians.
Dominican Fact: Lighter is better than darker

And I am sure that there are others. Now, while this might be offensive to some, to the Dominicans in general, they don't give it a second thought.

"More Pe?a Gomez" ? Not in a thousand years....Wanna guess why he was never elected??? On his own merits? In the case of the sindicatura or anything in Congress, just being nominated was enough to get elected. Dominicans vote mostly by party not by a candidate's merits. Pe?a was not elected for two reasons: 1. There was always doubt as to his real nationality at birth. and 2. He was very very dark and " ordinario" -a Dominican euphemism for negroid...so, in spite of his incredible appeal to the masses, his rousing speeches and his personal magnitism, they just could not bring themselves to vote for him...

I find that the Vox populi is a great teacher and shows a lot of the realities in a society. Like I didn't need the latest polls to know that not many appreciate the current government; there were enought Hipolito jokes to know that. The same thing applied to Pe?a:

Qu? color es Pe?a?
No s?.
Tiene dos colores.
Anj??
Si, de la cintura para arriba, ?l es negro.
Y de la cintura pa' bajo, ?l es prieto con cojones! Smirks...

However, as seen above, the Dominican humor about race is never far from the surface. In one family there will be a "Blanquita", a "Moreno" and maybe even a "Negro". When dating, the family always sizes up the possibilities of "bettering" the race...

Now these are facts of life here. But they are also facts of life within the Black communities of the USA, and this is well documented. Just go to Morehouse/Spellman and see.

I am sure that you, Isaac, will not ever receive any racial mistreatment. It is not in the nature of the Dominican people. You will always be judged on how you behave, how you dress, how you handle yourself in social situations.

Be yourself and you shouldn't have anything remotely offensive happen to you....

HB

If you read Hillbilly's post you will easily realize how low and disgusting is dominican racism. But as cruel and dehumanizing it can be is not quite surprising to me. I was born and raised in the Dominican Republic and even the love and pride I feel for my homeland is endless I can't deny the fact that it boasts a tradition of discrimination that unlogically targets itself. Unlike in North America, where ethnic communities are discriminated by a different group, in DR you are directed to underestimate people with dark skin (regardless of their origin) even if it implies to do it to yourself.

What really exists in DR is an invisible SCORING SYSTEM, imposed by the spaniard conquerors that was completely absorbed by the oppressed group in a sick and twisted way. It was sick but understandable that the european colonialists to discriminate african slaves because they looked different, but it's embarassing to see how we let ourselves be humilliated and diminished by assuming we are inferior ourselves.

Dominicans literally 'score' themselves and others according to the level of darkness of their skin (the lighter the better). This also applies to ethnic features like a wider nose, fuller lips, coarse hair and dark eye color, which count as negative factors to your final 'score". This way you can see a dark skinned person to be more accepted by having green eyes or softer hair, because these caucasian characteristics are known to increase your 'human quality' and this carries as consequence a greater possibility of success. According to your assigned 'qualification' you are entitled to better or worse treatment. In DR you are not likely to be bullied or killed for being black but expect to be considered inferior in an allegedly 'funny' and 'natural' way. Your possibilities of living a good life are based in your looks. If your skin is lighter you have better possibilities to be hired when you apply for a job possition than those with darker skin. You are expected to 'cleanse' your family by marrying someone with lighter skin. Families discriminate their own children based on the above entioned scoring system.

We have so much to learn from african-americans, which are characterized by their PRIDE and LOVE for their culture and heritage; in their case, several hundred years of oppression made them bold and strong, unfortunately it seems that our african ancestors' servilism and lack of self esteem was so big it led them to accept the humilliation like they deserved it this shame has been cherished through generations. What a shame!

sjh · Jul 24, 2004

this thread was finished march 2002.....

Yan-Yan · Jul 24, 2004

Guys, you are all over the place on this subject...

Hillbilly may be closer to home than most of you, but still far off...

Dominican racism has nothing to do with history... Most Dominicans still believe that we got our independence from Spain... I dare you to ask around.

BUT, what you call Dominican Racism is everywhere in Latin America!... In M?xico, you are discriminated for having Indian looks (look at Mexican TV! They are all white!)... In Colombia, Ecuador and Panam? Indians and Blacks have a tough time... Even in Brazil there is discrimination against blacks... So please, wake-up!!

On the other hand, I didn't know I was black until my first trip to Europe! I considered myself a Mulata - I thought that was a race!- because, that's what I always heard in the DR... I grew up wishing I was white because there was a white girl with blue eyes in my school that got all that she wanted because she was "sooo pretty!".... We glorify straight hair, white skin, only because it's rare...

We do not have a concept of black or white, we just assume someone is pretty or ugly, unfortunately that is directly related to the color of your skin.

I have a lot of white Dominican girlfriends; they are just perceived prettier than me, and like everywhere in the world, good looks take you far!!

So if you are a black person in the DR, you are not black, you are just ugly!... I had to leave the DR to appreciate my looks, I grew up with a complex that I only overcame after hearing time and time again that I was pretty... (I still hear that whenever I go to Europe or to mustly black populated places -like the Easter Caribbean-, but NEVER at home)...

I don't know what can fix that, but I'm happy I had the chance of escaping that mentality, and will be able to raise my children with a far wider view of what makes a person "pretty".

Education, education and more education is what we need!

Regards to all,

Yan-Yan

deelt · Jul 24, 2004

Gracias!

Yan-Yan

Glad you shared your story. These are the stories I feel are surpressed in this dialogue of wanting to change things in DR. In another thread I am being called a foreigner (because i live in the US) who is trying to impose a foreign point of view on how Dominicans think. However, your story, which is like many I have heard and I myself have experienced, proves my point to the Tee. I am glad that your were able to obtain a new kind of self-love and appreciation for your appearance. But more importantly, that you have learned that it is this appreciation that needs to be passed down to your children not the self-hate talk one often hears.

Best of luck to you.

Yan-Yan said:
On the other hand, I didn't know I was black until my first trip to Europe! I considered myself a Mulata - I thought that was a race!- because, that's what I always heard in the DR... I grew up wishing I was white because there was a white girl with blue eyes in my school that got all that she wanted because she was "sooo pretty!".... We glorify straight hair, white skin, only because it's rare...

We do not have a concept of black or white, we just assume someone is pretty or ugly, unfortunately that is directly related to the color of your skin.

So if you are a black person in the DR, you are not black, you are just ugly!... I had to leave the DR to appreciate my looks, I grew up with a complex that I only overcame after hearing time and time again that I was pretty... (I still hear that whenever I go to Europe or to mustly black populated places -like the Easter Caribbean-, but NEVER at home)...

I don't know what can fix that, but I'm happy I had the chance of escaping that mentality, and will be able to raise my children with a far wider view of what makes a person "pretty".

Education, education and more education is what we need!

Regards to all,

Yan-Yan

ERICKXSON · Jul 25, 2004

deelt said:
Yan-Yan

Glad you shared your story. These are the stories I feel are surpressed in this dialogue of wanting to change things in DR. In another thread I am being called a foreigner (because i live in the US) who is trying to impose a foreign point of view on how Dominicans think. However, your story, which is like many I have heard and I myself have experienced, proves my point to the Tee. I am glad that your were able to obtain a new kind of self-love and appreciation for your appearance. But more importantly, that you have learned that it is this appreciation that needs to be passed down to your children not the self-hate talk one often hears.

Best of luck to you.

Get over it first of all buy a ticket and live here for a year and you'll see that we Dominicans and Non Dominicans can careless about the nonesense you write.....

deelt · Jul 25, 2004

Eric
I did live there. Thats why I can speak with certainty. I am not arguing that people aren't friendly. We are very accepting of others so this is not the issue. It is the cultural phenomenon that makes DR beautiful. However, what I am discussing is the more insidious damage that is caused by the self-hate talk that is spewed and easily accepted by the masses and, in turn, reflected in social class structures. Also, when it comes down to dollars and cents the observable trends by de facto supports what I say. For people who care to improved DR for all Dominicans, not just some, have a vested interest in changing the dialogue. Whether you think it is nonsense or not is none of my concern.

ERICKXSON said:
Get over it first of all buy a ticket and live here for a year and you'll see that we Dominicans and Non Dominicans can careless about the nonesense you write.....

Criss Colon · Jul 25, 2004

Who Said That You Can't "Raise The Dead"!!!!!!!!!!!!

You just can't do in HERE!!!
We stopped discussing "Race,Racism,Bigotry,etc. here 2 years ago! :chinese:
THREAD CLOSED!

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