Island consciousness

Gabriela

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Dec 4, 2003
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I've noticed on other forums that people like to forget that Hispanola is an island. Although it is a huge island, it is, nevertheless an island. I once vacationed on a small island off the coast of Maine. We had to bring all our garbage back with us on the passenger ferry, since any garbage would remain on the island forever. Can you imagine if each tourist had to bring their garbage home after their visit? In any case, I think we need to discuss the special realities of an island environment for residents and tourists. Haiti does share the same island. Dominican forests are disappearing. The coral is dying. We are subsidizing the travel industry with our lands, mangroves and oceans. They will leave us and find another island. We'll be stuck with the garbage. BTW, I'd appreciate it if we can avoid personal attacks on this thread and stick to the issues.
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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Gabby Baby.

It is that same Tourist industry that is subsidizing enviromental protection. Every time a Hotel goes up on a beach that is one more beach that will be protected and a reef offshore that won't be fished out. The Tourist industry is behind most of the Portection of the Natural resources of the DR. Makes sense $
What is it that you want? No development at all? It is Developed Nations that can spend money on enviromental issues. Poor countries are to busy trying to get by.
 

Robert

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It's usually the change in the market (tourists awareness) that drives tourism related businesses to become more environmentally aware. It's the old chicken before the egg situation.

Do you build an ecco friendly resort to attract a particular type of tourist, or do you adapt to try and attract that type of tourist?

To increase the US$ yield per tourist, the ecco component is a very important part of the equation, but also expensive to implement.

To make tourism sustainable in the DR they will all need to do more. Tourists are becoming more aware and the environment is slowly becoming part of the decision making process for tourists.

At the current rate of growth the DR cannot sustain tourism and many ecco related issues will become a problem. What?s worse is that the growth rate is likely to increase a lot more, that makes the situation even worse.

Tourism is the future of the Dominican Republic, but is the Dominican Republic able to see the future?

I?m happy to say that some people very close to DR1 are working hard to get the message across. Unfortunately it needs to involve effort from everyone, proprieties, government and people...
 

Narcosis

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I agree Robert that Tourism is the future of the country no doubt.

It is already the largest industry in the world and is expected to keep growing as transportation between countries increases and becomes more inexpensive, and faster.

It is also been noted in many studies that the things tourists worldwide look for when on vacation are: Good Weather, beaches, fun activities, culture, among others.

The D.R. has them all, but to be sustainable we need to protect these assets namely the ones we tend to have a negative effect on (At least we know the sunshine will never fade,lol)

I don't agree with Gabriela that they will "look for another island sindrome".

That is a fatalist outlook on a very positive industry. We need to look for niche markets and specialize in those areas of tourism.

Case in point: We need to focus on our history. No one will be able to claim that Santo Domingo is not the oldest city in the new world, just as no one can argue the Louvre is not in Paris, Sagrada Familia not in Barcelona or the Grand place is not in Brussels.

We can also identify eco-activities that are $$ producers (my favorite being scuba diving) and learn how to incorporate it in the portafolio of activities in a way we can compete with other diving destinations.

We need to identify what makes us different and protect and "exploit" those things. Protecting the enviroment is part of basic issues any country in the world should do not just because they need it for tourism.
 

Gabriela

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Dec 4, 2003
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Keith?

We're generating a variety of opinions, but haven't really addressed the unique problems (or strengths) of Hispanola as an island. Can you guide us here?
 

Quisqueya

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Nov 10, 2003
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Hispaniola has always been divided..for economic purposes

Gabriela said:
We're generating a variety of opinions, but haven't really addressed the unique problems (or strengths) of Hispanola as an island. Can you guide us here?


Well, let me put my 2cents in here. Hispaniola has always been divided since the beginning when the french pirates landed in Ile de la Tortue and then made there way to the main land. The frenchmen and the spaniards were always at war with each other because as space became sarce and population grew the french were taking more territory from the spaniards and eventually became Saint Domingue, Hispaniola and Santo Domingo, Hisp. I'm not going to get into the slave revolt because I hope everyone knows that the slaves drove the french out and later the spanish....

Now Gabby,

To answer your question or an attempt to answer ur ? both former colonizer had different influences on their former properties(slaves) thus lead the slaves on each side to relate with their masters customs and languages. Obviously the western half invented a language mixture of african dialects, arawak and taino indians,english, spanish and of course the base was french.(Beautiful Kreyol)
The eastern side to some extent form a sort of dialect form the Cervantes which also had the same mixture of languages as I mentioned above(dominican spanish). I mentioned all of the above because that's what shaped the mind and the opinions of the now former slaves we call Haitians and dominicans. Basically, we have of course alot in common but obviously have differences because of those barriers and mis-education. Due to our history we kept the ball rolling and kept the on going struggle of our colonizers fighting for space and trying to keep their respective identities.

Would unity be best for the island (yes) but for the people I would have to say (no). Due to the globalization that Big frere is imposing on L. America and the world eventually the former colonizers and the Big hermano will benefit by uniting the island but not the former slaves and maximize their profit by exploiting the population thru divide and conquer and can be seen at its best on the island. Par exemple, look at Saint Martin and St. Marteen(French and Dutch properties) you never hear them distinguishing themselves as if they were from another planet like haitians and dominicans do. although they have differences in language and culture. They weren't brain washed to think they were french nor dutch but just former slaves coping with their masters laws and government.

I hope that gives u an overstanding of the situation of Hispaniola...

a plus tard....better yet a pis tad
 

Gabriela

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Dec 4, 2003
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Good points

What I'm driving at is not political unification of the island. What I'd like to see is for both Haitians and Dominicans to accept that they share an island. When the forests are gone, the soil will wash to the sea. When the coral is dead, the snorklers will go elsewhere. The Haitians have already won the race to destroy their forests. Can't we learn from their mistakes?
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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Gabriela said:
What I'm driving at is not political unification of the island. What I'd like to see is for both Haitians and Dominicans to accept that they share an island. When the forests are gone, the soil will wash to the sea. When the coral is dead, the snorklers will go elsewhere. The Haitians have already won the race to destroy their forests. Can't we learn from their mistakes?

Deforrestation and its direct effects(Erosion, silt..ect) are related to a lack of economic oppourtunity which is related to too much gov. interference. Adopt free market economics. Privatize utilities. Cut taxes. Then people will think about not having to cut down a tree to cook dinner
 

Robert

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Gabriela said:
What I'm driving at is not political unification of the island. What I'd like to see is for both Haitians and Dominicans to accept that they share an island. When the forests are gone, the soil will wash to the sea. When the coral is dead, the snorklers will go elsewhere. The Haitians have already won the race to destroy their forests. Can't we learn from their mistakes?

That sounds all very nice and dandy, but it's not todays reality. We live in the Dominican Republic, not some Utopia state in a far away land.

If you want to save the beaches, trees and the environment in general, then you better start with the most basic flaws the exist in the majority of the population in the DR.
Trash, out of sight out of mind. How often have you seen people throw it out the car window or dump it down the side of the hill. Any place they don't have to look at it.

You need to start with educating people from a very early age, children. This educating is only going to come from the people, as the governments or local authorities couldn't careless unless they can politicize it or make money from it. So as you can see, if it's down to the people, you have a long hard road ahead of you.

The reality is, the majority of Dominicans are not going to do it, of course some are trying very hard to effect change, but they are fighting a loosing battle.
Change is going to come from the outside. It's going to be tourism that will drive environmental change in the Dominican Republic.
When they demand a more environmentally aware resort or country to visit. Then you will see tourism related business work to accommodate them. It's already happening, yes it's slow, but it's happening. Slowly that change will have a trickle down or positive effect on the general population.

I could go on and on.... :)
 

Gabriela

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Robert said:
That sounds all very nice and dandy, but it's not todays reality. We live in the Dominican Republic, not some Utopia state in a far away land.

If you want to save the beaches, trees and the environment in general, then you better start with the most basic flaws the exist in the majority of the population in the DR.
Trash, out of sight out of mind. How often have you seen people throw it out the car window or dump it down the side of the hill. Any place they don't have to look at it.

You need to start with educating people from a very early age, children. This educating is only going to come from the people, as the governments or local authorities couldn't careless unless they can politicize it or make money from it. So as you can see, if it's down to the people, you have a long hard road ahead of you.

The reality is, the majority of Dominicans are not going to do it, of course some are trying very hard to effect change, but they are fighting a loosing battle.
Change is going to come from the outside. It's going to be tourism that will drive environmental change in the Dominican Republic.
When they demand a more environmentally aware resort or country to visit. Then you will see tourism related business work to accommodate them. It's already happening, yes it's slow, but it's happening. Slowly that change will have a trickle down or positive effect on the general population.

I could go on and on.... :)

I wish you were right, Robert, but I see the opposite happening. Economically, all inclusives are the most profitable. So the AI builders bulldoze down ancient growth and replace it with 200+ room complexes. The beach is polluted? Build a pool. And I've been reading about Santo Domingo on the other forum. All the cultural tourism in the world isn't going to make up for the pollution in that city. We've sold our souls and our land to the Tourism Gods. You are right about education being needed. I just believe it is possible. I've talked with young Dominicans in university. Yes, they are idealistic. And that's wonderful.
And they are learning from our mistakes. They just have no power...yet.
 

Narcosis

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Where are the experts?

What point are you getting at Gabriela?

Do you think tourism (even the "evil" AI tourism) is worse than idustrial growth for the country? Please, I'm no expert but I would rather the DR looking more like the island of Mallorca than the island of Taiwan with it's chemical industries etc.

The other option is do nothing and stagnate like our neighbor.

Please convey your point. Education is needed badly yes, but to say tourism is bad, IMHO is about as far off a solution for this country as you can get.
 

mountainfrog

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Semana Santa Foreshadowing

Pretty soon the country?s most scenic parts again will suffer from the semana santa impact.
It?s not the tourists, however, that spoil the beaches with tons of bottles, plastic bags full of rubbish and styrofoam containers.
But the task of cleaning the beaches is left to the hotels because they know how their clientel feel about the environment.
Normally tourists care much more about the environment than the locals who benefit from them.
 

Gabriela

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Narcosis said:
What point are you getting at Gabriela?

Do you think tourism (even the "evil" AI tourism) is worse than idustrial growth for the country? Please, I'm no expert but I would rather the DR looking more like the island of Mallorca than the island of Taiwan with it's chemical industries etc.

The other option is do nothing and stagnate like our neighbor.

Please convey your point. Education is needed badly yes, but to say tourism is bad, IMHO is about as far off a solution for this country as you can get.

Industrial growth, no. But the DR has one of the most advanced technological infrastructures in the Caribbean. Cell phones, high speed internet, cable, satellite. There are knowledge based industries that don't pollute. We're using one now. Tourism is like a one crop agriculture. One more serious earthquake, one more impossible government. One coup or general strike, and tourists go elsewhere. Plus the U.S. dollars aren't staying in the DR. It's being sucked dry.And in the struggle for survival, the hotels will get larger, and the beaches smaller. And the trees....potted palms. Just like Miami Beach. Of course the casino money will flow out of the country. I'm not angry. Just sad. I remember the North Coast in 1976--how splendid it was. How prosperous. I remember when my Dominican cousins could maintain an middle class lifestyle. All that is going up, not just in smoke, but also in pina coladas. If the DR has to rely on a single product, let it be Presidente
;)
 

Narcosis

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Semana Santa

Mfrog.

Have you ever seen Daytona beach or Myrtle Beach during or after Spring Break? If it was not for the level of law enforcement those places would look just as bad or worse than any beach here in SS. I agree it is a problem, but it comes with the territory and we need to learn how to deal with it wisely.

Gabby:

I agree that the Internet is a niche we need to dive into. Leonel Fernandez understands this and has made great efforts to increase it.

mentioning crops, I believe in turning away from traditional crops such as rice and expanding into organic agriculture of fruit trees such as Mangos, avacatoes, tamrindo as well as bee farming etc. look for ways that campesinos can make $$ off of small plots their own land instead of working as farm hands on huge plantations.

As far as casinos, I feel they are very positive, not only is it another niche we can offer tourists but it generates more jobs, tax revenue and not all operators are foreign so much of the profits stay here.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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Tourism is vulnerable, as Gabriella says. More so when it is dominated by the AI model, which attracts the most fickle type of tourist. Most people on those charter planes hardly know where they are going to. All they know is that they got a good deal, and that it's in the Caribbean. If another destination can offer better prices, that's where they will go on their next holiday. There is a place for AIs, but the sector as a whole should be more diversified, in order to attract repeat custom. The DR is addressing this, as far as I can see. There is a more upmarket tourist sector, and some early forays into attracting independent travellers, ecotourists, whatever you want to call them.

A big problem is that most of the money goes out of the country (in the case of the large chains) or into foreigners' pockets (in the case of the smaller scale independent operators) because they are the ones who know what the tourists want. I always remember a "good" hotel we stayed at in Jarabacoa, which was Dominican-owned and run. They had spent a lot of money on lavish upholstery and heavy curtains, to give the place an air of elegance I suppose. Although it was new and fitted with smart bathrooms, it lost a lot of points on the cleanliness front. A foreigner designing a hotel would have decorated it in a simple, rural style, using local crafts and not pretentious pseudo-luxurious furnishings. It would have been spotlessly clean.

From what I can tell, the tourism industry as a whole is aware of the long term need to preserve the environment, otherwise the DR's main tourism asset, its natural beauty, will be lost and with it the tourist industry. However, there will always be scope for unscrupulous politicians to 'sell off' natural treasures, as has happened with Bahia de las Aguilas, Parque Nacional del Este, Samana and the constant threat looming over Playa Rincon.

Chiri
 

Robert

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Gabriela said:
Industrial growth, no. But the DR has one of the most advanced technological infrastructures in the Caribbean. Cell phones, high speed internet, cable, satellite. There are knowledge based industries that don't pollute. We're using one now. Tourism is like a one crop agriculture. One more serious earthquake, one more impossible government. One coup or general strike, and tourists go elsewhere. Plus the U.S. dollars aren't staying in the DR. It's being sucked dry.And in the struggle for survival, the hotels will get larger, and the beaches smaller. And the trees....potted palms. Just like Miami Beach. Of course the casino money will flow out of the country. I'm not angry. Just sad. I remember the North Coast in 1976--how splendid it was. How prosperous. I remember when my Dominican cousins could maintain an middle class lifestyle. All that is going up, not just in smoke, but also in pina coladas. If the DR has to rely on a single product, let it be Presidente
;)

Welcome to the world we live in. I used to remember when you could buy 2 chewy "Black Jacks" for 1 penny. So what? The past is just that, the past.

The Dominican Republic will not survive without tourism.
The future of this country is tourism. The largest source of jobs and income right now is tourism. It just needs to be managed and by people that have an interest in managing it right.

This country has an amazing opportunity to be an amazing destination, they just need to keep the politicians and theorists out of the decision making process. As I and others have stated, this change will come from outside influences, not from within the Dominican Republic. The sad fact is, if you could take Dominicans out of some of the more important tourism related decisions, you would stand a much better chance of building a sustainable, culturally balanced tourism based nation.

By the way....

AI's are not the most profitable. Their US$ yield per client is shrinking.
They have to change their product to suit market demands, those demands are not the current AI model that many hotels have "survived" on for years here. Some hotels are changing, others are just eating more into the US$ yield in order to survive. Right now hotels are having a good time, but can they sustain it?
 

XanaduRanch

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The Bottom Line ...

... that everbody keeps dancing around here is that it requires money to have the ability to pay for cleanups, water reclamation, garbage disposals,land fills, etc. Money! When you're poor and that $3000 pesos you have in hand for the month can either go for milk and pampers for the kids, or proper disposal of the milk cans and dirty pampers, what do you think most folks would choose to pay for?

Tourism generates bling. Period. Tourism won't survive without a beautiful clean place for the tourists to visit. So economically the only way for tourism and the dollars it brings here to survive, is to use some of that money toprotect and preserve what generates it. Despite what some people think of business and corporations, they exist to make money, and will spend what's necessary to make sure the revenue keeps coming in. Without disposable income to address the problem, this is a pointless discussion.

Why that's so hard to understand for some is a mystery to me. But whether you disagree or not, it not only works, it's the only solution. Money, baby.

Tom aka XR Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease to be amused.
 

Robert

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XanaduRanch said:
... that everbody keeps dancing around here is that it requires money to have the ability to pay for cleanups, water reclamation, garbage disposals,land fills, etc. Money! When you're poor and that $3000 pesos you have in hand for the month can either go for milk and pampers for the kids, or proper disposal of the milk cans and dirty pampers, what do you think most folks would choose to pay for?

Tourism generates bling. Period. Tourism won't survive without a beautiful clean place for the tourists to visit. So economically the only way for tourism and the dollars it brings here to survive, is to use some of that money toprotect and preserve what generates it. Despite what some people think of business and corporations, they exist to make money, and will spend what's necessary to make sure the revenue keeps coming in. Without disposable income to address the problem, this is a pointless discussion.

Why that's so hard to understand for some is a mystery to me. But whether you disagree or not, it not only works, it's the only solution. Money, baby.

Tom aka XR Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease to be amused.

I agree with you 100%. No money, no solution.
I think most of us are aware of that formula.

I guess it's more about who is responsible for turning the above forumla upside down?
The how, when and if.... Plus how much of a role does the enviroment play in all of this?
 

jsizemore

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Aug 6, 2003
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Money is the only solution

Look what it takes in the US to keep people from littering. $1500 fine. And it still is not enough. I looked at plastic recycling equipment and it would be around $250,000 just to get the equipment. It would take some kind of contract to sell the products to make it viable.
Now in a world where water is not always on, then pampers are a must. Where electricity is a problem then everything is bought in a disposable fashion. So without the basic infrastructure to keep things moving it is not feasable for the average poor Dominican to live the green life. For Petes sakes they cant even trust the water to wash dishes. They cant count on the LP to heat the water. They cant depend on Luz for refridgeration and they cant depend on Gas Oil for a planta if they could afford it in the first place.
The irony is the very thing that is needed for the tourism industry will help the envirmental industry also. Infrastructure will help reduce the problem without extra money directly pointed at it. Then extra money will be made from tourism and more money can be spent on the enviroment. self feeding cycle.
John
 
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Tordok

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Oct 6, 2003
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In the late Jacques Cousteau?s documentary Haiti:Waters of Sorrow (1977), the oceanographer was in shock to find such an advanced degree of ecological devastation in Haitian waters and land.

Ecotourists should fly over the border, and look west to know what not to do. Or ride in a mule and try to find mangoes in Haiti. Haiti has reached a level of unsustainable development. The only place to move is east. The DR faces the same fate if it doesn't take prompt action. it must seek help from the UN, Bill Gates, the EU, Japan, whoever has dinero to help Haiti recover its natural resources. Haiti cannot flourish without water to sustain agriculture, people, hotels, industries, government. Dessertification is advancing in many parts of Haiti. Both governments on the island share the huge responsibility of fixing-up damaged ecosystems throughout the entire island. At present, and in the foreseeable future, neither seems prepared to deal with a problem so vital and of such a magnitude. This should matter to everyone: citizens, investors, workers, politicians, and the international community ought to care about sustainable development on a Hispaniola island that houses close to 15million souls.

-Tordok