Haiti poised for Civil War?

melphis

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Apr 18, 2013
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Haiti can’t dig itself out of hole, simply because there’s nothing out of that hole to hold-on to.

Like I said, it needs to be started from scratch.
Provide ID for all people, registry on a national level. Toss French and Kreyol from the schools, and make Spanish official.

From there all else is just new to Haiti.
From scratch.
Build it right and keep it right.

No reason not to achieve food security quickly, by putting the cooperative system in the farms.
Labor is aplenty.

A true national police that covers the entire country. Some 30,000 officers.

911 system. Hospitals. Schools. Colleges. Ports.
Water. Electricity. Waste management.

Ban charcoal and provide subsidy for natural gas.
Plant 🌱 trees. Declare protected areas.
Redo the AI tourism sector, copy Punta Cana.

After that anything is possible in Haiti.
Most poor people own the land they live on and can obtain funding using that land as collateral from true banks.

When security is reignited, the investors from the diaspora will pour right back into Haiti.
In your dreams.
Not even in you great, great, (I could go on for ever here) will that ever happen here or anywhere on earth as we know it.
Great fairy tale to tell the young ones but it will never happen
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
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Interesting, I guess this is one of the major detriments of the history of European colonialism. Much of Africa has different ethnic groups being divided over multiple nations. I think the name Haiti originates from Taino origins.
I does originate from Taino origins. It was the name of a section of the island southwest of the Samaná peninsula where there are many elevations, hence the name of the national park that protects it is Los Haitises, which is the plural version of haiti. Ironically, the greatest Taino ancestry is found among Dominicans based on several DNA tests that have been done.

This one is from 23andme. Interesting how indigenous DNA in the Caribbean is mostly found in the people from the Spanish Caribbean. The English and French descriptions often mention a "genocide" by the Spanish against the Native people, yet DNA evidence shows that its precisely in Spanish countries of the Americas where Native DNA is the highest. What type of "genocide" was this when results regarding this should be among the least in Spanish areas and more in the English and French areas of the Americas. lol
q1zD6N.jpg


There is basically no real genetic connection between the people who originated the word and almost all the Haitian people then and now. In fact, it wasn't even used much for about 300 years between the 1500's and the time the Haitians gained their independence.
 
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PICHARDO

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May 15, 2003
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In reality...
The western side of the island was referenced as “Ayiti” by the local Taínos in the writings of fry Bartolome de Las Casas.

Ayiti denoted land of high peaks, which was pretty much all of then Haiti, prior to Dominicans ceding the Hinché plains to them.

The name for the entire island was Kiskeya or Quisqueya, meaning Mother of all Lands.

They also used “Bohío” as interchanged for “home” when talking of location. “Bohío” was their main house in the tribe’s Cacicazgos.

The name derided for the Los Haitises national park, comes about the name provided to the colonos by the mestizos and castizos born in that area of the Cacicazgo of Higüey.
Much like the name “Sabana” or “Savanna” denotes a large plain with little tree coverage, the noun Ayiti was used to reference hilltops as well. It was interchangeable in reference to mountainous areas as well.

By the time the conquistadores settled in the island, much of the Taino populations of Xaragua and Marien Cacicazgos had fled to nearby Cuba and Jamaica.

The myth of Ayiti being used as the name of the island by Taínos, is based on how under the Haitian occupation this was imposed as de facto by the victors. It’s a fact, that settles as much as the name of Santo Domingo and Saint Domingue was one and the same, but French occupiers used this to delineate their possession of the western side of the island.

There’s isn’t and never was a Saint Domingue in the western side. It was a borrowed moniker of the time from the existing Santo Domingo.
 

NALs

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That's all great, but most of the mountain ranges in Haiti aren't higher than those in the DR. A simple relief map shows this very clearly. It's also incorrect that "all of Haiti was mountainous before they gained the Guava Valley (where Hincha is located, today's Central Plateau)." For one, the name the Haitians give to that area is correct, it's a plateau. The biggest plains in Haiti are the Artibonite Valley (near its coast was the cotton plantation of the Desdunes family, considered to be the best and most sought after cotton in the world), the Plain-du-Nord (where some of the most productive sugar plantations were located) which is basically the final and coastal part of the Cibao Valley, and Cul-de-Sac in the Port-au-Prince area.The plains where Les Cayes is located appears to be of a greater size than most though smalker than the previous three, but not much is said about this place. Anyway, all of them were in Saint-Domingue and later Haiti from the start of the French colony, well before the modifications of the border in 1929 and 1935.

The one thing that Haiti has that is largely missing in the DR except in places like Barahona or parts of the Azua coastline mountains reach the very coast. In the Dominican side they get close, but not as close as in Haiti.

]
1616270216988.jpeg
 
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USA DOC

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Feb 20, 2016
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Do you think, based on the recent evidence the large USA is a proper democracy. Can a real independent run for president there, yes technically. Think Solyndra, a far more expensive boondoggle that Punta Catalina. The DR is far from perfect but I think their vote counting is more accurate and honest than some countries.
Agree...
 

Tom F.

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Jan 1, 2002
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I does originate from Taino origins. It was the name of a section of the island southwest of the Samaná peninsula where there are many elevations, hence the name of the national park that protects it is Los Haitises, which is the plural version of haiti. Ironically, the greatest Taino ancestry is found among Dominicans based on several DNA tests that have been done.

This one is from 23andme. Interesting how indigenous DNA in the Caribbean is mostly found in the people from the Spanish Caribbean. The English and French descriptions often mention a "genocide" by the Spanish against the Native people, yet DNA evidence shows that its precisely in Spanish countries of the Americas where Native DNA is the highest. What type of "genocide" was this when results regarding this should be among the least in Spanish areas and more in the English and French areas of the Americas. lol
q1zD6N.jpg


There is basically no real genetic connection between the people who originated the word and almost all the Haitian people then and now. In fact, it wasn't even used much for about 300 years between the 1500's and the time the Haitians gained their independence.
Have you read the writings of Lynn Guitar on this issue of Taino influence in the Dominican culture. There were many more Tainos that remained after 1530's when some write they were wiped out. The short of it was Spanish intermarried and had children with Tianos and they became Spanish for census purposes in some cases. Then others were underreported due to taxing issues with Spanish control. I know when I have looked at population numbers in the late 1600's to the early 1900's, there was a rather small population on the Dominican side and a much more sustantional number in what is today Haiti. I worked in campos near Castillo when I was in Peace Corps and just looking at the people, there is definately Taino blood in some of the families. I also witnessed the campo living, food stuffs and the way the communities organize themselves and interact, I believe some of it goes back to their Taino roots. I have also been in the mountains up from Neiba and saw the same thing.
 
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Naked_Snake

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there was a rather small population on the Dominican side and a much more sustantional number in what is today Haiti.
That has always been the case specially after the French kickstarted their own slave trade over there in the early 1700's. Both countries' starting population post independence is also a reflection of this: Haiti began its independent existence with 300,000 souls, while DR did so with only 125,000 (in fact, from 1795 to the 1950's, PR even had more population than the DR, which was only changed with the pro-natalist policies of the Trujillo regime and the continued emigration of Ricans to the mainland).
 

PICHARDO

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May 15, 2003
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That has always been the case specially after the French kickstarted their own slave trade over there in the early 1700's. Both countries' starting population post independence is also a reflection of this: Haiti began its independent existence with 300,000 souls, while DR did so with only 125,000 (in fact, from 1795 to the 1950's, PR even had more population than the DR, which was only changed with the pro-natalist policies of the Trujillo regime and the continued emigration of Ricans to the mainland).


Those were Dominican families that had moved to both PR and Cuba during the Haitian control.
Many families in the DR have direct links to both places, and most instances these at those islands trace their ancestry back to the Colonos in the DR.

I have family trees both in Cuba and PR that trace back to the 1800’s.

The Taínos didn’t become extinct in DR. They mixed into the Colonos and this was because it was very normal for their culture to have sex with anybody they liked, without worries based on tribal issues or relationships. Colonos found this better than having to legally marry in order to have a partner in the island and therefore pay more taxes due to household increases.

There were Taínos, mestizos and castizos. The pure blood Taino and the pure blood Spaniard.
The offspring of these two, became a Mestizo.
The offspring of a Mestizo and Spaniard was a Castizo. A Castizo with a Spaniard went back to full Spaniard.

The Taínos never mixed really much, if at all, with blacks due to the slavery factor of the race color. Their tribal culture was the main reason for this, not racism.

Most Dominican families with ancestry to the colonos, have Taino DNA in them.
One of the easiest ways to spot which is mixed with black or with Taino stronger than the other, it’s a traditional way: Sun tanning!
Europeans will turn red like 🍎 apples under constant sunlight.

The light skinned Dominicans that fall into this category received very few Taino DNA traits from their mothers.
My sisters 4 of them fall into this category. Out of three of my both parent’s bros, only one also doesn’t tan at all.
Some of us, received more Taino DNA than the others and do fully tan under the sunlight.

Darker skinned Dominicans also fall into this category. The more African DNA, the less the odds of tanning, if at all.

You can verify this using DNA results after you check with the tanning results. Has yet to fail for those of us with deep roots in the DR.

We placed bets on this after some arguments as to why this happened in the family and later tested with ancestry DNA swabs.

The results were outstanding! We didn’t know this could happen, even between brothers of the same parents!

A good 15 to 18 percent of Dominicans have Amerindian markers in our mitochondrial DNA. This is average, with some having higher rates and others lower.

I bronze nicely under sunlight!

Something else worth noting is the Taínos didn’t have much inbreeding compared to other amerindians. This was a culture effect from their practice of mixing with others from other tribes and freedom of coupling. They welcomed relations with Spaniards as such.
 

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NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Have you read the writings of Lynn Guitar on this issue of Taino influence in the Dominican culture. There were many more Tainos that remained after 1530's when some write they were wiped out. The short of it was Spanish intermarried and had children with Tianos and they became Spanish for census purposes in some cases. Then others were underreported due to taxing issues with Spanish control. I know when I have looked at population numbers in the late 1600's to the early 1900's, there was a rather small population on the Dominican side and a much more sustantional number in what is today Haiti. I worked in campos near Castillo when I was in Peace Corps and just looking at the people, there is definately Taino blood in some of the families. I also witnessed the campo living, food stuffs and the way the communities organize themselves and interact, I believe some of it goes back to their Taino roots. I have also been in the mountains up from Neiba and saw the same thing.
Yes, the Cibao Valley was the densest part of the Taino population in the entire Caribbean. In fact, the meaning of Quisqueya is mother land.

There is a discrepancy on the actual number of Tainos at the time of discovery, but what is certain is that everywhere the Spanish went on the island they saw Tainos. They couldn't be two or three for that to happen. There were isolated Taino villages, for example west of Puerto Plata which was mostly a forest, well after the suppose "extinction."
 

bob saunders

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Yes, the Cibao Valley was the densest part of the Taino population in the entire Caribbean. In fact, the meaning of Quisqueya is mother land.

There is a discrepancy on the actual number of Tainos at the time of discovery, but what is certain is that everywhere the Spanish went on the island they saw Tainos. They couldn't be two or three for that to happen. There were isolated Taino villages, for example west of Puerto Plata which was mostly a forest, well after the suppose "extinction."
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/what-became-of-the-taino-73824867/ AN INTERESTING READ
 

AlterEgo

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Yes, the Cibao Valley was the densest part of the Taino population in the entire Caribbean. In fact, the meaning of Quisqueya is mother land.

There is a discrepancy on the actual number of Tainos at the time of discovery, but what is certain is that everywhere the Spanish went on the island they saw Tainos. They couldn't be two or three for that to happen. There were isolated Taino villages, for example west of Puerto Plata which was mostly a forest, well after the suppose "extinction."
I’ve tracked my husband’s paternal line back to Guayubin in Montecristi, his dna shows 10% indigenous Haiti & DR.

edit: I just checked ancestry and he has new results. Now only 5%! Daughter dropped to 2%. Before his Portugal was much higher than Spain, but now they match at 39% each.
 
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Naked_Snake

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I’ve tracked my husband’s paternal line back to Guayubin in Montecristi, his dna shows 10% indigenous Haiti & DR.

edit: I just checked ancestry and he has new results. Now only 5%! Daughter dropped to 2%. Before his Portugal was much higher than Spain, but now they match at 39% each.
In my case my final score in 23andMe is 59.8% Euro (52.2% Iberian, 7.6% Other Euro), 30.3% Sub-Saharan African, 7.7% Amerind and 2% Middle Eastern (Sephardic Jewish). The main source from my Iberian ancestry comes from the Portuguese towns of Beja and Faro, and for the African one, Senegambia, like most Domis of colonial stock.
 

Naked_Snake

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Those were Dominican families that had moved to both PR and Cuba during the Haitian control.
Many families in the DR have direct links to both places, and most instances these at those islands trace their ancestry back to the Colonos in the DR.

I have family trees both in Cuba and PR that trace back to the 1800’s.

The Taínos didn’t become extinct in DR. They mixed into the Colonos and this was because it was very normal for their culture to have sex with anybody they liked, without worries based on tribal issues or relationships. Colonos found this better than having to legally marry in order to have a partner in the island and therefore pay more taxes due to household increases.

There were Taínos, mestizos and castizos. The pure blood Taino and the pure blood Spaniard.
The offspring of these two, became a Mestizo.
The offspring of a Mestizo and Spaniard was a Castizo. A Castizo with a Spaniard went back to full Spaniard.

The Taínos never mixed really much, if at all, with blacks due to the slavery factor of the race color. Their tribal culture was the main reason for this, not racism.

Most Dominican families with ancestry to the colonos, have Taino DNA in them.
One of the easiest ways to spot which is mixed with black or with Taino stronger than the other, it’s a traditional way: Sun tanning!
Europeans will turn red like 🍎 apples under constant sunlight.

The light skinned Dominicans that fall into this category received very few Taino DNA traits from their mothers.
My sisters 4 of them fall into this category. Out of three of my both parent’s bros, only one also doesn’t tan at all.
Some of us, received more Taino DNA than the others and do fully tan under the sunlight.

Darker skinned Dominicans also fall into this category. The more African DNA, the less the odds of tanning, if at all.

You can verify this using DNA results after you check with the tanning results. Has yet to fail for those of us with deep roots in the DR.

We placed bets on this after some arguments as to why this happened in the family and later tested with ancestry DNA swabs.

The results were outstanding! We didn’t know this could happen, even between brothers of the same parents!

A good 15 to 18 percent of Dominicans have Amerindian markers in our mitochondrial DNA. This is average, with some having higher rates and others lower.

I bronze nicely under sunlight!

Something else worth noting is the Taínos didn’t have much inbreeding compared to other amerindians. This was a culture effect from their practice of mixing with others from other tribes and freedom of coupling. They welcomed relations with Spaniards as such.
Yeah, I ended up having a lot of relatives in Cuba in 23andMe, and was confirmed by paternal oral tradition. I am now in the process of getting in touch with the lot of them.
 

AlterEgo

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In my case my final score in 23andMe is 59.8% Euro (52.2% Iberian, 7.6% Other Euro), 30.3% Sub-Saharan African, 7.7% Amerind and 2% Middle Eastern (Sephardic Jewish). The main source from my Iberian ancestry comes from the Portuguese towns of Beja and Faro, and for the African one, Senegambia, like most Domis of colonial stock.
Do you know those towns from dna or research? Mr AE has 2% Senegal
 

Naked_Snake

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Do you know those towns from dna or research? Mr AE has 2% Senegal
From both. I will take it upon myself to visit them once the travel lockdown gets to be fully lifted, since in my first time in Europe four years ago I only had the chance of visiting Galicia and the northern parts of Portugal.
 
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Chellow

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I does originate from Taino origins. It was the name of a section of the island southwest of the Samaná peninsula where there are many elevations, hence the name of the national park that protects it is Los Haitises, which is the plural version of haiti. Ironically, the greatest Taino ancestry is found among Dominicans based on several DNA tests that have been done.

This one is from 23andme. Interesting how indigenous DNA in the Caribbean is mostly found in the people from the Spanish Caribbean. The English and French descriptions often mention a "genocide" by the Spanish against the Native people, yet DNA evidence shows that its precisely in Spanish countries of the Americas where Native DNA is the highest. What type of "genocide" was this when results regarding this should be among the least in Spanish areas and more in the English and French areas of the Americas. lol
q1zD6N.jpg


There is basically no real genetic connection between the people who originated the word and almost all the Haitian people then and now. In fact, it wasn't even used much for about 300 years between the 1500's and the time the Haitians gained their independence.
 
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PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
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*****removed by PICHARDO


You should have a mod erase this picture posted (it contains an embedded link to actual unretouched original pic and others) and upload a screenshot of it instead, which will be a static pic only. Here below I include one you can use instead.
 

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