H, the not so silent letter...

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El_Uruguayo

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Not that I need any help with my pronunciation, I am just curious as to why many Dominicans pronounce the H - it is supposed to be silent. The best example I can think of is Haina, pronounced "jaina", but also hartura, harto, hot dog, hamberger, Heidy (pronounced Heydy), . Theres a few other words, but can't seem to remember them now. Is there any particular reason for this? Perhaps american influence? Is the correct pronunciation Aina or "haina"?

Now that I think of it, the J is often pronounced the same way as it is english or if not as a Y, mainly in names. Obvious names like Jennifer, ok, but Julissa, ect. Again must be from foreign influence, right?
 

Chirimoya

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Hamaca, which for some reason appears in a banner ad on this site as sometimes pronounced - "jamaca"...

I'm sure I've heard 'harto' pronounced as 'jarto' in Spain too.
 

Chip

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There are a lot of non English origin words that the h is produced, such as halar, hallar etc. Nonetheless, I understand the aspiration of the H is an amercianized trait.

As far as the names go, one shouldn't infer that grammar rules used for names will apply to normal words, they don't. Many Dominicans love odd names that don't sound like they read.
 

El_Uruguayo

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Odd names like Julisleidina - Ok, I just made that one up, but I'm sure someone could find it a lovely name for their child.
 

nikke

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I have noticed that the H is usually silent except for in some English-language words like hamburger and hot dog, but then when a Dominican is really annoyed or they want to make an emphasis the H comes out in harto or hablador...would that make sense?
 

Marianopolita

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El_Uruguayo

You asked a good question, however, the responses thus far don't provide much insight to your query and are speculative.


It's just another example of a speech pattern typical of the Dominican vernacular and has nothing to do with American influence but rather education because many of the words are not English words, borrowed words, or false cognates etc. that may lend itself to justifying the mispronunciation. Simple as it is it goes back to education and the traditional difficulties that many Dominicans and some Spanish speakers of a lesser base level education (and even many educated speakers also) have with certain letters specifically /j/ vs./ /g/, /c/ vs. /s/, vs. /z/, and the silent /h/ which is written but should not be pronounced. No exceptions exist in Spanish orthography or phonetics. What one sees written and heard pronounced in the DR that go against the rules are regionalisms. For example, the Dominican meaning of 'jablador' (spelt with a 'j') vs. the standard meaning of 'hablador'. I think the spelling of it with a /j/ is an example of the incorrect usage regardless what the regional meaning may be. When speakers don't understand basic orthographic rules the result is many illogical misspellings and pronunciation. 'Jablador' is not even registered in the RAE.


You may want to look into the sociolinguistic research done on these linguistic variations which include spelling and pronunciation as it relates to a speech population. The best one of I have read thus far on Dominican speech is the one by Grupo Le?n Jimenes, C?mo hablamos los dominicanos which was referenced in this forum many times. It's a detailed sociolinguistic compendium of Spanish spoken in the DR. If you really want to get a good understanding of the where, when, how and why, consider reading the book. As well, you always have to remember the education and socio-economic level of the speaker. If you have an opinion or concpet in your mind how the 'average' Dominican speaker speaks and writes then this concept of the silent /h/ being pronounced should not be a surprise to you. As all linguists, grammarians, educators etc. would say these irregular and regional speech patterns should not be duplicated by foreigners or other Spanish speakers outside of the Dominican vernacular. Good observation yes, but not to be repeated. In general, when foreigners or second language speakers start to imitate incorrect Dominican speech patterns, it's just an open door for criticism and/ or ridicule.

Linguist John Lipski has also done plenty of research on Latin American Spanish- Cuba, the DR and PR have been researched. You may want to look into some of his scholarly data.

C?mo hablamos los dominicanos is available online in a PDF format. It's well-complied and very informative.

2j639rq.jpg


Grupo Len Jimenes | Biblioteca virtual | Cmo hablamos los dominicanos


Here is the summary:

Seg?n su autor, Orlando Alba, el prop?sito central de este libro es ofrecer algunas ideas sobre la identidad de la atractiva modalidad ling??stica hisp?nica que se habla en la Rep?blica Dominicana, con la esperanza de que el lector obtenga una visi?n de conjunto del habla del pa?s desde una perspectiva socioling??stica. Podr?a decirse que el objetivo final consiste en responder de forma sencilla unas preguntas que muchos, callada o expresamente, se han hecho alguna vez: ?Existe un espa?ol, o un modo de hablar el espa?ol, t?picamente dominicano? ?Es la lengua hablada en el pa?s exactamente la misma que se habla en otros pa?ses hisp?nicos o tiene unas caracter?sticas peculiares que la distinguen? O, formulando la cuesti?n de manera m?s directa, ?c?mo hablamos los dominicanos?.


-Marianopolita
 
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Chip

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I'm not sure lack of education is the real cause of the h's being aspirated - as if this were the case I think one should see this trait in other countries where education is poor.

From researching some of previous threads, I'm inclined to believe there are other influences. For example, the pronunciation of the h is a feature of Andalusion Spansish according to our distinguished Chirimoya and according to a not so distinguished ex DR1'er it is a leftover trait from the Tainos.
 

Chirimoya

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People are being nice today - distinguished, no less :)

Yes, the 'j' for 'h' sound is used in the south of Spain, maybe other areas as well, and in exactly the same way as in the DR - by less educated folks and for emphasis. "!Estoy JARTA de limpiar!"

And can anyone explain why 'jamaca' and not 'hamaca" in the banner ad?

RAE said:
La palabra jamaca no est? registrada en el Diccionario.
 

Marianopolita

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jamaca vs. hamaca (correct spelling)

The answer is really very simple however, am I distinguished enough to respond. ;)

I can also see some linguistic drift as 'jamaca' is also used in Puerto Rico. The question is which way is the flow. PR -----> DR or DR -----> PR. Historical linguistic patterns usually show drift from PR to DR when vocabulary is shared. Hint: understand the origin of hamaca and go from there + the sociolinguistic components of speech diversity.


-Marianopolita
 

Hillbilly

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In many old texts it is Jaina.

To give emphasis, people say Jarto. They know it should be "(h)arto"

Similarly for other examples.

As for jamaca vs hamaca...don't know enough about Spanish pronunciations.
My father, a Guatamalteco, would say guevos rather than huevos...and here that is usually a pretty bad word.

HB
 

La Mariposa

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In many old texts it is Jaina.

To give emphasis, people say Jarto. They know it should be "(h)arto"

Similarly for other examples.

As for jamaca vs hamaca...don't know enough about Spanish pronunciations.
My father, a Guatamalteco, would say guevos rather than huevos...and here that is usually a pretty bad word.

HB

Bueno......... but they say that los huevos sont buenos para el guevo, no??
 

El_Uruguayo

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In many old texts it is Jaina.

To give emphasis, people say Jarto. They know it should be "(h)arto"

Similarly for other examples.

As for jamaca vs hamaca...don't know enough about Spanish pronunciations.
My father, a Guatamalteco, would say guevos rather than huevos...and here that is usually a pretty bad word.

HB



Interesting. If it was Jaina in old texts, why would it be changed to Haina? Being an indigenous word is irrelevant, as indiginous words wouldnt be subject to the spanish alphabet, until translate phoenetically.

As for harto and hablador, I can coun't the times I've heard them pronounced "arto" or "ablador" on 1 hand. Maybe these words are always emphasized? (now that I think of, most instances these words were heavily emphasized - either after a big meal, in the case of hablador - someone talking serious BS)

Just a curious observation. I'll check out the text when I have some time.
 

M.A.R.

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Bueno......... but they say that los huevos sont buenos para el guevo, no??

Mira muchacha!!!! :laugh::laugh:

other words........hediendo - jediondo
hablador - jablador

hablador - una persona k habla mucho but if you say jablador, i think it means you are a 'chismoso' de primera.
 

El_Uruguayo

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Hablador is more like calling someone out as a liar or a BSer. Or can be yoused as reproach, like Que hablador!?!? as in "you $hitin me?"
 

dv8

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would say guevos rather than huevos...and here that is usually a pretty bad word.

i thought it was guebo not guevo?

in any case, i do not understand this lack of consistency beacuse dominicans will say hamburger/hotdog but onda - not honda. and all those words are borrowed from other languages...
 

Marianopolita

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The need for an aspirated /h/ sound in Spanish ...

Does anyone else see the inconsistencies? They continue to validate the many questions about the Dominican vernacular that surface time and time again. Speculation just does not hold water in these examples. For those learning Spanish, be careful with these regionalisms and local orthographic spelling of words.

1/ * the /h/ from some indigenous words are spelt with /j/ in many cases. An example from the thread is hamaca ----> jamaca.

2/ * there are two spellings in the DR and meanings of hablador, one which is the standard and the regional version, jablador with its own meaning.

3/ * In the Puerto Rican vernacular 'janguear' the verb and the noun 'el jangueo' was invented from the English word/ verb 'to hang out'. Here the key factor is the /h/ in English which is phonetically pronounced needs a phonetic equivalent in Spanish which is /j/ or a soft /g/ as in the word 'general' in Spanish.

How do examples 1 and 2 relate to 3? + why the (need for) the pronunciation of an aspirated /h/ sound by some Spanish speakers. In the Caribbean one will observe this phenomenon in Puerto Rico and the DR but what about Cuba? and does anyone think the average Cuban would write any of the above mentioned words with a /j/?

- these changes in spelling from the standard obviously have more than a few people questioning the logic which in itself shows that local variations in spelling and pronunciation are problematic.

- For those who justify the regional spelling, how do educators teach these variations in the classroom and what rules of orthography are given to explain to the student that hablador is the correct spelling but 'jablador' is the way it's spelt in the DR. Since when is Spanish as a language taught at a local level with local variations?

There is an answer for the phonetic and spelling changes and who knows if these word variations will ever appear in the RAE because the approval process is extensive however, on a local level people could put whatever they want in print.

....
in any case, i do not understand this lack of consistency beacuse dominicans will say hamburger/hotdog but onda - not honda. and all those words are borrowed from other languages...

Speakers will not say 'onda' with a pronounced /h/ because the word itself in correct spelling does not have an /h/. Focus on words both indigenous and borrowed that have a pronounced /h/ sound + the need for an aspirated /h/ when some speakers speak and you will be on your way to understanding the concept.


...and yes, I am being purposely evasive to get people to think about what they post.


-Marianopolita
 
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El_Uruguayo

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You obviously have a comprehension of the issue beyond my own. I never realized that the spelling was changed on some words - I usually don't see them written. However if I do a search on hangueo and jangeuo i will get results for both, as well as jabladoraso and habladoraso (these examples because they will generally apply to the overall concept, where hablador is a much more generalised term) and will yield results aswell. I didnt think there would be a need for a different spelling, because its not a new word really, its adding a connotation to the word, and not really changing its root meaning. Is there a verb jablar?

As for not using the regionalisms, I agree for the most part. No matter how confident you are in your spanish, these things can find a way of entrenching themselves in the way you speak, and can be really hard to shake off. But, there is some benefit in throwing in regionalism from time to time as it can add to your street cred, which is important for a foreigner - showing you have a little tigueraje can earn respect. hehe. Like using the "l", or "i" on occasion, or throwing in regional words or expressions "klk tigre, dimelo a ver.." Now that's out there, don't get me started on the spelling of "tiguere" again, why alternate spelling??
 
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