....

Mr. Lu · Sep 30, 2009

This is scary. From the DR1 Daily News: 30 September 2009

Citizens lose civil right
The new Constitution agreed on by the PRD and PLD majority in Congress and the party leaderships includes a clause eliminating Dominican citizens' right to protest against violations of the Constitution or the violation of rules or judicial acts. The change was made on the grounds that citizens "do not have a true judicial or legally protected interest." This means that Dominicans will not be able to protest when they believe that laws, resolutions or decrees issued by the government are in violation of the Constitution, as reported in El Caribe.

Wow!

Mr. Lu

CFA123 · Sep 30, 2009

I would protest that is unconstitutional and is in violation of laws... but I guess I can't.

Does it expressly say they can't hire non-citizens to protest for them? May be the newest way for expats to earn a living. Fill the streets with paid gringo protestors!

All joking aside, limiting freedom of speech is a bad sign and sounds like the type of thing that Chavez (for example) uses to suppress opposition. If it's truly as reported, you'd think there'd be major protests right now.

Mr. Lu · Sep 30, 2009

That's the double edge sword. Basic freedoms are being challenged, but no one has gotten up and viced anger over. So where does that leave the country? Apathy is a killer.

Mr. Lu

minerva_feliz · Sep 30, 2009

Nice title

Could have also gone with 'WTF?!' There's really no way for me to approach this, it's so incredible. Isn't free speech one of the very basic tenants of democracy? Some kind of international human right? Ahh, what do I know, better let 'los que sepan de eso' decide.

If this is true, it makes me feel uncomfortable about living here and will influence my decision to continue to do so. Talk about the man keeping the little people down. It seems like a flying leap backward into the days of Trujillo and associates. :ermm:

Chip · Sep 30, 2009

No doubt we can thank the new wave of "kinder, gentler even humanist(yeah right)" socialism floating around for that. Ahh, but remember it is for the betterment of mankind... because the "masses" obviously can't do it on there own. Leonel is starting to scare me.

Lambada · Sep 30, 2009

Mr. Lu said:
This is scary. From the DR1 Daily News: 30 September 2009

Citizens lose civil right
The new Constitution agreed on by the PRD and PLD majority in Congress and the party leaderships includes a clause eliminating Dominican citizens' right to protest against violations of the Constitution or the violation of rules or judicial acts. The change was made on the grounds that citizens "do not have a true judicial or legally protected interest." This means that Dominicans will not be able to protest when they believe that laws, resolutions or decrees issued by the government are in violation of the Constitution, as reported in El Caribe.

Wow!

Mr. Lu

Did you see my response to you here, quoting DR1 news of 2 weeks ago?
http://www.dr1.com/forums/government/96096-new-constitution.html#post794613

Not the fiirst time this has been in the news. I was quite surprised you didn't respond on that thread, but perhaps you're doing so here :cheeky:?

leromero · Sep 30, 2009

So who's in charge here? Chavez?

RonS · Sep 30, 2009

If the powers that be have agreed to deny Dominican citizens the right to free speech and freedom to assemble to protest unlawful acts or constitutional violations, what the heck do you think they would do to protesting gringos?! On another thread I asked the question as to whether these constitutional 'reforms' are being discussed among ordinary Dominican citizens and was informed that there discussions were going on. I guess the better question is: are the ordinary Dominican citizens actively contributing to the debate and standing up for basic human rights or are they just being the apathetic sheep being led to slaughter. The deafening silence answers that question unequivocally! All this sounds like a done deal to me. So much for the new era of Dominican politics Leonel was hoped to usher in! He has really been a disappointment!

Mr. Lu · Sep 30, 2009

...

Lambada said:
Did you see my response to you here, quoting DR1 news of 2 weeks ago?
http://www.dr1.com/forums/government/96096-new-constitution.html#post794613

Not the fiirst time this has been in the news. I was quite surprised you didn't respond on that thread, but perhaps you're doing so here :cheeky:?

I saw your response, but I was waiting to see where all of this went. First off, I am interested in the coverage of the new constitution by the local press, who have managed to present the news, but in typical Dominican journalism, has lost the point.

So in that sense there is even more of a sense of concern, since the voice of the people, or the group that can potentially challenge the powers of government, the media, has failed its job here.

There is a great concern here. Dominicans no longer have the right to challenge those things they view as unconstitutional, because they do not have the "right to do so."

"The change was made on the grounds that citizens "do not have a true judicial or legally protected interest."

So the basis of a real democracy, the right to free speech, and the power of the proletariat, to challenge through civil disobedience, dissent, or any form of protest against the government, have now been abolished?

So when Juan Politico steals a million bucks, or better yet Leonel Fernandez signs a US$130 million deal with Sun Land, and bypasses all Congressional and Judicial protocol, neither I, nor the news media, nor the general public, have the right to protest this?

This is not about political ideology. Both the left and the right, in the US / Western context, have moved their politics to the extremes to further their agendas. The Republicans did it with the Patriot Act, and the Democrats are doing it with their wild spending.

But in the DR, I see it as a way to create a legal protection for politicians to steal more. Nuria and the rest of those TV journalist, and those people protesting Los Haitises, are now left to eat dirt and enjoy it.

But, wait, why do I care? Dominicans don't care. And I can leave anytime I want. I checked out of this system a long time ago. I guess I've posted this as a result of utter dismay, but in the end it won't bother me. I'll "pillage and plunder," leave ash in my wake and not give two winks about the repercussions, until locals make me think different.

For most of us on this board, we are so removed from the potentials of this issue, that we would never be in the middle of the protests, anyway.

File this under: "Crazy sh*t that happens in the DR," and use it as coffee table conversation with your "gringo" friends. And when you strike up a conversation with your Dominican "apathetics," tell them to shut up and remind them the no longer have the right to say anything.

Mr. Lu

Kajuilito · Sep 30, 2009

Where is this in writing? In a verifiable format? I keep hearing about it but I havent seen any concrete proof yet. Its far more than disheartening. I may just give up on all hope if its indeed true.

Mr. Lu · Sep 30, 2009

...

Kajuilito said:
Where is this in writing? In a verifiable format? I keep hearing about it but I havent seen any concrete proof yet. Its far more than disheartening. I may just give up on all hope if its indeed true.

From Listin Diario:

NO PODR?N DEMANDAR INCONSTITUCIONALIDAD
La Asamblea rechaz? que el ciudadano pueda demandar en inconstitucionalidad las normas y actos jur?dicos de conformidad con los procedimientos establecidos por ley, debido a que esa facultad estar? incluida en el Tribunal Constitucional que ser? incluida en la nueva Carta Magna. ?sto var?a lo aprobado en primera lectura, cuando se le dio facultad al ciudadano de demandar en inconstitucionalidad.

Sin embargo, en el acuerdo pactado por el PLD y el PRD, se decidi? su eliminaci?n.

En cambio la Asamblea aprob? que el ciudadano tiene derecho a denunciar las faltas cometidas por los funcionarios p?blicos en el desempe?o de sus cargos, acogiendo una propuesta de la Comisi?n de Verificaci?n.

Listin Diario

Mr. Lu

Chip · Sep 30, 2009

Mr. Lu said:
So in that sense there is even more of a sense of concern, since the voice of the people, or the group that can potentially challenge the powers of government, the media, has failed its job here.

The media here just reflects the attitudes of it's citizens. What you find fairly common among LA citizens is an understanding that corruption is rampant and normal and they have become desensitized to a point that laws are really just words with little effect to real life. Most also believe that the governments in other countries are the same, like in the US and Europe etc. and that laws like the one mentioned are the norm. For example, the "Patriot Act" you reference pales in comparison to what any LA country can, will and does to investigates it's citizens if it wants to and yet, the crying foul by our press agencies only confirm latinamericans that the US is just as corrupt as their country; in other words this new law is just "par for the course" and nothing to get excited about. In fact, it seems most laws discussed in the news end up focusing on the procedural as opposed to the ideological, as if ideological has no real concern or end effect.

Furthermore, most latinamericans cannot understand nor accept the altogether vast difference of corruption in their countries compared to more developed countries. I have discussed this topic for years and years with many la's (mostly in the Army) incl Dominicans to no avail.

Mr. Lu · Sep 30, 2009

...

Chip said:
Furthermore, most latinamericans cannot understand nor accept the altogether vast difference of corruption in their countries compared to more developed countries. I have discussed this topic for years and years with many la's (mostly in the Army) incl Dominicans to no avail.

I can agree with this part. But my concern is that when the media, "the last line of defense," the one sector that can hold some accountability, inform the public and forward the message of the public to those who are willing or need to listen, has ceased to do its job, then what is left? The media, for better or worse, and journalism, at its basic core, is about informing and information, and in the DR, the media and the journalist have failed.

No one is asking the tough questions, on "our" behalf, so what is left.

In the US, even if you don't agree with the "partisanship" of a "journalist" or don't trust that there is an altruistic intent behind the coverage, rather are suspicious of the motives for certain types of journalism, the default result is that there is a viable and visible opposition. This is non-existent here in the DR.

Anyways, just my two cents...

Mr. Lu

Kajuilito · Sep 30, 2009

Thanks Mr Lu.

Frankly, I dont believe Americans have any real say in what happens in their country either. I dont believe ANY of the American media is truthful. The powers that be do as they please no matter what. They just do more to keep people generally appeased and distracted while they do their dirt. I believe the "power" of the commoners is a myth in the U.S. but people sure do seem think what they say matters. Call me a pessimist but ever since the 2000 elections I gave up on the U.S. and began to see it as just another bunch of more advanced and much more slick mafiosos.

What we see in the DR is an extreme form of that minus the "keeping people appeased" part. Rather than throw the people a few bones to chew on while they secretly line their pockets like the American gov, the DR gov does nothing to even TRY to pretend they care. Therein lies the problem. If they at least did HALF of what theyre supposed to and then did their dirt on the low like the U.S., all would be well on its way.

People in the DR have long felt powerless and for good reason. When have they ever had a gov worth a damn? If its not dictators its "democracy" with rigged elections and politicians who do nothing if its not for their own personal gain.

I dont have much hope for the DR at this point...but I feel the same way about all governments.

I dont have faith in humanity, period. When have we ever been better? We have always been the same just in different settings and times. Dig deep enough and you will find ugliness and greed in every country, sadly.

Chip · Oct 1, 2009

Kajuilito said:
Thanks Mr Lu.

Frankly, I dont believe Americans have any real say in what happens in their country either.

It's all run by the illuminati or the Jews right, jeje. This is a common theme I have heard it a thousand times.

Still, when you get outside of the big cities like LA, NY Wash. and Miami and Chicago corruption is all but non existant. Try bribing a cop or a zoning official and see what happens. It's done in the open here in the DR, I even saw a friend of mine bribe an immigration officer right next to a poster that said no bribes are accepted!

As far as the 2000 election, I've heard a lot about this from my many latin friends and certainly there were some issues but to compare that to what goes on in any LA year after year is just utterly ridiculous and senseless imo.

Lambada · Oct 1, 2009

Mr. Lu said:
There is a great concern here. Dominicans no longer have the right to challenge those things they view as unconstitutional, because they do not have the "right to do so."

"The change was made on the grounds that citizens "do not have a true judicial or legally protected interest."

So the basis of a real democracy, the right to free speech, and the power of the proletariat, to challenge through civil disobedience, dissent, or any form of protest against the government, have now been abolished?
Mr. Lu

Does it actually mean that? Or does it mean that plaints have to go to the Constitutional Tribunal and not the Supreme Court? Wasn't part of the debate whether there should be a constitutional chamber within the Supreme Court or whether an autonomous Constitutional Tribunal should be established and didn't the Constitutional Tribunal end up being the decision? Or does it mean that cases challenging unconstitutionality have to go via an organisation like PC or Finjus if the plaintiff has not been personally harmed by the unconstitutional infraction? Namely that those plaintiffs submitting direct plaints have to prove personal cause?
La Rep?blica - Pared P?rez aclara que la reforma incluye el recurso de inconstitucionalidad

Puntos de vista - ?Por qu? un Tribunal Constitucional?

La Rep?blica - Los ciudadanos no podr?n demandar en inconstitucionalidad

Why not repost your thread in Legal for Dr. Guzman's view, Mr. Lu? I think this question needs a more in depth analysis than most of us are capable of since we don't have the constitutional knowledge. I'd hate for us all to go off at a tangent thinking all human rights in the DR have been felled at one blow, if it isn't the case...............

aranoid:

And btw there are journalists writing about this:
Partidos pol?ticos y camarillas :: CLAVE digital m?vil

RonS · Oct 1, 2009

"Does it actually mean that? Or does it mean that plaints have to go to the Constitutional Tribunal and not the Supreme Court."

You make a very good point, Lambda. Before drawing conclusions and becomming completely disgusted by what appears to be an abuse of power, we should really get clarification as to what in fact as been decided, and as to what the language of these constitutional provisions actually is. The wording makes all the difference and I do hope that you are right in alluding to the possibility that some of us have interpreted this incorrectly. The suggestion that Mr. Lu puts forward, however, that the media is doing a poor job in its obligation to adequately inform the Dominican public is problematic and should not be taken lightly.

Kajuilito · Oct 1, 2009

Chip said:
It's all run by the illuminati or the Jews right, jeje. This is a common theme I have heard it a thousand times.

Still, when you get outside of the big cities like LA, NY Wash. and Miami and Chicago corruption is all but non existant. Try bribing a cop or a zoning official and see what happens. It's done in the open here in the DR, I even saw a friend of mine bribe an immigration officer right next to a poster that said no bribes are accepted!

As far as the 2000 election, I've heard a lot about this from my many latin friends and certainly there were some issues but to compare that to what goes on in any LA year after year is just utterly ridiculous and senseless imo.

Nope. I dont recall mentioning "illuminati" or "jews". More like Corporations and special interest groups. Big Money runs the U.S. No conspiracy here.

As for comparisons being "ridiculous and senseless", uhhh...no. Thats something we all do and its how we gain our views on the world. By comparing. I dont recall saying it was "the same" but to say one has NOTHING to do with the other is whats senseless. Corruption to different degrees is still corruption all the same. Of course the issues in LA are more grave. When did I say the contrary? You think its beyond my comprehension and level of intelligence to note both differences and similarities between countries all over the world? Or that if I mention the US is shady it means I think its on the same scale as in LA? You put words in my mouth. I explained the difference between the two clear as day. Whether you want to accept it or not, thats just what it is.

You have assigned other peoples views to me based on what people I have no connection with (other than LA provenance) have said. I am not a "type", thanks.

If I do not trust ANY government, I have all the reasons in the world to do so. That cannot be argued.

So we dont share the exact same views. Big woop. That doesnt make me "ridiculous" or "senseless". If I dont say "Rah Rah America: You are the best and you are faultless" I am crazy, I suppose.

Kajuilito · Oct 1, 2009

Theres "apathy" and then theres "fear, frustration and a deep feeling of powerlessness". Do you really think the latter isnt a factor in the silence you mention?

What if I told you there are countless of young, educated Dominican men who wish they could affect change but fear they would die young if they ever tried?

Every movement needs leaders, without them they cant exist. If the leaders die what happens?

If you lived in a country where fierce opposers to the powers that be still "disappear" before they ever get to make a mark, how would you feel?

If you were faced with the choice of trying to effect real and true change and dying before you ever get to it, thus making your death pointless, or putting up with the BS and continuing to at least live, which would you choose?

Even low level sindicos and senators have been known to make people disappear in true LA fashion the second they feel their money flow might be interrupted. And everytime someone tries to interfere with the drug trade they die.

How do you think people feel? Apathetic or utterly and completely POWERLESS?

Who is going to protect the revolutionaries we need? Do we have a secret service-type detail available for them? Or will they have no choice but to live in constant fear for their lives? See. Its not that simple.

Its easy to talk.

Chip · Oct 1, 2009

Kajuilito said:
So we dont share the exact same views. Big woop. That doesnt make me "ridiculous" or "senseless". If I dont say "Rah Rah America: You are the best and you are faultless " I am crazy, I suppose.

I never say that either about the US, go figure.

I stand by my claim that it is not uncommon for most people of LA countries to try to compare the corruption with their countries and that of the US as if they were at similar levels, based on my personal experience, and that trying to infer that said governments are very similar in their function is a fruitless endeavor.

Most LA governments put it's constituents money in the pockets of it's politicians while most of the American government's money goes into infrastructure and public needs such as health and security. Just compare these two areas and you will see there is no comparison.

....

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