Debating Democracy

I agree with you about "taking the medicine". The thing is that the medicine is no longer working and based on polls created, executed, and concluded from respected American companies, it's more than clear that Hippo is not very much liked. Thus my point for revolt, however, I did said either revolt or wait until August until Leonel comes back, after the fraud accusations are settle, of course. The only problem is that what ever time Hippo has left is more than enough for him to wreck the country to a point of no return. It's something to similar to what happened in Haiti (except they had a bad dictator with Hippo's style of doing business) and look where that country stand. And most democracies are created and maintained via violence. The only country in the world that I can think of having a democracy based on what the people really wanted has been the USA. Every other democracy has come to existence with some support from the USA (usually military but also financial support), not a revolution started by the residents of any country that today is a democracy, exception is USA. Democracies are also set for eternity or for as long as USA stays in power (which could be a while). Every democracy that is toppled (like in Haiti) is soon restored by USA and other pro-democratic nations, not by the people of the country being restored. I do support a violent de-powering of Hippo if Dominicans would like Hippo's way of doing business to stop inmediately, otherwise, they can always wait until August. It's just that there is so much at stake. Either act now and save whatever is left of the economy or wait and then find out that their is no point of return to a better economy or that it will take twice as much hardship to sail through the rough seas that the DR is sailing through right now. I do see your point however, I always had that mentality, it's just that know I have clarified it. I hope I have clarified it.

If it wasn't for violent revolutions, the US would have never been formed.

And if it wasn't for the civil rights movements in the 50's and 60's TRUE democracy would not have happen in the US. So if it took almost the whole existence of the US to realize somewhat of a TRUE democracy what makes you think countries like Haiti and DR will change over night.

There are many Democracys that had nothing to do with Democracy in the USA. Some were formed by violent revolution and some were not. Do we truely have Democracy when you get to vote, but then for the next 4-5 years the elected Dictator can do as he wishes until the next election(where he/she only has to make 50% + 1 happy?

Gringo in DR, you made half of my point. If it wasn't for violent revolutions, the US would have never existed. And those soon to be Americans decided to have a democracy, no other country or empire imposed such form of government on the Americans, they chose it themselves. And from the basic ideology of Democracy, The People are the ones that choose their destiny and if they can't see the light at the end of a very long and dark tunnel (like in the DR right now with Hippo and company) The People have a right to demand change. Dominican only have two options when it comes to demand change (for better or worse, but change non the less) One is violent revolt which gets results quickly or waiting for elections which are so far away that Hippo could plunge the country into pure chaos, yes, beyond of what it is already. So the question is, is it better for dominicans to stop Hippo now - due to the harm he has done the country - or should they let him keep raviging the economy even furthur, which will put the country in a very bad position. Oh sure, the country is already in a bad position, but would anyone want it to get any worse? Absolutely no. What will bring immediate action (faster than waiting half a year for the change of power to take place), is a violent confrontation with the government, why? Well, lets say that when the people scream and scream because they realize that they made a mistake by electing this no good president, they ask for mercy from this guy (Hippo) and all he does is make jokes out of the suffering of the masses, it's clear that the only thing that would make Hippo wake up is a violent confrontation.

One 'BRIT' chirping in as you suggested Chris.

NahOwhs .... Last time I checked Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Holland, Finland, The Republic of Ireland, France, Sweden, Belgium, .................... even down to little old Lichstenstein, all had pretty decent Democracies!! Probably even MORE democratically elected & run than the USA!! Remember the Florida vote??? I think most Americans will agree that more people voted for an alternative President to the one that was "Elected".

Before someone pushes in to suggest it, No, I am NOT knocking the US of A - just pointing out that most of Europe have democratically elected run countries where the voice of the majority IS still heard, albeit at times not as loudly as it should be!!

Like Chris, I will be ready to make MY opinion known if His Illustrious Hippo gets back in through fraud in 2004. IF dramatic action is taken by the masses BEFORE May 2004, this could give Hippo the excuse he needs to involve the army & police to create a Police State & keep him in power!!! Horror of horrors!! - Grahame.

It's true, however, most of those euroland nations received their democracy after the world wars, after America and Britain occupied them (very briefly, until they were back up on their feet). During that liberation of Europe, the Euroland nations adopted the democratic form of government and part of the reason lied in the US for imposing much of the democracy and even economy that exist in Europe today. The Euros did not, for the most part, chose a democracy out of their own will, they were heavily influenced by other democratic nations to chose that path, the path of democracy. But my point is not which countries around the world got the democracy what way (this board is about the DR afterall), my point is to pin point what options Dominicans have to get rid of the trouble causing current administration. The Hippo and company is riddle with trouble from within as well as from without. It's a pure mess. It's true that the one that should receive responsibility for part of the mess are the dominicans who voted for Hippo, but the Dominicans also have the right to take that responsibility of having a government that cares or cares a bit more than Hippo does about them. True democracy, or countries where the People rule, should allow for an inefficient and "toxic" administration to be removed even if that means removing them before any other elections. Sitting around and looking pretty is not a very democratic way of approaching things. Maybe this is why Democracy is having somewhat of a hard time in much of the world. There is no definitive ideology or "leader" that can clearly with certainty say what exactly democracy is. Even the US (the oldest modern democracy) had some dubious activities in it's last national elections (but most people simply accepted as Bush as the winner not because they wanted to but because it was "the best thing" for democracy). Sacrifying one's democratic rights for the sake of Democracy doesn't sound very democratic to me. So that I can understand a bit better why many of us in this board slightly differ on how dominicans should treat this problem, post what exactly does democracy means to you? Maybe we all think of it the same way but interpret it with different meanings. I would like to know that. What exactly does democracy means to you?

I agree with BushBaby

I have lived in the US for over 49 years and I don't believe that the US should be held up as an example of democracy, especially since the last "election." It is not a true democracy. If that were so, we would not have the electoral college.

It is true that dramatic changes often occurred in the US during times of public protest and civil war. Those times, however, were fairly well organized by those who were protesting and they had devised some sort of plan to bring about the changes they feel were needed. What plan do the potential rioters have for the DR? Have they thought thoroughly about how they would implement change? Without a plan, there can be no lasting change.

You are absolutely correct, sancochojoe. For those of you who have a technical background: any feedback system....whether electronic, biological, mechanical, social,etc....depends on its initial conditions. The initial conditions determine how long it takes to stabilize.

The USA began its democratic rule from a nearly clean slate. Only a tiny portion of the country was populated. Everyone had a chance to make his/her mark.

Countries such as the DR, which begin their democratic journey from dictatorial regimes, take much, much longer. This is beacuse not everyone begins from a clean slate. Equity is concentrated in the hands of a few.

It will take several generations to unwind the initial inequity. The trump card, however, is the influence of Dominicans (and others) living abroad. If this group brings their capital to bear in the DR, then maybe....

I think you have that backwards, Tony

The electoral college does not appeal to the general populace. Each state is assigned votes based on its population. If we would have followed a "true" popular vote, Mr. Bush would not be in office and the Supreme Court would not have determined our president. We need to change this system so that US citizens truly feel that their vote is important. That is why I said that the DR should not use the US as a role model. We are not a true democracy, and do not see why you feel a "true" democracy would result in anarchy.

I also missed your meaning in your last sentence.

My international relations teacher in college used to say this:

DEMOCRACY IS THE WORST FORM OF GOVERNMENT - EXCEPT FOR ALL THE OTHERS!

So nobody really answered my question, will we have riots on Tuesday or not? Anybody talk with people on the street?

Conchman said:

So nobody really answered my question, will we have riots on Tuesday or not? Anybody talk with people on the street?

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The intention of those organizing the strike is for it to be peaceful. In some barrios in the big cities and in some other locations where strikers are always more aggressive than in the rest of the country there could well be tires burned in the streets, rocks and stones thrown at passing vehicles, and even some shots fired if the police don't keep their cool. But in most places you are not likely to see any visible protest.

You guys talk about democracy so much, you really think you have democracy in USA? Do you even feel free in USA now-a-days?
Yeah, you might have more democracy than saudi arabia if you see it like that. But american democracy and freedom is only an illusion.

AZB, are you smoking.....

AZB said:

You guys talk about democracy so much, you really think you have democracy in USA? Do you even feel free in USA now-a-days? Yeah, you might have more democracy than saudi arabia if you see it like that. But american democracy and freedom is only an illusion.

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some sort of controlled substance? I know you're smarter than that statement by far. Maybe it's because you're Muslim that your sensitivity meter has gone off the scale. No?

As for all that chatter about British democracy, let's not forget that it was Mad George and his arrogant, ham fisted minister who forced America to fight for independence. To the bitter end Franklin/et al held out to maintain colonial status. Even in "democratic" France today security forces can jail a person on no charges for at least 3 days.....habeus corpus? Forget it. If you want to have a central government run your entire life, just move to Europe.....and up until this year HRH Prince Hans Adam von und zu Lichenstein ran the country like a private fiefdom.

So, will there be riots or not? Conchman and I would like to know.

Best, P

Relax everyone's at the beach, if any strikes take place I'm sure they will be reported on Wednesday.

Re: AZB, are you smoking.....

pasha said:

As for all that chatter about British democracy, let's not forget that it was Mad George and his arrogant, ham fisted minister who forced America to fight for independence.

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Thats the key point....US fought for Independence, not for Democracy. Remember at that time only, and Only the elite Males and Land Owners could vote. Maybe thats why it took them almost a another 200 years to show some attempt to realize true democracy.

What in god's....

sancochojoe said:

Maybe thats why it took them almost a another 200 to show some attempt to realize true democracy.

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name are you talking about...200 years? My goodness.

Best, P