El voseo rioplatense

Status
Not open for further replies.

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
In today's column Bien Dicho (a section of el Nuevo Herald) the topic is El voseo rioplatenese. As some of you know or have heard 'vos' forms are used and written by some Spanish speakers. Please note this form is not to be confused with the 'vosotros' form used in Spain only. In Latin America the equivalent of 'vosotros' is ustedes. El voseo is the equivalent of the t? forms in standard Spanish verb form conjugation.

The usage of 'el voseo' has been officially approved by the local language body in Argentina, la Academia Argentina de Letras (an affiliate of the RAE) which means forms like 'sos', 'habl?s', 'ven?s' etc. have been accepted as official forms of the Spanish language. These verb forms are included in the on-line RAE dictionary beside the t? form in the present tense of all verbs. For example:

Sos= eres
Habl?s= hablas
Ven?s= vienes

El voseo ('vos') usage is common in the R?o de la Plata region of Latin America which includes Argentina, Uruguay and Chile. However, you will also hear voseo forms used in a few Central American countries. It is also worthy to note the voseo forms in Chile differ from Argentina and Uruguay.

Here is an excerpt from today's column:

Posted on Sun, Jul. 09, 2006

BIEN DICHO

Es mala noticia para los puristas de la lengua que el voseo haya sido reconocido por la Academia Argentina de Letras.

Se define como voseo el empleo de vos para dirigirse al interlocutor.

Aunque el fen?meno tiene diferentes grados de aceptaci?n en los distintos pa?ses y regiones de habla hispana, esta forma ha sido aceptada con ciertas limitaciones en la norma culta de pa?ses como Chile.

En otros, como la mayor?a de los pa?ses centroamericanos, es ampliamente aceptado el llamado voseo rioplatense.

____________________

Musicqueen, please feel free to add to this. It would be helpful to all I am sure.



-LDG.
 

yoma

New member
Apr 10, 2006
36
0
0
Juanes, a popular Colombian singer, uses vos in his songs. So if anyone's interested in hearing it, try downloading or googling his songs :) One really popular one is A Dios le pido.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
My observations-

Colombia is one of the countries in Latin America where el voseo is used however, it's not considered a voseo -speaking country because it's not used country wide. The Caribbean Spanish speaking countries- Cuba, DR and PR don't use vos. From Central Americans I have heard voseo usage from Hondurans and Nicaraguans. I am not sure about the other Central American countries, however, definitely not in Panama. In South America, as mentioned it's a trait of the Rio de la Plata region but also heard in other countries in the area. The key aspect to note is that in other countries it's heard in certain pockets.

I will use Colombia as an example. In my experience in the coastal areas, Cartagena and Barranquilla I have never heard the usage. However, in the interior of the country and the south, Cali, Popayan, el Valle in general it's very common. This usage is an archaic form inherited from Spain during the colonial period. The usage has been phased out in Spain and the vestige has remained throughout Latin America although sporadic but is still very much part of the spoken language in Latin America today.


-LDG.
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
113
From somewhere in my dark mind, I seem to get a negative connotation of the "vos' uses in Central America. Something related to class....Indian usage??

I could be way off....

HB :D:D
 

ssasy

New member
Mar 5, 2006
70
0
0
I have a friend who is from Costa Rica and sometimes she uses "vos" and other times uses "tu" when talking to me. I didn't know Costa Rica used el voseo until I heard her. I don't understand how she sometimes chooses one over the other. Why is this?
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
ssasy-

You asked a good question and the best answer may reside with the speaker. The usage of 'vos' and 'tú' ties in with the bigger topic at hand which is subject pronoun usage in Spanish. However, keep in mind using one over the other while speaking has no grammatical difference. If a speaker is exposed to these forms because it's part of the regional speech most likely the usage will be adopted by the speaker.

For example speakers who don't use el voseo may find the usage confusing or even illogical and to extend this thought briefly the usage is shunned in some academic corners of Latin America. Although I have grown somewhat used to these forms because some of my friends use them I still struggle with the command forms that stem from el voseo. As referenced in the article forms like andá and andate instead of anda and ándate still throw me off when I hear them. The change in stress (accentuation) continues to sound strange to me.


-LDG.
 

monsoon68

New member
Dec 19, 2005
73
0
0
Sos= eres
Habl?s= hablas
Ven?s= vienes

My perception, as a user, is that Argentinians were supressing vowels of the 2nd person plural. I have associated:

vos sos = vosotros so(i)s
vos hablas = vosotros habla(i)s
vos venis = vosotros venis


"andate" - it could be the Italian legacy ("-ate").
 

juancarlos

Bronze
Sep 28, 2003
676
0
0
All of the five traditional Central American nations use voseo among themselves. Panama does not because Panama's speech is more Caribbean influenced. Mexicans do not use voseo either, except in areas bordering Guatemala, if at all. In some parts of Venezuela they use it, but Venezuela is mostly a tuteo country.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
Monsoon68 & Juancarlos-

Monsoon68- You could be right in your phonetic analysis of the forms that led to the creation of these 'vos' forms in the present tense only. Since I have no knowledge of Italian stress patterns I can't comment on whether the change in stress in the command form is due to the Italian influence centuries ago in the Rio de la Plata region.

Juan Carlos- You are correct regarding the Central American countries. I was able to find some information in some resources I have although none of the textbooks have the extensive detail that I would like to see. It is believed that in the western part of Panama only close to the Costa Rican border el voseo is used. I suspect they may be referring to Chiriquí province which is the closest to Costa Rica.

However, I used to know someone from that region and I never heard her use any of the voseo forms. On a side note you are absolutely right about Panamanian Spanish being Caribbean influenced. It's one of the reasons why I love hearing Panamanians from Panama City speak and for the most part one can say they speak very clearly.

Here is a sample from the RAE:

Presente- Tomar

tomo
tomas / tomás
toma
tomamos
tomáis / toman
toman

Imperativo

toma (tú) / tomá (vos) tomad (vosotros) / tomen (ustedes)

-LDG.
 
Last edited:

Musicqueen

Miami Nice!
Jan 31, 2002
2,252
4
0
Lesley...I don't know much about this, but I seem to remember in school back in Uruguay, that the 'vos' was just an abbreviation of the 'vosotros' form of the verb used by the Spaniards when they came to Argentina and Uruguay...

Nosotros, being lazy by their definition, started using 'vos' just to make the word shorter...and it's been used like that ever since...

monsoon68 is right in the post...

As for your post:

Sos= eres
Hablás= hablas
Venís= vienes

Vosotros sois...would be the Castillian way...Vos sos...is OUR way...
Vosotros hablais........Vos hablás...
Vosotros venís..........Vos venís...

I think it's actually kind of cute that we have adopted this way of speaking, makes us unique...although I don't remember anyone talking like that in Chile...(remember I was married to a Chilean for 15 years)

As far as Central America, I've noticed some countries using the 'voseo'...but definetely not as widely spread as the way Uruguay and Argentina use it...

MQ
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,849
984
113
Certainly in Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala - which I know well - 'tú' is hardly ever heard. 'Vos' predominates.

I was told that in some of these places both are in fact used, and that one is more familiar than the other, but I can't remember which was which.

I thought 'vos' was an archaic form that has endured in the places mentioned but has disappeared in other parts of the Spanish-speaking world.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
MQ & Chiri-

MQ-

This is good info and that's why I like having these discussions because these are obscure topics in Spanish which I always find linguistic info to be limited unless material is purchased in country. El Nuevo Herald is doing a fabulous job with the column I wonder how many others like me are reading it daily. I actually save the columns that are of interest to me and that I know I will need as a reference down the road.

Anyway you enlightened me about the 'vos' being a short form of 'vosotros' and you confirmed monsoon68's analysis regarding the phonetic forms of the verbs. Now I still have one question which I noticed this morning. In the on-line version of the RAE not all verb forms in the present tense have the equivalent 'vos' form beside the 'tú' form. Why is that? Do you know? For example when I looked at the verb tomar it had the equivalent form which I included in my post above but when I looked at the verb conjugation for 'estar' in the present tense there is no equivalent 'voseo' form. In standard Spanish se dice 'tú estás'. What is the equivalent 'vos' form? - vos estás.

Edited- I think I answered my own question. Maybe because the form is the same using 'tú' and 'vos'. I just realized this when I wrote it.

As well, according to my references Chile has it's own 'voseo' forms that are used in Chile. The few Chileans that I have met along way did use el voseo. Therefore maybe the usage is limited to certain areas and demographics. In Central America it's become the norm except for Panama. I always hear voseo forms used by Central Americans especially the commands which I find really phonetically challenging. For example one time I was in the mall and a young lady was telling her son 'sentate' and I was so tempted to say do you mean 'siéntate?'- which is the standard.


Chiri-

El voseo is very much part of the Spanish-speaking world today estimated at 30% + usage. The only places where it has been completed erradicated are: Peru, Spain, DR, PR and Cuba. Other than that it is dominant in the Rio de la Plata region and other LA countries known as 'partially voseo-speaking countries'.


-LDG.
 
Last edited:

juancarlos

Bronze
Sep 28, 2003
676
0
0
I just wanted to add that Vos existed in Spanish as the singular form of vosotros and it was conjugated the same way. In fact this was the correct way. Vos was used to adrress important people, but then in Latin America it lost prestige and became just another word for tú. In the meantime, another word to show respect had developed: usted, an abreviation of Vuestra Merced. Same thing in Portuguese with their voce (can't put the circumflex accent on the e there). So, usted became the standard word and Vos lost its original meaning. Vos used be the Spanish equivalent of the French Vous. Today, only the plural form (vosotros) is used in Spain.

I think a similar process may be affecting the use of usted in some countries, Colombia in particular, where just about everyone seems to use usted to address everyone, it's almost becoming like tú or vos. I have read that in some parts of Latin America so many people employed vos that it lost prestige and became informal, just like tú.
 
Last edited:

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
Juancarlos-

You touched on a important topic that's outside of the scope of this thread but I wanted to briefly comment because it's interesting.

One of greatest challenges of language professionals of the Spanish language whether it is professors, teachers, linguists, translators, interpreters etc. is understanding and using the variety the language has to offer in the proper context. There are some who still believe that spoken Spanish is the same across the board and to a certain extent it is true. However, chances are their scope of the language is very limited and they have not worked in any of the professional fields I mentioned above. Having said this good translators and linguists analyze their documents before even attempting to translate them and that's what one is supposed to do. Decipher what country the document is from, who it is targeted towards, check for regional vocabulary, expressions, specific grammar points of that country and then attempt the translation.

Having said this you hit the nail on the head about the usage of 'usted' in Colombia. According to great analytical data that I have reviewed Colombia and Venezuela are considered the two most formal countries in the Spanish-speaking world and the Caribbean countries are considered the most informal. All the others are middle the road and the usage of subject pronouns such as t?, usted and vos depend on the country and to whom one is speaking. The natives of each particular country know the norms.

This is important to know because one can unintentionally offend someone by using 't?' instead of 'usted' and vice versa believe it or not. I agree that the usage in Colombia is extensive as compared to other countries but I don't agree as much that it is losing its importance. The usted forms are used extensively in the spoken language and carry the respect that it should at least for Colombians.

Basically, what I am saying is the usage of which subject pronoun really depends on cultural factors and the same holds true in the written language. Translators have broken Latin American Spanish into categories which is necessary to render a good product. For example some of the divisions are:

*Espa?ol Amaz?nico
*Espa?ol Caribe?o
*Espa?ol Centroamericano
*Espa?ol Chileno
*Espa?ol Peruano
*Espa?ol Rioplatense o Espa?ol Porte?o

I just listed a few but there are more divisions. Each has certain features and characteristics of regional speech ranging from the usage of t? or usted or vos to the radical grammar and sentence structure that are predominant in Dominican, Cuban and Puerto Rican Spanish.


-LDG.
 
Last edited:

ryba

New member
Apr 4, 2008
1
0
0
Hello, guys. :)

Lesley...I don't know much about this, but I seem to remember in school back in Uruguay, that the 'vos' was just an abbreviation of the 'vosotros' form of the verb used by the Spaniards when they came to Argentina and Uruguay...

Nosotros, being lazy by their definition, started using 'vos' just to make the word shorter...and it's been used like that ever since...

Vosotros is much younger than VOS. Vos is the second person plural form in latin. It then passed to be a form that indicates respect or social distance (hence vous in French referred to ONE person). In Spanish it slowly passed to be an equivalent of t? because USTED had become the formal form.

So, vos is not vosotros - otros.
Vosotros is vos + otros.

They probably added "-otros" to evitate confusion* between vos (plural) and vos (singular), and that is why it is used ONLY in Spain (in American Spanish the confusion didn't exist because they stopped using the plural vos and opted for USTEDES for both formal and informal situations).

* An interesting fact that maybe not all of you know: all the English-speaking countries use a kind of "voseo". ;)
YOU was the 2nd person plural form, the 2nd singular form being THOU!!!


And well, the accent in commands is not MISPLACED.

Note that the old voseo/plural vos forms are:

cantad
tened
decid.

If you get rid of the final -d, you get:

cant?
ten?
dec?.

One more thing. The monoptongued forms (ten?s and not ten?is, cant?s and not cant?is) appeared in Spain, not in America. If you make a search for "ten?s" in the Corpus Diacr?nico of the RAE, you'll find many examples the 15th and 16th centuries from Spain.:)


Chiri-

El voseo is very much part of the Spanish-speaking world today estimated at 30% + usage. The only places where it has been completed erradicated are: Peru, Spain, DR, PR and Cuba. Other than that it is dominant in the Rio de la Plata region and other LA countries known as 'partially voseo-speaking countries'.


-LDG.
Yeah, but even in Per? there are people who voseo (in some areas near Chile and Colombia). And I read in Cuba there was a little pocket where it was used but it has no prestige there.

I think it's actually kind of cute that we have adopted this way of speaking, makes us unique...although I don't remember anyone talking like that in Chile...(remember I was married to a Chilean for 15 years)
But you surely have heard cant?i (=cantas), ten?s (=tienes) and (dec?s=dices), haven't you?

Voseo In Chile
As far as Central America, I've noticed some countries using the 'voseo'...but definetely not as widely spread as the way Uruguay and Argentina use it...

MQ
Because they use more USTED. T? sounds gay in Costa Rica. :D


More on VOSEO.
 

sonya1233

New member
Feb 20, 2009
1
0
0
To clarify the use of vos in some of the central american countries, pues - vos is used in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Costa Rica. En Guatemala, vos is used for people you are close to and know well. If you are speaking to someone you just met, or are acquaintances with, it is best to use usted. The use of t? in many areas is considered too familiar and almost rude. In Costa Rica, some of the people feel that the use of t? is snobby because it is more ?European? (i.e. Spain) as opposed to the ?Central American? vos (in the sense that almost all Central American countries use vos except for Panam? and M?xico) - there is a solidarity in using vos among the central americans. As for Nicaragua, El Salvador and Honduras, I?m not familiar with the peculiarities, however I know that it is used in those countries.
 

OscarDeLaRenta

New member
Nov 24, 2008
43
2
0
Parts of Colombia don't use vos with familiar people, and instead use tu. Paraguay is an exception as well, because although they tend to use vos more than tu because of their proximity to Argentina especially in Asuncion, they generally speak Guarani, not Castilian.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
History & peculiarities-

I normally don't post in revived threads from years ago and especially if the poster who revived it is a one off who read the thread randomly on the internet. However, the post touches on key aspects of voseo usage in Central America even though the commentary is brief it's precise.

The usage of vos as an alternate for t? in Latin America cannot be summarized collectively. I am sure those who have knowledge about its usage are clear regarding its distinctions. In Argentina, it's part of their vernacular as noted in my first post via the article and was only officially approved in 2006 by the RAE's affiliate and local language body la Academia Argentina de Letras as an official form. The usage is prevalent in El R?o de la Plata area of South America.

As the poster sonya1233 noted, the usage in Central America is unique. Collectively, as a region the usage amongst Central Americans (excluding Belize)- Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Costa Rica shows solidarity. Subsequently, the usage of 'vos' in each country individually has its own context. The poster clarified how 'vos' is used amongst Guatemalans and I posted a thread recently on the usage of 't?' in Costa Rica from Naci?n a Costa Rican daily newspaper. Clarification is needed as to the peculiarities of its usage in Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua. I have read some interesting details regarding Honduras and that 'vos' is used among family and good friends however, in my own experience with a few Hondurans that I have met that was not the case. Two months ago, I met a Honduran and his first question was 'de d?nde sos vos'. One example is not sufficient to draw conclusions but without knowing me other speakers would have used usted or t?. My experience with many Salvadoreans is very little usage of 'vos' and when used it's mostly at the end of phrases. Maybe with other Salvadoreans the usage is more prevalent.

The rest of usage heard in Latin America are in the partially voseo-speaking countries as mentioned in my post above. Countries where a segment of population uses voseo forms is evidence of vestiges of its usage that obviously have not been completed eradicated. This ties back to colonization, 'los virenatos' (viceroy) and centers of education in the New World. Depending on when Spaniards came to each Latin country changes in the language will have impacted the Spanish spoken there (in the New World). Peru and Mexico were large centers of education thus the eradication of 'vos'. In my experience, Peruvians do not use 'vos' in spite of what was posted above by one poster and definitely not Peruvians from Lima, an old colonial city that had a strong educational history. However, it may be possible in small towns far away from large cities. Colombia is an example too where it's used by a segment of population, mostly by departamento one can predict if 'vos' will be used. A friend of mine from Popay?n, (departamento- Cauca) uses voseo and t? forms but notably is more comfortable and instinctive with the 'vos' verbs forms. Once again the peculiarities differ by region and by country.

Those of you who know a bit about Latin American history should be able to make the connection regarding the Central American solidarity. This is not only a linguistic issue, clearly there a many linguistic similarities among the five countries, but it was a unified region at one point. Panama is a stand alone because it was part of La Gran Colombia before gaining it's independence as a country. As well, some will argue that since it's a bridge between the Atlantic and Pacific, is it really part of Central or South America. From a linguistic point of view, Spanish in Panama in a broad sense is not similar lexically to the rest of Central America. However, similarities do exist especially outside of Panama City and provinces close to Costa Rica namely Chiriqu?.

My standpoint regarding voseo is the usage is particular to speakers mentioned in the areas of above- R?o de la Plata, Central Americans and partially voseo-speaking countries. Although it was an approved as an official form in Argentina, it's not considered part of standard Spanish grammar. Spanish speakers from all regions understand those who use 'vos' forms, however, foreigners who desire to learn voseo verbs forms makes no sense. IMO, it's equivalent to foreigners in the DR who pick up the bad habits of vernacular speech as evidenced in many posts for example, 'mi do chele and 'qu? t?' piensa(s)' etc. There's definitely a fine line between wanting to sound local and sounding ridiculous.

I also recommend reading literature by Latin American authors, which clearly depict the vernacular language including 'el voseo usage'.


LDG/ MPLTA
 
Status
Not open for further replies.