And nobody backs down....

Is this really NalOwhs asking? Your post seems far too short and concise? And you don't want an academic answer either?

Well, anyway, my first thought is that until recently and even today, the black/white question in the US is really a legal distinction. Originally with slavery I suppose, were there any white slaves? (was that possible?), later with the segregation laws and regulations, and even today with affirmative action programs. Other countries, with the exception of South Africa, and maybe others that I am ignorant of, just don't have that sort of tradition. That experience and the one drop of blood rule created a mentality that said if your not white you're black.

Nal0whs said:

Is it culture shock? Is it cultural misinterpretation? Is it arrogance?

Click to expand...

I think that from the American standpoint, it is cultural misinterpretation, but I will get back to that.

Now I want to preface this by saying that I feel this is the overall American perception and not necessarily mine. Having said that, I don't think that Americans see people as white or black as you say. I do think however that alot of white Americans see people as white and non-white. Then the non-whites are put into sub-categories. Blacks are just that....blacks. Most Americans would see a black Cuban or black Puerto-Rican or what have you and put them in the same category as a black American. Take Bernie Williams from the New York Yankees for example. At first glance, he looks just like an African American. Fellow white New Yorkers have said to me something to the effect, " Bernie Williams is black but says he is Puerto Rican". I explain that he IS Puerto Rican. They don't understand and I don't go into explainations.

Asians on the other hand are mostly referred to as "Chinese" or just orientals. If someone looks oriental, they are assumed to be Chinese. Most people assume that if an oriental is not Chinese, he must be Japanese. If you correct someone and explain that the person they are referring to is Vietnamese or Thai or Phillipino or whatever, most Americans just look confused or they respond with "same thing".

All middle easterns used to be assumed to be Indian. If he looked like he was from that part of the world, he was an Indian. If he had a head wrap. He was an Indian. If you had a dot on your head, you were an Indian. You could be from Lebenon or Syria but you were still an Indian. Now since 9-11, most Americans realize that many of the people they considered to be Indian before are actually from different countries other than India. But this has become too confusing so they are all lumped into the category of "Arabs" now. Dosen't matter where they are from or what religion they are. Forget about religions. Way too confusing.

Now....anyone from Latin American or the carribean who speaks Spanish is not a Colombian or a Dominican or a Cuban or what have you....they are "Spanish". It dosen't matter what country they are from, they are all lumped into the category of "Spanish". People have asked me, " How are the nice young Spanish girls down there (in the DR). I try to explain that they are not Spanish but Dominican. People look confused. I go on to explain that Spanish people come from Spain. Dominican people come from the Dominican Republic. Most people respond with something like, "well they speak Spanish". I respond to this with, " well, you speak English, are you English? No, you are American". This really confuses people and at this point, I usually drop the subject.

So, you see, it is it is not arrogance but ignorance, or cultural misinterpretation I guess you could say.

I guess my post may have come across as funny to some and sad to others. I agree with both.

Larry

I think Larry should associate with a better class of people

Actually, this is very common, Larry and you are so right. Excellent observations.

Nowadays in the US there are some tremendous advantages to being Latin. I know one woman, very dark, Dajabon-area Dominican lady that got a full ride for her Masters and quick acceptance for her doctorate all because she was (1) Female, (2) black and (3) Hispanic...not that she wasn't very bright, but she did fill three Affirmative Action slots at one time.

That said, black/white is losing its meaning around the world.



HB

HB, I assume you are joking but just to clarify...

That is not who I "associate" with. I am just speaking about so many people I come in contact with and how the average American percieves things. My family and people who I choose to become friends with know better.

Larry

Arrogance

Basically it is arrogance. Still today, one hundred and fifty years post slavery, many in American culture portrays Black men as innately savage, animalistic, destructive, and criminal -- deserving punishment, maybe death. Black men are depicted as hideous, terrifying predators that target helpless victims, especially White women.

The "terrible crime" most often mentioned in connection with the Black men was rape, more specifically, the rape of a White woman. At the beginning of the twentieth century, much of the virulent, anti-Black propaganda that found its way into scientific journals, local newspapers, and best-selling novels focused on the stereotype of the Black rapist. The claim that Black brutes were, in epidemic numbers, raping White women became the public rationalization for most of Americas White society.

Just prior to the civil right movement in the US, In 1955, Emmitt Till, a Black fourteen year old Chicago youth, visited his relatives in Mississippi. Till apparently referred to a female White store clerk as "Baby." Several days later, the woman's husband and brother took Till from his uncle's home, beat him to death -- his head was crushed and one eye was gouged out--then threw his body into the Tallahatchie River. The men were caught, tried, and found innocent by an all-White jury.

In 1994 Susan Smith, a young mother in Union, South Carolina, claimed that a man had commandeered her car with her two boys -- Alex, 14-month-old, and Michael, 3-year-old. She described the carjacker as a "Black male in his late 20s to early 30s, wearing a plaid shirt, jeans, and a toboggan-type hat." A composite of her description was published in newspapers, nationally and locally. Smith appeared on national television, tearfully begging for her sons to be returned safely. An entire nation wept with her, and the image of the Black brute resurfaced. The Reverend Mark Long, the pastor of the church where Smith's family attended services, said in reference to the Black suspect, "There are some people that would like to see this man's brains bashed in."
After nine days of a gut-wrenching search and strained relations between local Blacks and Whites, there was finally a break in the case: Susan Smith confessed to drowning her own sons. In a two-page handwritten confession she apologized to her sons, but she did not apologize to Blacks, nationally or locally. "It was hard to be Black this week in Union," said Hester Booker, a local Black man. "The Whites acted so different. They wouldn't speak (to Blacks); they'd look at you and then reach over and lock their doors. And all because that lady lied."
I guess the bottom line is that we in lily white America need to label people by color so we have something to fear. Something to protect or daughters from. So if you are not pure white you are to be feared and labeled.

Will America?s ever increasing population of mud children change this attitude, I expect not.

Chuckuindy

No Backing Down As to Identity

The reason neither side is willing to back down is because race is so closely intertwined with identity. What color or race you or your ancestors are has a lot to do -- for better or worse -- with how we see ourselves and how other people see us. That's why people are always trying to put light-skinned people (like Mariah Carey or Derek Jeter) in a box, because unless they know their race for sure, they don't know how to relate to them. It's as if we can't accept them until they're safely in one box or another.

The major difference between Blacks in the U.S. and "Blacks"/Indio/Moreno (or whatever they want to be called) in the D.R. is the difference between confrontation and avoidance. Blacks in the U.S. have confronted the problem of race on a national and personal level (remember "Black is Beautiful"?) People in the DR avoid racial problems and tend to deny their existence, even though its plain as day to visitors from the U.S.

I remember clearly on one of my first visits to the DR how a fellow the color of Pena Gomez grew visibly upset when I referred to him as Black. He actually took out his cedula to prove to me that he was "Indio." That happened in the U.S. a lot up until the '50s when some Blacks tried "passing" for White. (Though I doubt this fellow had a prayer). It's much less likely to happen today.

One more thing, while he was in power Trujillo formally declared Dominicans to be "constitutionally White." That's the polar opposite of "Black is Beautiful."

And Here I Thought This Was "DR1",Not "USA 1",and a Moderated Forum!

Guess I was wrong on both counts!!
Soooooooooooo,As I tell all the dominicans I meet who consider themselves to be,"Morenos", "Indios","Claros","Rubios" and even "Blancos", you step off the plane at "JFK",you are a "Spic" at best,and a "Nigger" at least!

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

There is no "Mixed race!
Once Pure White Blood is tainted,it is just that,tainted,Black! It can no longer BE Pure WHITE!
Very Simple!
Next question about the UNITED STATES please.

Might Makes Right!!!!!!!The USA RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"He Who Has The Most "TOYS" Wins"!


"USA!>>>USA!>>>USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :classic:

On any given night, the sky literally looks different depending from which part of the globe is your vantage point. Same sky, same reality; different angle, different perspectives.

Each nation/culture in history has picked its own arbitrary lines of social hierarchies. Both the in the real and the imagined worlds. Their unique regionally-defined values and standards will inevitably also contain many glitches and defects, when put to the test of the standards and values of others. The goal is to work on the strenghts of both viewpoints and help reduce each other's defects. "Win-win situation". Pretending to have others always view things "your way" is a futile exercise. Even if you think you can force people to change as if "inspired by divine forces". Live and let live.... Love and Get love...and...I guess why not....lava and let lava.!

No culture is perfect. Everyone, Dominicanos, Americans, and whoever: no single view is the [I]best or RIGHT[/I]!. or any single one the worse.!or Wrong!! all the time. We are all partially blinded by our own biases and whatever vices our immediate culture perpetuates.

Let's keep on blending ideas and people. Respecting the differences, and learning from the positives of one another, everyone becomes a better global citizen....and yadah-yadah-yadah!!...

- Tordok
(intergalactic space-cadet :ermm:

Totally Tongue & Cheek

NawoIhs, good question, I hope you get a decent answer? But not just Americans see race that way, most of the rest of the world does........

CC, you made my day! Whether in jest or on a serious note, you said what some Americans think.

As for Larry, Chuck & Millard, very well put. There are many ways of looking at race and why humans focus on it so much.Wonder what would happen if we encountered another gruop of beings?

Anyway, what is ultimately important, how we see ourselves or how people see us?

Most Dominicans are mixed or white or black it is their prerogative and I say Amen to that.

And the opposite of what someone else said (if white is tainted with black); if black is tainted with white then what?

I am a strong believer in the power of self-esteem. If I choose to see myself as Chinese today because it makes me feel good and makes it easier to sail through life, then power to me!!!!!!!!!!

Color is a strange thing...

Personally I truly believe I have long since become colorblind.. I look at people for what and who they really are and if they share my values.. then you're part of my tribe... I've lived and worked in many countries and it has only broadened my perspective to the extent that I lost my adherence to a specific culture or race...but the people around me sometimes still identify by race or creed.. it identifies their history and their roots.. provides them with a sense of belonging and security.. well that's fine by me..

I think that an increase in the mixing of races will also mean an increase of cross cultural experience and diluting of adherence to one creed only..

Racism sans animosity?

Unlike the overt, venomous racism found in the US a few decades ago, racist attitudes in DR are, for the most part, benign in its interpretation. A person can call anyone "negro feo" and not, apparently, convey the vile that is more often associated with this type of rhetoric elsewere, especially the US.

It's somewhat amazing that,generally, people will unabashely tell you they want to try to "improve the race" by marrying into lighter skin. This can be embarrasing to some. What ever happened to black is beautiful?

To illustrate my point: My black aunt-in-law, who is a medical doctor/pharmacist, married and had children with my white uncle who never had much schooling. She is much admired and celebrated for her wealth, intelligence but more so because she "got" a white man and now their children are all "white". They're not at all offended when told about their racial difference, au contraire, they seem to relish it.

My conclusion is that racism the DR is a non-issue relegated to the back burner that serves little purpose in discussing or dissecting. Agree?

Don Juan said:

Unlike the overt, venomous racism found in the US a few decades ago, racist attitudes in DR are, for the most part, benign in its interpretation. A person can call anyone "negro feo" and not, apparently, convey the vile that is more often associated with this type of rhetoric elsewere, especially the US.

It's somewhat amazing that,generally, people will unabashely tell you they want to try to "improve the race" by marrying into lighter skin. This can be embarrasing to some. What ever happened to black is beautiful?

To illustrate my point: My black aunt-in-law, who is a medical doctor/pharmacist, married and had children with my white uncle who never had much schooling. She is much admired and celebrated for her wealth, intelligence but more so because she "got" a white man and now their children are all "white". They're not at all offended when told about their racial difference, au contraire, they seem to relish it.

My conclusion is that racism the DR is a non-issue relegated to the back burner that serves little purpose in discussing or dissecting. Agree?

Click to expand...

DJ,
I agree with your observation that there is little institutionalized racism in the DR.

I however do not agree with your logic of it being a non-issue if the very example that you used to show how most Dominican families openly talk (and actually believe in the concept) of "improving the race" defies your conclusion.

If White is valued (mejorar la raza) then non-White is being devalued (empeorar la raza???). In such a system, what is deemed as good and advantageous to a few "lucky" ones must by necessity be discriminatory and socially unfavorable to the many who do not or cannot "improve the race".

- Tordok

"What The Hell Are You Talking About??

Ask yourself this,"When Is The Last Time You Saw A "White" Shoe Shine Boy,Or a "Black" Bank President???

Or,Just look at that Social Magazine that comes out in the Sunday paper.Everyone who is Anyone,is WHITE! If you see a peson-of-color,they turn out to be an "entertainer", or a foreign Ambasador!

To say that a man or a woman from a wealthy Dominican family would marry a "Pretty Negro" is totally wrong.I can hear the laughter from Arroyo Hondo right now!!

I have NEVER seen a country where everyone can tell "precisely" the "color" of every other Dominican,and not their own.THEIR color always gets "upgraded" by 2 or 3 "shades"!
My wife thinks that she is an "India Clara",I would call her,"Haitiana",but ONLY if I have a Death Wish"!
I hear that "Pena Gomez" wanted to be caled "El Rubio", but his managers thought that would be "Pushing The Envelope"!

This is a Country of "Wannabies",The Blacks "Wannabe" White,and the Whites,"Wannabie" Americans!

"Until we Dominicans learn to accept ourselves for who we actually are,there is no hope that we can become what we really want to be!".......................That is a "Quote" from "Nalowls"!

True

What NalOwhs said is correct. It's more about facial features than color of skin. It's like that in the U.S. too. If you look at American media, being tan(what we call trigue?o)=beautiful and looking pasty white=ugly. That's why alot of American people, especially the females go and tan at the beach or get artificial tans. However, "Euopean" features are still favored over "african/negro" features. That's why alot of white women these day get a nose job(they think their nose is not thin enough) and get a tan right after. Even if you look at t.v.programming you will see that there are alot more mulattos (Halle Berry, Mariah Carey, Vanessa Williams, Beyonce)than actual BLACK people and if she is really black her features are not very "african." Sounds rediculous but it's the truth. Just turn on MTV and BET and any other channel for that matter.

Criss,
According to you EVERYONE in the world is trying to be American. America is the land of opportunity but I have to tell you that it is the most boring,bland most soul-less place on earth. You could never compare the vibrant cultures of Italy, Spain, Greece or even Latin America with the blandness(if that's a word) of The U.S. of A. I'm not saying that the U.S. is the worst (it's not because there are alot of oppurtunities to succeed in the U.S.) but that doesn't mean that anyone is trying to leave their culture to become American.
P.S. English is also a very boring and bland language. Important but bland.

Think about it,in the U.S., Religion,health and even family comes after money.

MY POINT IS.......NOT EVERYONE IS TRYING TO BE AMERICAN!!!!

These threads are like that movie Groundhog Day. :tired: