Middle Class in DR

[Chip]

Yes, I would like to meet a lot of these upper middle class folks who have achieved everything they have without one red cent coming from the States

SHALENA

I have met plenty of Dominicans that are considered middle class that have not been funded by abroad. Many are professionals such as doctors, engineers and whatnot.

In fact there are many businesses that I've seen where the margins are quite high compared to the States(ie construction) and this is due to no doubt to lack of competition which is partly due to the inability of access to anything but cut throat rate credit. Also, another influence that keeps the competition thin is the cultural phenomenon of "imploding" a business whereby after someone makes it big they generally forget what got them there in the first place (product/customer) and rather use their earnings to increases their personal wealth, or in some instances blow it all on wine, women and song.

I have many examples, from a fellow in Moca who started a few colmados from scratch, to two brothers who built up a supermecado close to my house, to an engineer at Mera, Mu?oz y Fondeur, to a friend who started a small copy business and now has a business en Los Jardines, to HB's son's who started a thriving business by selling pumps and electrical supplies.

 

[NotLurking]

You see more getting off a "concho" than getting off a SUV.

The same could be said of many countries around the world. For example, in NYC you'll see more people getting off public transport than private vehicles. Your point being?

A challenge was posted by Pichardo and I'll post a challenge of my own. Walking, driving or bicycling around the DR, tell me if you see more wealth or poverty. The answer is quite obvious.

Indeed. If you walk Guachupita, Gualei or Guandules you would get the impression that the DR is worst than Haiti but if you walk Piantini, Evaristo Morales or Los Cacicazgos you'd think your not in DR. The problem with this friendly debate is that when the doomsday clan claim everything is coming to an end in DR they use statistics and data provided by government and everything is peachy. However when the rosy clan claim everything is good based on data from the same source the data is suspected of being corrupt.

Neither myself nor Gorgon are refuting that there is wealth nor a middle class. I believe that we both agree that the middle and upper classes are not as large as asserted nor are they as wealthy as asserted.

I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that their is a middle class. I would dare say that two thirds (2/3 ) of anything is a significant amount. I think you would agree that 67% (~2/3) is of some value. According to the most recent data 67% of the population does not meet the criteria of being poor. If 67% are not labeled poor then what can we label them? ...middle class? nah.... :speechles:bunny::bunny:

NotLurking

 

[the gorgon]

i will recant my decision to recuse myself from this thread, if only to address this

I'm glad that you at least acknowledge that their is a middle class. I would dare say that two thirds (2/3 ) of anything is a significant amount. I think you would agree that 67% (~2/3) is of some value. According to the most recent data 67% of the population does not meet the criteria of being poor. If 67% are not labeled poor then what can we label them? ...middle class? nah....


first of all, the guys who did this survey did not define what poverty is, so it is a useless statistic. it is like saying that 21% of Dominicans can run fast, without defining the speed necessary to be considered fast. besides, not because 35% live below the poverty line, that means 65% are not poor. it is a CONTINUUM. which means there is a gap between the people below the poverty line, and those who are DEFINED as being middle class. so, there are, as i said before, people right at the poverty line. there are people just above it. there is an entire expanse between poverty line and middle class. it is not some simple quantum leap from one to the next. my contention, from what i have observed in 20 something years, is that the preponderant majority fall somewhere between the poverty line and the middle class. that is normal for numerous third world countries.

 

[NotLurking]

first of all, the guys who did this survey did not define what poverty is, so it is a useless statistic.

The same definition of poverty was used when you said:

the recent stats show 42% to live below the poverty line.

Not doubt a useless statistic by your own admission. You now won't accept the same definition for poverty you accepted when you made the above comment. What changed? You didn't question the standard used to determine poverty when you used the stats to corroborated your assertions. Double standard?

it is like saying that 21% of Dominicans can run fast, without defining the speed necessary to be considered fast.

Again, its the same coin with two sides. The key here is that it is the same coin, hence the same standards apply. If the data was golden when you cited the statistic with out nit picking the definition of poverty, why bring it up now? Whether two horse and a cow or five cats and a dog were used for the definition of poor makes no difference as long as poor was defined exactly the same for both reports. Now the data doesn't fit your argument so the data is bad. Corrupt data? ...umm sounds familiar.

besides, not because 35% live below the poverty line, that means 65% are not poor. it is a CONTINUUM.
which means there is a gap between the people below the poverty line, and those who are DEFINED as being middle class.

You lost me here. A continuum by definition has no gaps.

1 : a coherent whole characterized as a collection, sequence, or progression of values or elements varying by minute degrees <“good” and “bad”…stand at opposite ends of a continuum instead of describing the two halves of a line — Wayne Shumaker>
Continuum - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Perhaps instead of gap you meant 'a segment'?

so, there are, as i said before, people right at the poverty line. there are people just above it. there is an entire expanse between poverty line and middle class. it is not some simple quantum leap from one to the next.

Finally something we can agree on! Where we butt heads is exactly on the very thing we agree on, strange. You see, I see a tad bit more middle class than you do. The striation or distribution of the segment between the defining point of poor & middle class is the heart of our friendly disagreement.

my contention, from what i have observed in 20 something years, is that the preponderant majority fall somewhere between the poverty line and the middle class. that is normal for numerous third world countries.

Fair enough and I respect you for sharing this honest point of view. I, however, see it a tad different and it is the reason you and I go at it... cheers old boy.

Respectfully,
NotLurking

 

[bachata]

Those who educate themselves and work hard!!!!!

Of Course if you only drink in a "Colmado", hang out with "Chopos' the whole day, and don't bother to even finish high school, you will have a hard time trying make ends meet.

Ezequiel, then tell me why so many Dominican professionals driving taxi in New York???

Then, tell me what are you doing in Atlanta if you graduated in UTESA, you should be living the way you said above in your country???

JJ

 

[Chip]

What I find disconcerting is the amount of exaggeration on this thread, from Pichardo and others of the PDSDA (Professional Spin Doctor's Assoc. also known colloquially as the "comesolos") stating that the DR is the leading economy of LA and soon on it's way overtaking the US in economic terms while the genius that started it all, Leonel, takes the reigns of the UN and fixes the global crisis to those weekend warrior expats who think that every Dominican lives in a tin roofed shack, has a moto and drinks beer and plays Dominos for a living.

The DR is a poor country and has a middle class which is nothing percentage wise compared to the US or Europe and maybe not even up to par to a lot of other LA countries but it still has one and they are significant because the comprise a large percentage of the business owner and professionals in this country - which contrary to popular belief they didn't all emigrate to the US via yola.

 

[PICHARDO]

Pichardo are you renting a house owned by a Dominican York as 80% of Dominican professionals does???

Quien trabajando alla junta millones pa' comprar na'!!!

hahaha

JJ

I made my net worth in the DR, not the USA! In fact my first large investment in the USA was funded with revenues from our biz in the DR!! It took about 6 months to clear all the red tape to move the funds there, but we did it!

After that initial move of funds, we used the capital equity of the biz to open LOCs in the USA, and never again had to use DR revenues to back up any biz in the USA since.

 

[PICHARDO]

Wait one rotten stinking fish minute. I remember you refuting some of my assertions on the RECESSION thread where you stated you worked for the US State Dept. as a senior official or some malarky thereof. Now, you are a thoroughly made in the DR production. Which is it Pichardo???

You made it solely in the DR or you worked in the states to have what you have? Something smells pretty rotten here?! Come clean ma man!!! Come clean paisano!!

Quote me on that one please!

I worked with contractors and subcontractors for the USA military and agencies of 12 other nations...

That was part of my work! Not part of who I'm as a Dominican first and foremost!

 

[PICHARDO]

Yes, I would like to meet a lot of these upper middle class folks who have achieved everything they have without one red cent coming from the States

SHALENA

About 99% of the social circle I move in as middle class in the DR did and that includes me as well!

 

[PICHARDO]

Ezequiel, then tell me why so many Dominican professionals driving taxi in New York???

Then, tell me what are you doing in Atlanta if you graduated in UTESA, you should be living the way you said above in your country???

JJ

Why so many expats doodling in mini bars, colmados and what now from developed/rich/middle class nations in the DR?
Why a gringo selling eskimay in the streets of the DR?

Each road taken details what's to be the end or at least the things they must do to make it!

Bachata, you seem to think that every professional in the DR is seeking los paises due to their economic woes in the DR, which is false and beyond the reality of the country!

 

[PICHARDO]

What I find disconcerting is the amount of exaggeration on this thread, from Pichardo and others of the PDSDA (Professional Spin Doctor's Assoc. also known colloquially as the "comesolos") stating that the DR is the leading economy of LA and soon on it's way overtaking the US in economic terms while the genius that started it all, Leonel, takes the reigns of the UN and fixes the global crisis to those weekend warrior expats who think that every Dominican lives in a tin roofed shack, has a moto and drinks beer and plays Dominos for a living.

The DR is a poor country and has a middle class which is nothing percentage wise compared to the US or Europe and maybe not even up to par to a lot of other LA countries but it still has one and they are significant because the comprise a large percentage of the business owner and professionals in this country - which contrary to popular belief they didn't all emigrate to the US via yola. :)

Ah yes! That's why the Dominican people are one of the leading groups of "Legal" residents in the USA, not? That's from the US of A own's home land security database! Just in case you wanted to know...

 

[PICHARDO]

But again all talk and zero action!

SHOW the head count for all the areas of the city of SANTIAGO with the details as to income average here!

Show and tell!

 

[amparocorp]

i've got a close friend who is a lawyer in NY city. he' paid quite well, six figures. he's paying a mortgage on a 1.2 million dollar house in scarsdale, just north of the city. i could live off of what he pays in property taxes, he also pays NYC income tax, NY state income tax and federal income taxes. he's paying monthly for his mercedes and his wife's audi, plus crazy auto insurance. he pays 400$ a month for his parking spot, midtown manhattan, close to the office. he needs to have ten business suits that aren't cheap, one can't be seen in the same suit everyday at the office, looks unprofessional. he's got two smart kids in ivy league colleges, 35k to 40k each per year plus money so they can go out with friends for pizza and a movie once in a while. two more kids in high school who'll be driving soon, wait till he gets the insurance bill for his cars then. plus he has to put clothes on these kids. the two boys still at home, 15 and 17, love the yankees, of course he has to take them to a few games per year, decent seats are in the 100$ to 200$ range, hot dogs 7 bucks each, 50$ to park. the wife needs to dress and look like a NY lawyer's wife, hair salon every couple of weeks around 100$, lunches with the girls, a couple of broadway shows every year with dinner in town 500$ easy. 50$ everytime the grass needs mowing, a hundred to the guy who plows the driveway in winter. dental insurance for the family, i don't dare ask. the law firm picks up the medical thank goodness. winter vacation to somewhere warm for a week every year, airplane tix for a family of 6 to the DR 720$ each, plus the cost for the all-inclusive. all of this must take place when the kids are off from school, Xmas usually, most expensive time to travel. in the summer they drive to cape cod or maine and rent a house for a week, maybe 2500$ plus food and dinners, have to go out for lobsters. recently the house need a new roof, 15K. clothes washer broke so he had to go out and buy the new style, the wife insisted upon a matching dryer that wasn't really needed. cell phones for everyone, the new kind with unlimited internet access, i figure about 4k per year. i had to loan him 20$ for gas in order that he could drive home, his credit cards are maxed out. he's upper middle class in the US and broke.

my poor father in law, just north of santiago, grows all his own vegatables and fruits, grows coffee and cacoa as well. has plenty of chickens, always a few big fat pigs and a bunch of little ones running around sqealing. pays no mortgage, no taxes, no insurance. swims in one of two nearby creeks, one is fast moving and cold the other slow and warm. eats, sleeps, drinks a little at the colmado while playing dominoes whenever he feels like it.

 

[PICHARDO]

But let us qualify first as Dominican denizens! No?

 

[Tarheel]

As someone who's first trip to the DR was in 1978, there have dramatic positive changes since then. I think the big turning point has been in the agriculture industry. I don't know what year that the DR became a net exporter of food but that was big!

I have no idea what percentage of Dominicans are middle class but the overall trajectory is upward. The government has been the one real negative. Corruption and graft have not lessened since 1978; if anything it has gotten worse. If the government was functioning properly, such as in Costa Rica, and the primary education system was improved the DR would be world class.

I think all Dominicans should be proud of their country.

 

[SKing]

i've got a close friend who is a lawyer in NY city. he' paid quite well, six figures. he's paying a mortgage on a 1.2 million dollar house in scarsdale, just north of the city. i could live off of what he pays in property taxes, he also pays NYC income tax, NY state income tax and federal income taxes. he's paying monthly for his mercedes and his wife's audi, plus crazy auto insurance. he pays 400$ a month for his parking spot, midtown manhattan, close to the office. he needs to have ten business suits that aren't cheap, one can't be seen in the same suit everyday at the office, looks unprofessional. he's got two smart kids in ivy league colleges, 35k to 40k each per year plus money so they can go out with friends for pizza and a movie once in a while. two more kids in high school who'll be driving soon, wait till he gets the insurance bill for his cars then. plus he has to put clothes on these kids. the two boys still at home, 15 and 17, love the yankees, of course he has to take them to a few games per year, decent seats are in the 100$ to 200$ range, hot dogs 7 bucks each, 50$ to park. the wife needs to dress and look like a NY lawyer's wife, hair salon every couple of weeks around 100$, lunches with the girls, a couple of broadway shows every year with dinner in town 500$ easy. 50$ everytime the grass needs mowing, a hundred to the guy who plows the driveway in winter. dental insurance for the family, i don't dare ask. the law firm picks up the medical thank goodness. winter vacation to somewhere warm for a week every year, airplane tix for a family of 6 to the DR 720$ each, plus the cost for the all-inclusive. all of this must take place when the kids are off from school, Xmas usually, most expensive time to travel. in the summer they drive to cape cod or maine and rent a house for a week, maybe 2500$ plus food and dinners, have to go out for lobsters. recently the house need a new roof, 15K. clothes washer broke so he had to go out and buy the new style, the wife insisted upon a matching dryer that wasn't really needed. cell phones for everyone, the new kind with unlimited internet access, i figure about 4k per year. i had to loan him 20$ for gas in order that he could drive home, his credit cards are maxed out. he's upper middle class in the US and broke.

my poor father in law, just north of santiago, grows all his own vegatables and fruits, grows coffee and cacoa as well. has plenty of chickens, always a few big fat pigs and a bunch of little ones running around sqealing. pays no mortgage, no taxes, no insurance. swims in one of two nearby creeks, one is fast moving and cold the other slow and warm. eats, sleeps, drinks a little at the colmado while playing dominoes whenever he feels like it.

I love it!!!

SHALENA

 

[the gorgon]

thanks to NotLurking for an exchange which was conducted in an air of absolute civility, at least at the end. if anyone contributed any vitirol, it would have been i. there are certain misconceptions which i cannot allow to go unattended.

1...GDP has nothing to do with class structure. it is simply an expression of the revenues of all goods and services within a country in a given accounting period. it does not express how the money is spent, how it is raised, and who gets it. therefore, the GDP can be going gangbusters, and people, in general, are getting poorer. the USA in 2007 is a perfect case study.

2..absent rigid criteria for what poverty is, in each specific economy, and orthodox methodologies for data gathering, we might as well be discussing whether or not the moon is made of cheese.

 

[Chip]

2..absent rigid criteria for what poverty is, in each specific economy, and orthodox methodologies for data gathering, we might as well be discussing whether or not the moon is made of cheese.

Perspective is also important as well. What an American or European perceives as poverty is not the same that most Dominicans would.

 

[the gorgon]

exactly, Chip. that is the reason why i said that the criteria have to be rigidly defined, or else we will all have our own subjective idea of what poverty is. compared to me, my cleaning lady lives in poverty. compared to Leon Jiminez, i live in squalor.

 

[NotLurking]

1...GDP has nothing to do with class structure. it is simply an expression of the revenues of all goods and services within a country in a given accounting period. it does not express how the money is spent, how it is raised, and who gets it.

The argument for using GDP as a standard-of-living proxy is not that it is a good indicator of the absolute level of standard of living, but that living standards tend to move with per-capita GDP, so that changes in living standards are readily detected through changes in GDP.

Source: Gross domestic product - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The standard of living is a measure of the material welfare of the inhabitants of a country. The baseline measure of the standard of living is real national output per head of population or real GDP per capita. This is the value of national output divided by the resident population. Other things being equal, a sustained increase in real GDP increases a nation?s standard of living providing that output rises faster than the total population.

Source: Macroeconomics - National Income and Changes in Living Standards

According to Okun's law there is a correlation between GDP increase and unemployment decrease. A decrease in unemployment should affect class standards. Also, GDP increases affect Human Development Index (HDI) in a positive way.

NotLurking