Age and race discrimination by DR employers?

[RacerX]

it's not like there is a particularly virulent strain of racial antagonism that is is uniquely North American.

I agree with what you say but I differ in opinion with respect to one word. I think it is virulent in the DR. In the US I think it is not only virulent but also violent. In the US the antagonism comes at the end of a gun by people are too scared at how well you would do in comparison to themselves if there were no hindrances. In the Dominican Republic, the antagonism is festered in class structure and what it takes to acquire a position in that class structure and party alliances. If your party has to lineal relationship to Europe then the insertion into the class structure that makes decisions is off- limits. Just as DMV said there are unspoken and subtle cues and clues that determine where the ceiling exists. And the most peculiar thing is that the insular culture of nepotism and ethnocentric allegiances doesn't interest the foreigners when they visit. The foreigners find the phenotypic representation of the underclass blindly more desirable than the erudite elite. In fact, the elite are almost relegated to remain in their fiefdom as it is the only place where they are extended the aura of supremacy. How many upper class Dominicans do you know who couldnt hack living in New York City because of the inherent plebian status a Dominican has in the Big Apple? So we call those who stay Dominican Yorks and infer that they lack refinement and fawn sophistication because they are exposed, invested and principled in another set of values from a more cosmopolitan place.

worldwide black culture.
...there is some worldwide black culture but many blacks in the US do. It would be great too if all Americans thought of themselves as Americans first, but many don't.

Aida, what he is referring to is that some Black people in the US to give their children African or Muslim names. To celebrate Kwanzaa in addition to Christmas. To wear daishikis and kufis and celebrate Juneteenth, and have wedding ceremonies that include jumping a broom. It is a loony supposition but then again I didn't make it.
My brother is named after Kwame Nkrumah and when I grew up many women were given Islamic names, like Ameenah, Rasheeda and Shakirah. When my daughter was born I gave her an Hindu name.

And wouldnt it really be great if ALL AMERICANS THOUGHT OF OTHER AMERICANS AS AMERICANS ALSO? BUT MANY DON'T. That is a truer statement than the one you made.

When I first moved here and heard comments like fea, flaca etc I was appalled. By my standards this was not done and was rude. Here it just IS. Color is the same - it just is. They judge each other by the color of their skin. That is the way things are here. I have heard women talk about getting a white gringo so they can have whiter babies. About not wanting to date the black Dominican because they don't want ugly black babies.

I know very dark Dominican women who would do anything if only they could lighten their skin so their fellow Dominicans would not see them as ugly. Black is ugly and white is not. That is the underlying bias.

What threw me, is the confusion of whether I am supposed to believe this also? I mean, should I feel ashamed of myself because I am dark-skinned? Should I try to do anything possible to make myself lighter? For whose gain? I can feel ashamed for not speaking Spanish with 100% accuracy but I'm almost indifferent to it and don't let it stop me. I knew there was a class stratification here when I came. I packed all these suits and figured if I dress as a professional they would have to see me as one and respect me as one. But then I re-considered. 1st, wearing suits all the time in a tropical country is incredibly uncomfortable and hot. And 2, I could care less how they saw me because en masse there are so many Black influences coming from the US that all derisive perceptions lose bearing and consistency when exposed to the facts. 3rd, because many of the professional class in the DR are undeserving of that title. Many of them are incompetent as the day is long but rely on skin color and natty attire to give them respect they couldn't muster on their own accord. 4th, that as a foreigner as long as I had money I was the center of the universe, the sun, moon and the stars.

With respect to the self-esteem of the opposite gender on this issue DMV is correct. Screw Pena Gomez, he never got what he wanted did he? Guy runs for president and get party chairman. Mission Accomplished? How many women have you seen Chip with the pancake makeup and rosy cheeks and red lipstick and blue eyeliner who literally looked like clowns? Big brown shoulders but all this crap on her face because she doesn't see herself worthy as a normal brown-skin woman so she has to accentuate her face "estar mas linda". The definition of normal depends on how blanca you pass for. And the Dominican does have an obsession with skin color. An OBSESSION. No one wants to be white but just whiter. Show them photos of your children and the first thing they comment on is the skin color. And how it differs or "pales" in comparison to the parents. Calling dark skin people "mono" and light skin people "limpio". That is as virulent as it gets. As seriously Porto Ricans are no better(I bring this up because there is a segment that always professes independence, nationalism and unity but intentionally ostracize the Black Puerto Rican element as though they are of no importance or ideologically inconsequential).

 

[Mujermaravilla]

I don't think most people here will every understand. In my family there are no whites. The lighter ones wanted to be a little darker and the ones with more coarse hair wanted softer curls. I think I deal beauty in DR is more of a mixed look. not white not black. I think ideal beauty in DR is someone with a trigueno/canela complexion, strait/soft curly hair, straight-ish nose plump lips, not too fat not too skinny. A happy marriage of all things Dominican.

 

[Mujermaravilla]

I agree with what you say but I differ in opinion with respect to one word. I think it is virulent in the DR. In the US I think it is not only virulent but also violent. In the US the antagonism comes at the end of a gun by people are too scared at how well you would do in comparison to themselves if there were no hindrances. In the Dominican Republic, the antagonism is festered in class structure and what it takes to acquire a position in that class structure and party alliances. If your party has to lineal relationship to Europe then the insertion into the class structure that makes decisions is off- limits. Just as DMV said there are unspoken and subtle cues and clues that determine where the ceiling exists. And the most peculiar thing is that the insular culture of nepotism and ethnocentric allegiances doesn't interest the foreigners when they visit. The foreigners find the phenotypic representation of the underclass blindly more desirable than the erudite elite. In fact, the elite are almost relegated to remain in their fiefdom as it is the only place where they are extended the aura of supremacy. How many upper class Dominicans do you know who couldnt hack living in New York City because of the inherent plebian status a Dominican has in the Big Apple? So we call those who stay Dominican Yorks and infer that they lack refinement and fawn sophistication because they are exposed, invested and principled in another set of values from a more cosmopolitan place.




Aida, what he is referring to is that some Black people in the US to give their children African or Muslim names. To celebrate Kwanzaa in addition to Christmas. To wear daishikis and kufis and celebrate Juneteenth, and have wedding ceremonies that include jumping a broom. It is a loony supposition but then again I didn't make it.
My brother is named after Kwame Nkrumah and when I grew up many women were given Islamic names, like Ameenah, Rasheeda and Shakirah. When my daughter was born I gave her an Hindu name.

And wouldnt it really be great if ALL AMERICANS THOUGHT OF OTHER AMERICANS AS AMERICANS ALSO? BUT MANY DON'T. That is a truer statement than the one you made.



What threw me, is the confusion of whether I am supposed to believe this also? I mean, should I feel ashamed of myself because I am dark-skinned? Should I try to do anything possible to make myself lighter? For whose gain? I can feel ashamed for not speaking Spanish with 100% accuracy but I'm almost indifferent to it and don't let it stop me. I knew there was a class stratification here when I came. I packed all these suits and figured if I dress as a professional they would have to see me as one and respect me as one. But then I re-considered. 1st, wearing suits all the time in a tropical country is incredibly uncomfortable and hot. And 2, I could care less how they saw me because en masse there are so many Black influences coming from the US that all derisive perceptions lose bearing and consistency when exposed to the facts. 3rd, because many of the professional class in the DR are undeserving of that title. Many of them are incompetent as the day is long but rely on skin color and natty attire to give them respect they couldn't muster on their own accord. 4th, that as a foreigner as long as I had money I was the center of the universe, the sun, moon and the stars.

With respect to the self-esteem of the opposite gender on this issue DMV is correct. Screw Pena Gomez, he never got what he wanted did he? Guy runs for president and get party chairman. Mission Accomplished? How many women have you seen Chip with the pancake makeup and rosy cheeks and red lipstick and blue eyeliner who literally looked like clowns? Big brown shoulders but all this crap on her face because she doesn't see herself worthy as a normal brown-skin woman so she has to accentuate her face "estar mas linda". The definition of normal depends on how blanca you pass for. And the Dominican does have an obsession with skin color. An OBSESSION. No one wants to be white but just whiter. Show them photos of your children and the first thing they comment on is the skin color. And how it differs or "pales" in comparison to the parents. Calling dark skin people "mono" and light skin people "limpio". That is as virulent as it gets. As seriously Porto Ricans are no better(I bring this up because there is a segment that always professes independence, nationalism and unity but intentionally ostracize the Black Puerto Rican element as though they are of no importance or ideologically inconsequential).

So, would you say that in DR you get more respect as a black man than you would in US? because if that is the case then what you are saying is not true. there is no general racial problem in DR. Maybe the people you associate with don't have the ideal mixed look that Dominicans like and that is why you hear it so much. Unfortunately the people with the more distinct African features are poor and have poor education/self-esteem and so they don't understand why they want to be lighter. I think if you start dealing with Dominicans with more education and better jobs you may find that they have that mixed look and they are less concerned with color.

OR! do you think you are interpreting what people are saying based on your experiences in America? that could be it too you know.

 

[RacerX]

Yea, to answer your 1st question. As Greydread would say when you clear the airport there are no restrictions to being yourself. In the US you get derided as a savage because its more comfortable to put those limitations of people. In the DR, I get more respect because I am a foreigner albeit Black from another place, inherent in this is that I am more educated, distinguished and sophisticated(and read into it, gullible and fiscally endowed).

To address your second point, why are those with African features poor and afflicted with poor education and debilitating self-esteem issues? There are overt issues in place and not just because they dont know anyone with political influence. And your third point is related to the second one. The more educated ones with better jobs are less concerned with color because THEIRS' specifically HAS WORKED TO THEIR BENEFIT. That is how they acquired that job. It is the same as the US with respect to no one cares HOW things work as long as they work in their benefit and in their interest. Don't believe me? Imagine this: How does the state lottery work? No one knows and no one cares, you just hope you win the BIG one!

And to answer your final point, I couldnt say, I d have to go to Brazil to confirm what you say. There are more Black people in Brazil than in the US, but the American Black people are the wealthiest in the world even considering the massive levels of poverty they sustain in the US. But in 2010, it is not as widely seen for women to use pancake base and red lipstick anymore in the age of Posner and Johnson Cosmetics, Ebony, Essence, and Jet magazine. I dont know a cosmetic store in the NY area that will sell hydro-quinone even though they all sell hair relaxer and curling irons.

 

[Mujermaravilla]

Yea, to answer your 1st question. As Greydread would say when you clear the airport there are no restrictions to being yourself. In the US you get derided as a savage because its more comfortable to put those limitations of people. In the DR, I get more respect because I am a foreigner albeit Black from another place, inherent in this is that I am more educated, distinguished and sophisticated(and read into it, gullible and fiscally endowed).

To address your second point, why are those with African features poor and afflicted with poor education and debilitating self-esteem issues? There are overt issues in place and not just because they dont know anyone with political influence. And your third point is related to the second one. The more educated ones with better jobs are less concerned with color because THEIRS' specifically HAS WORKED TO THEIR BENEFIT. That is how they acquired that job. It is the same as the US with respect to no one cares HOW things work as long as they work in their benefit and in their interest. Don't believe me? Imagine this: How does the state lottery work? No one knows and no one cares, you just hope you win the BIG one!

And to answer your final point, I couldnt say, I d have to go to Brazil to confirm what you say. There are more Black people in Brazil than in the US, but the American Black people are the wealthiest in the world even considering the massive levels of poverty they sustain in the US. But in 2010, it is not as widely seen for women to use pancake base and red lipstick anymore in the age of Posner and Johnson Cosmetics, Ebony, Essence, and Jet magazine. I dont know a cosmetic store in the NY area that will sell hydro-quinone even though they all sell hair relaxer and curling irons.

The reasons why people with more african features are poorer then the rest of the population goes WAAY back. as you know in DR it is very hard to move up the social ladder not because of race but because of nepotism. And so those people don't understand that their misfortune is not because they are black but because they are poorly educated.

I gave the example of my own family. All my grand parents came from the campo. only my paternal grandfather had education my maternal grandfather had a chicken stand in the mercado. one generation later and ALL of my aunts and uncles both sides attended college and now live a middle class life. not rich by any means but a decent middle class life. none of my family is white very few are light skinned. They still moved up, color wasn't a problem for them. No they are not rich but that's because non of our family is rich.

And to the last point what I meant to say was... Are you judging what these people think feel about their appearance based on American standards. what I mean is. When somebody says I want a straighter nose is not a total rejection of themselves is just what they perceived to be an improvement.

To an American, that perception of improvement can be an offense/rejection of race but to a Dominican is just an improvement like getting a boob job or wanting a bigger butt.

 

[DMV123]

I wonder if you actually live in the DR or maybe an AI. At any rate I doubt have you ever heard of Pe?a Gomez.

See Chip you know absolutely nothing about me. I disagree with you - simple. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to their own experience. It does not have to be exactly like yours!

 

[cobraboy]

Why is it that American blacks just cannot wrap their heads around the fact that Dominicans view race and color in a totally different paradigm than they do?

And, yes, I do think one needs to live here or be a native Dominican to understand the differences. Traveling here often just doesn't count. I didn't even begin to understand the innerworkings of Dominican culture until I had lived here-and sort of lost my American cultural perspective somewhat-for almost a year, and I'm a seriously observant sort. Traveling to the DR 10-15 weeks a year didn't mean squat compared to living an actual life here.

 

[RacerX]

The reasons why people with more african features are poorer then the rest of the population goes WAAY back. as you know in DR it is very hard to move up the social ladder not because of race but because of nepotism. And so those people don't understand that their misfortune is not because they are black but because they are poorly educated.

I gave the example of my own family. All my grand parents came from the campo. only my paternal grandfather had education my maternal grandfather had a chicken stand in the mercado. one generation later and ALL of my aunts and uncles both sides attended college and now live a middle class life. not rich by any means but a decent middle class life. none of my family is white very few are light skinned. They still moved up, color wasn't a problem for them. No they are not rich but that's because non of our family is rich.

And to the last point what I meant to say was... Are you judging what these people think feel about their appearance based on American standards. what I mean is. When somebody says I want a straighter nose is not a total rejection of themselves is just what they perceived to be an improvement.

To an American, that perception of improvement can be an offense/rejection of race but to a Dominican is just an improvement like getting a boob job or wanting a bigger butt.

I ask you the same question I did in my previous post: Why is it that they perpetually have the most inept education? You don't have to go WAAAY back for the answer. What end purpose does it facilitate? To me, and many others, it prevents them from making an overt attempt to overthrow the government because they are barely literate and couldn't run a government if they tried. Let's assume they did try. What good would it do to overthrow the government if other civilized governments won't deal openly with you. Hmmm, it happened to Haiti since 1804 and still haven't been able to thwart those chains.

Elucidate more in detail why it is hard to move up the social ladder in the DR? Nepotism is only one reason. And its a brief one. These black Dominican folks could have the best education you could give and it would still amount in the same thing you see today, overly educated people who need to leave the country to be successful.

I'm judging how these people think about their appearance based on painting your face with makeup to make it whiter. That they spent money to buy a chemical peel to make their face whiter. That you would spend your last 500 pesos in the salon to make yourself look as frivolously important as the wealthy, who are all white.

And I love how the white foreigner comes here and says that because the Dominican doesn't talk openly about skin color it holds no recurrent theme in their lives. And only by living here can you understand that. Ha! You didn't have to live in South Africa to know apartheid was wrong. You don't have to live through a tsunami to know that things were bad in Indonesia in 2004. That's like telling a Dominican from New Jersey that he is "not Dominican enough" ,or "he is not a true Dominican", to be able to criticize the Dominican culture because he doesn't live there. From afar you can tell how bad things as well as up close. Especially when it comes to wasted potential and mismanagement of human capital.

The only part of what you said that I agree with is that the recurrent theme just like the poor education is something most of them think they can do nothing about so that is why they don't talk about it. They hear these pejorative comments so much that they think they are natural to hear. And even more, the people who say them think it is natural to say. Until the black American comes with a diminished tolerance to play that game. And a decidedly boisterous manner to let you know.

And I don't know your family but if they live on credit they are not middle class. They are working class people pining to appear as though they are middle class and putting on airs through material purchases to try and solidify that image.

 

[bob saunders]

Where can I see these painted ladies you are talking about? They don't seem to be anywhere I frequent. Of course I'm not in the clubs, but I'm surrounded by Dominicanas of all ages and different social classes.
The minister of Education is a black Dominican, as are many other high ranking government members. I saw black Dominican cardiologist last visit for a heart related issue. I meant my wife's former math professor - also black. The list goes on - educated, professional, sucessful Black Dominicans. Are there issues with lack of opportunities for poor Dominicans - yes. Are the barriers greater if they are black - sometimes.

 

[Mujermaravilla]

I ask you the same question I did in my previous post: Why is it that they perpetually have the most inept education?

I didn't catch your question in the previous post, so here is my attempt at answering it, although I have the feeling that you will not take my answer unless it agrees with what you already perceive to be the truth.

Why is it that they perpetually have the most inept education?

Part lack of opportunity, part lack of money to pay for a private school, part lack of motivation, part lack of role models. All the same reasons why poor children in America black or white perpetually have the most inept education.

You don't have to go WAAAY back for the answer. What end purpose does it facilitate? To me, and many others, it prevents them from making an overt attempt to overthrow the government because they are barely literate and couldn't run a government if they tried. Let's assume they did try. What good would it do to overthrow the government if other civilized governments won't deal openly with you. Hmmm, it happened to Haiti since 1804 and still haven't been able to thwart those chains.

You are way over thinking this. Most politicians are just as uneducated as the masses. They don't invest in education because 1. they don't see it as very important 2. they operate on pure greed and the more money they can take the better. They don't think long term, there is no conspiracy to keep the masses uneducated so they won't try to take over the government. I honestly feel that if old money was running the country it would be better for the poor people because they would want an educated workforce. What we have now in government is career thieves. Look at Trujillo and Balaguer regimes they both invested heavily in education but at the same time held power in the hands of very few elites.

more in detail why it is hard to move up the social ladder in the DR? Nepotism is only one reason. And its a brief one. These black Dominican folks could have the best education you could give and it would still amount in the same thing you see today, overly educated people who need to leave the country to be successful.

I am sorry you are not satisfied with the nepotism answer but that IS the biggest reason. In a small island with limited opportunities people give the good jobs to people they know. Unfortunately in Dominican society relationships trump competence.

A Dominican with a good education will prosper. May not achieve the same amount of success as a person in US or even a more well connected Dominican but they will prosper. They won't have to worry where the next meal is coming from. They will own their home, they will have transportation.

You, yourself always write about how incompetent "professionals" are in Dominican republic. I will same that SOME professionals are incompetent and other Dominicans can tell. If a person can not find a job maybe they are being unrealistic about their actual level of skill.

Professionals from all over the work leave their country to make a "better" living. Why they do it? reasons vary. . It could be that they are just mediocre and so they don't make money with their trade. It could be that the lure of the US is stronger than the love for their profession. For example, look at omega, lets call him a professional musician. He makes money in DR he travels the world but he came to US and now he doesn't want to leave. It's not because he couldn't make money in DR is because he wanted to live in Nuevayol all his life.

I'm judging how these people think about their appearance based on painting your face with makeup to make it whiter. That they spent money to buy a chemical peel to make their face whiter. That you would spend your last 500 pesos in the salon to make yourself look as frivolously important as the wealthy, who are all white.

If it's so bad why did everybody make fun of Sammy Sosa? Like I said is not so much about rejection but seen more as an improvement.

As far as make up goes you are a man don't even try to understand why women all over the world wear makeup. We just do.

As far as the salon ok.... appearances are very important in DR. Straight hair is seen as more polished its true. as a woman, with long wild curly hair I will tell you that straight hair is easier to manage, its easier to brush in the morning is easier to pull back, that your hair breaks less when you wear it straight because you don't have to pull it as much. So, although I keep my hair natural because I don't have to deal with the DR humidity I still go to the salon and get it straighten because I only have about 15 in the morning to comb my hair and I like to keep it long and don't want it breaking when I brush it.

and as to why are most of the rich people white? well it goes waaayyy back. and if you read a lot of them are immigrants that came with money to the island. Read composicion social Dominicana. You will see that DR was a very very poor country with poor people of all colors. For a very long time all the wealth was held by a very small group. Then you will see how nepotism created the society with live with today.

And I love how the white foreigner comes here and says that because the Dominican doesn't talk openly about skin color it holds no recurrent theme in their lives. And only by living here can you understand that. Ha! You didn't have to live in South Africa to know apartheid was wrong. You don't have to live through a tsunami to know that things were bad in Indonesia in 2004. That's like telling a Dominican from New Jersey that he is "not Dominican enough" ,or "he is not a true Dominican", to be able to criticize the Dominican culture because he doesn't live there. From afar you can tell how bad things as well as up close. Especially when it comes to wasted potential and mismanagement of human capital.

I think Chip, Cobraboy, and a few other have it right when it comes to Dominicans. They are married into Dominican families. I think when you finally get the chance to belong full time to a Dominican family you will have a better understanding (that's if you every choose to become part of a Dominican family.)

I don't think anybody on this board has the right to say someone is not Dominican enough. BUT there are certain attitudes that aren't very Dominican are more American. The OP I can tell is very Americanized and probably has a lot of African American friends.

The only part of what you said that I agree with is that the recurrent theme just like the poor education is something most of them think they can do nothing about so that is why they don't talk about it. They hear these pejorative comments so much that they think they are natural to hear. And even more, the people who say them think it is natural to say. Until the black American comes with a diminished tolerance to play that game. And a decidedly boisterous manner to let you know.

Not sure what group you are refering to, Dominicans or Americans.

And I don't know your family but if they live on credit they are not middle class. They are working class people pining to appear as though they are middle class and putting on airs through material purchases to try and solidify that image.

You should have left it at... I don't know your family.... I really had to laugh out loud for this one. Tu quieres buscarle la quinta pata al gato. No need to go into my family's finances. Just be happy that for this bunch of morenitos life is getting better as time goes by.

 

[Berzin]

Here's a funny little story-I went into the takeout chinese place in my neighborhood and as I'm waiting for my order a fellow Latino, a young man in his late teens, stated loud enough for me to hear how much he hates white boys as he glared at me through the mirror hanging on the wall. As I was the only other person standing there besides his friends, I figured he was talking about me.

I politely let him know I'm Puerto Rican, was born on the island and speak fluent Spanish, which he did not even though he told me he was Boriqua. Turns out he's never been to the island. If he did he would have realized that Puerto Ricans come in all different colors and that not all of us are mulatto-skinned thugs with Caesar haircuts like the ones he congregates with.

I then walk into the bodega down the street and the Dominican at the counter asked me if I'm from Santiago.

Can anyone spot the difference in the two scenarios? One was friendly and inclusive, the other ignorant and antagonistic.

I can tell you that some young blacks and latinos in NYC have serious hang-ups about race, due to their profound ignorance and the fact that they only hang out in the 'hood and are exposed exclusively to other idiots like themselves.

In instances like the one I described, issues of race seem more of a starting point for jackasses to vent their special ed hostilities on those they believe society has given more to than them, as if the world owes them something. Not so with the Dominican, who unlike the losers I ran into in the chinese takeout place was working for a living.

 

[RacerX]

Part lack of opportunity, part lack of money to pay for a private school, part lack of motivation, part lack of role models. All the same reasons why poor children in America black or white perpetually have the most inept education.

Nope. That aint it. Poor people receive a poor education so that they don't have the ability to AND won't compete with children from more affluent families. They receive a poor education so that they don't/won't develop an animosity against a system they do not benefit from and make a viable means to thwart that system.

In America, poor children receive a poor education in order to steer them into the military to support goals of imperial expansion for the elite, or the prison system to make jobs for the more desirable poorer people not to challenge their position in the same oppressive system where they also do not benefit(Notice that in both examples, there is always a bogeyman). Surely you noticed that America, the home of the free and land of the brave, has more people incarcerated than any other country per capita, haven't you?

You are way over thinking this. Most politicians are just as uneducated as the masses. They don't invest in education because 1. they don't see it as very important 2. they operate on pure greed and the more money they can take the better. They don't think long term, there is no conspiracy to keep the masses uneducated so they won't try to take over the government. I honestly feel that if old money was running the country it would be better for the poor people because they would want an educated workforce. What we have now in government is career thieves. Look at Trujillo and Balaguer regimes they both invested heavily in education but at the same time held power in the hands of very few elites.

That's wrong also. You want me to believe that running a kleptocracy is a haphazard affair? Oh if you believe that you are not in tune to how politics really work. I'll just take 30% of any municipal operating budget and no one is the wiser. It's all smoke and mirrors? If I know a guy is going to take 30% of the money that belongs to the people off the top why would I still give him the money? Because he is greedy and no one cares? No, it's is because if he takes it from the right place(the education budget) I'll reward him with more. You are under-thinking this matter. You do that thing people when you consider malfeasance an act of stupidity instead of what it is, diabolical. That whole Baninter affair wasnt a big deal until IMF auditors wondered where $2 Billion dollars went.

I am sorry you are not satisfied with the nepotism answer but that IS the biggest reason. In a small island with limited opportunities people give the good jobs to people they know. Unfortunately in Dominican society relationships trump competence.

There are no limited opportunities in the Dominican Republic. There is mismanagement of everything. Diabolically nefarious mismanagement. If you go down a street and only the first 400 yards are paved there is an opportunity. If you get on a street like Carretera Don Pedro in Santiago and supposedly it is a highway but actually is a 2 lane road, with one lane each direction, there is an opportunity. If you send your children to an overcrowded school for 4 hours an day, there is an opportunity. If you cannot get power consistently for more than 10 consecutive hours a day there is your opportunity. If your only means of transportation is to stand on the corner and cram yourself and 6 other people into an old Toyota Corolla for 15 pesos, there is your opportunity. The argument that there are more people than jobs is a fallacious one. There is PLENTY of work that needs to be done. There is no will to actually do it. As much as people clamor they love family, it is a self-centered, selfish society. The reason things are awry here is the people with means can get the system to work for them and to hell with everyone else. And those people are never dark-skinned.

You, yourself always write about how incompetent "professionals" are in Dominican republic. I will same that SOME professionals are incompetent and other Dominicans can tell. If a person can not find a job maybe they are being unrealistic about their actual level of skill.

Well, lets put that to the DR1 test. Cobraboy as you mentioned below started a thread about the people at EDENORTE who wont give him a new meter when the old one melted. Robert started a thread about the people at CLARO who won't give him a new modem, but told me him he could buy one when he developed a problem in his line. There is another thread about CORASAAN where the personnel couldnt answer a simple question about how much does a cubic meter of water cost. See, I m not talking about people who aren't working. I refer to the people who do work and interact with people every day as representatives of their respective employers. And I didnt even talk about municipal nor government employees who primarily get their jobs through political patronage and therefore are always at a learning curve with respect to occupational competence.

Professionals from all over the work leave their country to make a "better" living. Why they do it? reasons vary. . It could be that they are just mediocre and so they don't make money with their trade. It could be that the lure of the US is stronger than the love for their profession. For example, look at omega, lets call him a professional musician. He makes money in DR he travels the world but he came to US and now he doesn't want to leave. It's not because he couldn't make money in DR is because he wanted to live in Nuevayol all his life.

I ll leave Omega out of this, his musicianship is a stretch by any measure. But to answer your first two questions. They may leave because a profession in the US is a profession. In the DR, a job title is a profession. I have a lot of female friends who are nurses and want me to inquire if they can get a job as a nurse in the US. I tell them no. What you consider nursing in Santiago doesn't qualify as nursing in the US. Nursing is a profession in the US backed with substantiative education. In the DR, a nurse is just a caretaker for the patient when the doctor isn't present.

If it's so bad why did everybody make fun of Sammy Sosa? Like I said is not so much about rejection but seen more as an improvement.

People did make fun of Sosa and still do.

As far as make up goes you are a man don't even try to understand why women all over the world wear makeup. We just do.

I'm not commenting on WHY women wear makeup. I'm making a correlation as to why would you choose the most uncomplimentary colors for your skin tone? Why would you choose skin tones meant for a lighter woman? Before Toni Braxton, Halle Berry, Beyonce, and Queen Latifah were spokeswomen for Maybelline and Revlon there were MANY cosmetic companies catering to women of darker hues.

and as to why are most of the rich people white? well it goes waaayyy back. and if you read a lot of them are immigrants that came with money to the island. Read composicion social Dominicana. You will see that DR was a very very poor country with poor people of all colors. For a very long time all the wealth was held by a very small group. Then you will see how nepotism created the society with live with today.

Will you stop saying it is a poor country. If you come from Europe you came with nothing. You claim that they came with money(that had no value in another country 3000 miles away), but thats not what happened. They came with "the law", "religion" and "land reform". They gave the Tainos religion and took their land. Then proceeded to steal everything that wasn't bolted down and re-distribute what was. Haiti was the most profitable colony in the French Empire in 1800 and now the poorest country in the hemisphere? What's missing? Well, if the thieving bastards can't take it all for themselves then no one can.

I think Chip, Cobraboy, and a few other have it right when it comes to Dominicans. They are married into Dominican families. I think when you finally get the chance to belong full time to a Dominican family you will have a better understanding (that's if you every choose to become part of a Dominican family.)

You don't have enough information to make the latter statement, but I'll share something with you. I was married to a Dominican woman from Jarabacoa, for 10 years. So what do they see that I don't see? Or maybe I saw more than they saw because I was looking at it differently?

I don't think anybody on this board has the right to say someone is not Dominican enough. BUT there are certain attitudes that aren't very Dominican are more American. The OP I can tell is very Americanized and probably has a lot of African American friends.

I'm not the OP, mountainannie is, but if no one has the right to say if someone is Dominican enough, then also you can't dictate if some random person doesn't live in the country then their interpretation of the culture is unwarranted and without merit.

You should have left it at... I don't know your family.... I really had to laugh out loud for this one. Tu quieres buscarle la quinta pata al gato. No need to go into my family's finances. Just be happy that for this bunch of morenitos life is getting better as time goes by.

I could care less about your family finances. And don't wanna know. The conclusive point is that if they live on credit they aren't middle class.

 

[cobraboy]

And I love how the white foreigner comes here and says that because the Dominican doesn't talk openly about skin color it holds no recurrent theme in their lives. And only by living here can you understand that. Ha! You didn't have to live in South Africa to know apartheid was wrong. You don't have to live through a tsunami to know that things were bad in Indonesia in 2004. That's like telling a Dominican from New Jersey that he is "not Dominican enough" ,or "he is not a true Dominican", to be able to criticize the Dominican culture because he doesn't live there. From afar you can tell how bad things as well as up close. Especially when it comes to wasted potential and mismanagement of human capital.

White, huh?:tired:

Because you're an occasional tourist you really don't understand. However, you ~think~ you do. That's what tourists just don't "get" and prolly never will.

This is a completely different place when you live and make your living here 24/7/365. People treat you differently in the lifeboat. A tourist, no matter how frequently they come to the DR, is still a tourist. You don't see it because you don't live here.

And the harsh reality IS that there are many, many more people here, including hundreds of thousands of un/underemployed "professionals", than there are jobs. Fact. That's one reason many here don't aspire to higher edumacation: it's hard to see a real payback and self-actualization doesn't put yucca en la mesa. I have met more college educated clerks here that I ever thought existed.

Yes, there are areas where one may think "opportunity." I thought that once myself, being a serial capitalist who hasn't drawn an actual paycheck from an employer in 25 years. However, the challenge is getting someone to compensate you at a livable wage for the "opportunistic" good or service you offer. Is there opportunity if no one is willing to pay for it?

This theme has been beaten to death. Once again, American black tourists just do NOT understand that Dominicans in the DR do not view race and color through the same lenses as they do. And, obviously, it frustrates the hell out of them.

 

[bob saunders]

In America, poor children receive a poor education in order to steer them into the military to support goals of imperial expansion for the elite, or the prison system to make jobs for the more desirable poorer people not to challenge their position in the same oppressive system where they also do not benefit(Notice that in both examples, there is always a bogeyman). Surely you noticed that America, the home of the free and land of the brave, has more people incarcerated than any other country per capita, haven't you?

- in the USA poor people can receive a good education and have sucessful careers in almost any profession. There are millions of former poor people that are now rich sucessful people. Even in the DR the government offers scholarships for poor people to go to University both in and out of country. Colour is not part of the equation in either case.


The reason things are awry here is the people with means can get the system to work for them and to hell with everyone else. And those people are never dark-skinned.

--Hogwash. You are correct about the corruption AND incompetence - the system is colour blind.


Will you stop saying it is a poor country. If you come from Europe you came with nothing. You claim that they came with money(that had no value in another country 3000 miles away), but thats not what happened.

---- The majority of the rich people in the DR came well after 1792. The Vicini's....etc. The Lebanese....etc.


You don't have enough information to make the latter statement, but I'll share something with you. I was married to a Dominican woman from Jarabacoa, for 10 years. So what do they see that I don't see? Or maybe I saw more than they saw because I was looking at it differently?

---- Ever stop to think you saw less because you were looking at things differently. That board you carry on your shoulders limits your observation skills. We all see the world through different eyes, your experiences may have made you less objective, not more.


I could care less about your family finances. And don't wanna know. The conclusive point is that if they live on credit they aren't middle class.

-------Middle Class around the world, especially in the USA are losing their homes...etc because they were living beyond their means. Credit debt is a huge problem in Canada and the USA.
Credit, once very hard to get in the DR, has become easier, resulting in more Dominicans have the same credit issues AS North Americans.

 

[Africaida]

Here's a funny little story-I went into the takeout chinese place in my neighborhood and as I'm waiting for my order a fellow Latino, a young man in his late teens, stated loud enough for me to hear how much he hates white boys as he glared at me through the mirror hanging on the wall. As I was the only other person standing there besides his friends, I figured he was talking about me.

I politely let him know I'm Puerto Rican, was born on the island and speak fluent Spanish, which he did not even though he told me he was Boriqua. Turns out he's never been to the island. If he did he would have realized that Puerto Ricans come in all different colors and that not all of us are mulatto-skinned thugs with Caesar haircuts like the ones he congregates with.

I then walk into the bodega down the street and the Dominican at the counter asked me if I'm from Santiago.

Can anyone spot the difference in the two scenarios? One was friendly and inclusive, the other ignorant and antagonistic.

I can tell you that some young blacks and latinos in NYC have serious hang-ups about race, due to their profound ignorance and the fact that they only hang out in the 'hood and are exposed exclusively to other idiots like themselves.

In instances like the one I described, issues of race seem more of a starting point for jackasses to vent their special ed hostilities on those they believe society has given more to than them, as if the world owes them something. Not so with the Dominican, who unlike the losers I ran into in the chinese takeout place was working for a living.

Great example!! Unfortunately, ignorance comes in all colors.
I have a PR friend who is brown hair with blue eyes, things like that happens to her all the time or she get complimented for her excellent Spanish :cheeky:

 

[xamaicano]

Maybe you don't think there is some worldwide black culture but many blacks in the US do. It would be great too if all Americans thought of themselves as Americans first, but many don't.

Blacks in America define themselves that way because they have always been defined as other by white Americans. Their collective identity was created and defined by whites. It is very disingenuous of you to now say "it would be great" if they did not. They weren't consider humans for quite a while much less Americans yet now the fact that they see themselves as other is some how their creation. The reality is, black Americans in foreign countries tend to be less flexible in adapting to local culture than whites and identify very much with being American. It is only back home that they are perceived as less American.

 

[xamaicano]

And the harsh reality IS that there are many, many more people here, including hundreds of thousands of un/underemployed "professionals", than there are jobs. Fact. That's one reason many here don't aspire to higher edumacation: it's hard to see a real payback and self-actualization doesn't put yucca en la mesa. I have met more college educated clerks here that I ever thought existed.

You are absolutely correct. However, it does not not negate racial disparity in opportunities that exists because of historical factors.

Acknowledging racism does not negate the class issues that exists. Nor does it make all white people racist. It is not a either/or proposition. This extreme defensiveness or shall I say denial is counterproductive.

I don't have to live in the DR to understand the dynamic. It is exists elsewhere, it isn't anything unique to the DR. As a black visitor I see it more than you even if you live here because I see the contrast in how I am treated. Whether you want to believe it or not, you are treated differently than I am and there are consideration I have to make regardless of my education, my dress or how I carry myself when I visit certain places.

 

[RacerX]

White, huh?:tired:

Because you're an occasional tourist you really don't understand. However, you ~think~ you do. That's what tourists just don't "get" and prolly never will.

This is a completely different place when you live and make your living here 24/7/365. People treat you differently in the lifeboat. A tourist, no matter how frequently they come to the DR, is still a tourist. You don't see it because you don't live here.

And the harsh reality IS that there are many, many more people here, including hundreds of thousands of un/underemployed "professionals", than there are jobs. Fact. That's one reason many here don't aspire to higher edumacation: it's hard to see a real payback and self-actualization doesn't put yucca en la mesa. I have met more college educated clerks here that I ever thought existed.

Yes, there are areas where one may think "opportunity." I thought that once myself, being a serial capitalist who hasn't drawn an actual paycheck from an employer in 25 years. However, the challenge is getting someone to compensate you at a livable wage for the "opportunistic" good or service you offer. Is there opportunity if no one is willing to pay for it?

This theme has been beaten to death. Once again, American black tourists just do NOT understand that Dominicans in the DR do not view race and color through the same lenses as they do. And, obviously, it frustrates the hell out of them.

This guy? He knows all there is to know. You sound like one of them old Sheriffs in the US South in the 1960s who wax prolific about the humility of their Negroes and how they didn't need any Northern agitators down there working for civil rights. It is a literal analogy, save for 50 years. Lets paraphrase the statement you made, exchange a few words and see if it makes sense, especially to contemporary crowd of Dominican Yorks.

The only way to understand the island is to be on the island consistently, immersing myself with the incompetents and social plutocrats? So by proxy, the only way to be understand the illegal drug problem is to be an addict and surrounded by junkies.

Furthermore, they don't aspire to anything or value education because the greatest lesson you can learn in a Kleptocracy is "I gotta get paid, by hook or crook." Paying dues and political patronage are actions averse to one another. Paying dues requires me to prepare myself and make an effort, start at one place and progress to the next. Cronyism, party positions and patronage require none of that. Its like when Gershwin wrote "Summertime, and the living is easy."

And with respect to opportunity, if a low level, ambitious diputado saw a way to make a name for himself he could use those usurped funds and make himself the voice of the people. It doesnt happen EVER because he receives the word from his superiors that there is no accountability, so sit here at the trough and fatten yourself.

Lets clarify something to see if that racism/colorism thing really exists on this island, when a Black guy from outside the country gets rejected from a club because there is a "private affair" and comes on DR1 and curses the place everyone is all in an uproar. But what about the Black Dominican? I am curious, as always, to know what is ruminating in his head as to why HE was rejected or refused entry? Were his shoes not fancy enough? Not shiny enough? Were his clothes not perma-press? Could he not pay the entry fee? Was his cologne foul? You say that these people dont care about that stuff? Maybe they do. But dont feel there is a venue that they have in this culture to express that resentment. In comes the Dominican York with an entirely different temperament....

In another thread we were talking about Colombia. I asked the pertinent question about the civil war, how did it get started and who started it and what are the objectives? It would benefit people to inquire WHY there is a civil war in Colombia...for 35 years? There is just as much economic disparity and social inequality in Colombia as there is in DR. Yet I dont live in Colombia but I can see how that makes sense. Do I need to go down there and live there for 365 days, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for 20 years? Or should I just consider the amount of armaments they receive from the US? Or the fact that the Colombian military is trained by the US School of the Americas? Or that the US has 9 military posts in Colombia, 3 in Ecuador, and airbase in Peru? The amount of money sent back through remittances to Colombia? The amount of women who whore themselves just like in the Dominican Republic for some guy to send them money or extract them from the mire. And all of this is because of economic disparity and social inequality?

 

[Chip]

It is very disingenuous of you to now say "it would be great" if they did not.

Actually my viewpoint is skewed by my Catholic upbringing; whereby man's personal identity is defined by the fact that the Creator made him in His image and is in many aspects inherrently good, in spite of what society may tell him. Furthermore, when all is said and done being any color will be no excuse or reason for going to heaven.

 

[Robert]

Good job guys. You know race is not allowed, but some of you just can't seem to help yourselves.

Maybe it would be better if I just started erasing peoples accounts that don't understand the meaning of...

No RACE or RELIGIOUS related threads.

Closed.