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NY times article - Ramona Hern?ndez
Jon S. said:
Careful with calling a Dominican black. LOL.
This reminds me of taking the SATs in Santo Domingo when I was a kid. Every single US standardized test we took where we had to fill in race there was a 10-15 minute fight where Dominicans explained to the teachers why they were white, and not black or hispanic.
The ruling by the teacher was as follows (just to shut people up), if you think you're white and have a red passport (Dominican passport), sorry you're hispanic. If you think you're white and have a blue passport (American passport) feel free to put white. If you are dark skinned and don't think you're black put hispanic.
Race is very tricky with Dominicans, just don't debate it......there's no point.
OK, now, does anyone have anything to say about the original profile on Ramona Hern?ndez that appeared in the New York Times on Tuesday - and the conclusions that this article came to. The word black is banned ferGod's-sakes! I thought there were some intelligent and enlightening discussions so far, could we keep it intelligent? And in terms of filling in the forms in the US, I used to say that I am first generation African American White! Who was going to argue! Make up a title... nobody is going to challenge you - they are all too scared of the issue.
I just read the article. It is a profile of a Dominican girl done good.
To paraphrase her: Dominicans in NYC are amongst the poorest. It is a sign of a struggle to gain a foothold. They struggle because Dominicans are (mostly) blacks who can't speak good English.
Read em' and weep, Chris.....them's the facts about your arctile...
To paraphrase her: Dominicans in NYC are amongst the poorest. It is a sign of a struggle to gain a foothold. They struggle because Dominicans are (mostly) blacks who can't speak good English.
Read em' and weep, Chris.....them's the facts about your arctile...
Read the article
I just read the article and she is exemplary in many ways but the question is how can the community benefit from her as an example? A key excerpt from the article is as follows:
Talk she does, moving freely between Spanish and English. Politicians, journalists, community leaders, fellow academics, the president of the Dominican Republic - they all want her take on things.
This proves many of our views that language barriers must be overcome if personal and professional success is to be achieved (without cultural loss). Those who insist on remaining unilingual in the "enclave" and elsewhere really need to understand this but I am not sure they are listening.
Anyway thanks for sharing the article. Looking forward to the input from other posters.
-Lesley D-
I just read the article and she is exemplary in many ways but the question is how can the community benefit from her as an example? A key excerpt from the article is as follows:
Talk she does, moving freely between Spanish and English. Politicians, journalists, community leaders, fellow academics, the president of the Dominican Republic - they all want her take on things.
This proves many of our views that language barriers must be overcome if personal and professional success is to be achieved (without cultural loss). Those who insist on remaining unilingual in the "enclave" and elsewhere really need to understand this but I am not sure they are listening.
Anyway thanks for sharing the article. Looking forward to the input from other posters.
-Lesley D-
First, I think people are giving more credit to the Height than they should. Why? GENTRIFICATION. There are more white Americans moving in and a TON of Mexicans. As the economic power of younger Dom-Am generations increases, they are migrating out. Thus, this idea of the Height's as an enclave is more of a transitional idealogical take in my opinion.
To address Gilbert's point, I am not advocating whether Dominicans should or should not move back. I am just stating that few in fact actually DO move back DR. The most recent calculations from the new INS bureau show that the percentage is in fact miniscule. The thing is that they want to move but it often comes at the cost of losing their children, grandchildren etc. And those that do move to the DR often see themselves as having to move back to the US because they have run out of money and do not really feel accepted as a Dominican any more. Many feel like they get used and hoodwinked like any other tourist. This is just from my experience talking with older folks that have "retired" and moved back to the US.
The fact that these people live in the US for many, many years 15-20+ years with the mentality that they will move back to DR prevents them from actually partaking in voting decisions or being active members of society. Lesley, this is more of the point I was trying to get into. People come here to raise their kids but they DON'T CARE that their kids are getting into drugs, crime, prostitution, etc. and are being exposed to these things in the schools, the streets, their very neighborhoods. What I mean by don't care is that they don't protest to their political leadership, they don't VOTE, and are not active in the school system. This translates to a hands off policy to rearing (sp?) their kids because they feel that the US system is adequate and why change it since they are moving back to DR...why should they care what happends? This is not an issue of accepting to let people move out of the US or not, rather their needs to be a realization that they must take part in the society they live in while they are there...how ever long.
We are losing this next generation of kids to the streets...but this can be avoided if people cared enough to change and effect change. This means that we need to take a more nationwide approach rather than focus all resources to 20 blocks in Manhattan. Dominicans are EVERYWHERE in the US.
Peace.
To address Gilbert's point, I am not advocating whether Dominicans should or should not move back. I am just stating that few in fact actually DO move back DR. The most recent calculations from the new INS bureau show that the percentage is in fact miniscule. The thing is that they want to move but it often comes at the cost of losing their children, grandchildren etc. And those that do move to the DR often see themselves as having to move back to the US because they have run out of money and do not really feel accepted as a Dominican any more. Many feel like they get used and hoodwinked like any other tourist. This is just from my experience talking with older folks that have "retired" and moved back to the US.
The fact that these people live in the US for many, many years 15-20+ years with the mentality that they will move back to DR prevents them from actually partaking in voting decisions or being active members of society. Lesley, this is more of the point I was trying to get into. People come here to raise their kids but they DON'T CARE that their kids are getting into drugs, crime, prostitution, etc. and are being exposed to these things in the schools, the streets, their very neighborhoods. What I mean by don't care is that they don't protest to their political leadership, they don't VOTE, and are not active in the school system. This translates to a hands off policy to rearing (sp?) their kids because they feel that the US system is adequate and why change it since they are moving back to DR...why should they care what happends? This is not an issue of accepting to let people move out of the US or not, rather their needs to be a realization that they must take part in the society they live in while they are there...how ever long.
We are losing this next generation of kids to the streets...but this can be avoided if people cared enough to change and effect change. This means that we need to take a more nationwide approach rather than focus all resources to 20 blocks in Manhattan. Dominicans are EVERYWHERE in the US.
Peace.
Lesley D said:
mondongo said:
Thank you for that. However I did not intend to write that she said ALL Dominicans are black. Hmmmm, if I made that insinuation I apologize. Her point was well made and well taken. However once again the popular belief is that Dominicans are black. I am simply saying that I am white and I am not the only one! Have a happy holiday!!!
GilbertArenas said:
Very good point!!!! My father, being of Irish background never accepted the fact that his wife and mother to his children was hispanic. LOL..we were raised as little white kids! Hey, I am damn proud of my Irish blood too. But I get a bit razed when some people of dark skin refer to me as a 'cracker'. That happened a few times in the Dominican Republic and I cussed them out in Spanish, they sort of got confused. Chaulk it up to their ignorance by judging a book by it's cover
Scotty,
First you did not make an insinuation. It was an outright statement. I did not mention anything relating to color it was a quote from the article. The fact that a large majority of Dominicans are people of color (that in the US is often just caterorized as black) is not a popular belief. It is a fact.
You are half white, from Irish descent. That too is a fact. This cuts your genetic "Dominican" make-up to half.
I wish I had a dime for everytime that a Dominican highlighted the whiteness of their features: how light their skin is, how fine their features are, how straight their hair is, or whatever caucasian feature they have...
I feel that when people talk this way it's just seems like they want to be congratulated: Well then, CONGRATULATIONS on your whiteness. It's great to hear that you are really, really white. You are ultimate proof that we can in fact improve the race. Good thing you mom married your dad. Make sure you marry a dark Dominican to help the other 80% out just make sure they are not too dark because then you will have a heck of a time making sure your kids/grandkids don't have start from scratch. Geez!
The article is talking about the EFFECT and LEVELS of acceptance of Dominicans in NY and American society, in general. The fact is color is an issue and there are measurable consequences-- Dominicans have the lowest income per capita among Latinos in NY and among the lowest in the country.
You can be as white as you want to be, but this is very real reality for the MAJORITY of Dominicans in the states, who happen to be people of color.
Again, Congrats!
D
First you did not make an insinuation. It was an outright statement. I did not mention anything relating to color it was a quote from the article. The fact that a large majority of Dominicans are people of color (that in the US is often just caterorized as black) is not a popular belief. It is a fact.
You are half white, from Irish descent. That too is a fact. This cuts your genetic "Dominican" make-up to half.
I wish I had a dime for everytime that a Dominican highlighted the whiteness of their features: how light their skin is, how fine their features are, how straight their hair is, or whatever caucasian feature they have...
I feel that when people talk this way it's just seems like they want to be congratulated: Well then, CONGRATULATIONS on your whiteness. It's great to hear that you are really, really white. You are ultimate proof that we can in fact improve the race. Good thing you mom married your dad. Make sure you marry a dark Dominican to help the other 80% out just make sure they are not too dark because then you will have a heck of a time making sure your kids/grandkids don't have start from scratch. Geez!
The article is talking about the EFFECT and LEVELS of acceptance of Dominicans in NY and American society, in general. The fact is color is an issue and there are measurable consequences-- Dominicans have the lowest income per capita among Latinos in NY and among the lowest in the country.
You can be as white as you want to be, but this is very real reality for the MAJORITY of Dominicans in the states, who happen to be people of color.
Again, Congrats!
D
DominicanScotty said:
deelt said:
I did respectfully apologize, it wasn't my intention to flare up your emotions. I really do not understand the anger and sarcasim! Whether I made a statement or insinuation is a moot point. I apologized and now if one cannot accept that apology??? That is another matter.
What I wanted to add is that contrary to some people's belief, there are white Dominicans. Many non-Dominicans do not know that there are light skinned Dominicans and go on and on believing that all Dominicans are dark skinned and dumb. This is the farthest from the truth. Although you have alot of truth in what you observe there are many dark skinned Dominicans that are successful as well. Are you Dominican? If you are then surely you will then know that although you might be dark skinned there is a very good chance that you have relatives that are very white with blue or green eyes and even blonde hair. As to why many of them are in the Dominican Republic one needs to learn Dominican history and the dirty deeds of the King and Queen of Spain. Not all people were brought over from Spain as soldiers. Many white women were brought over against their free will as sex slaves! No need to congratulate me as I am already very proud of my "dark skinned" relatives as well! I am aware of the friction between the races but it doesn't occur in my family. We all get along and support each other regardless of our skin color. I am no different then many people of Dominican descent that I send money back home from the states. As to the comment about me marrying a "dark skinned Dominican" really threw me off. I do not make my decisions based on such ideas. My girlfriend happens to be dark skinned and even though her "dark skin" seems to be a handicap to some she is a very intelligent and successful woman. She will not need me to help her succeed, she has a brain.
I certainly do not intent to disprespect you or anyone else and am not going to get into a personal war of words with you now. You seem to be a very intelligent person and I will always welcome and appreciate people's input and ideas. I simply want them to accept mine.
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mondongo said:I just read the article. It is a profile of a Dominican girl done good.
To paraphrase her: Dominicans in NYC are amongst the poorest. It is a sign of a struggle to gain a foothold. They struggle because Dominicans are (mostly) blacks who can't speak good English.
Read em' and weep, Chris.....them's the facts about your arctile...
Yeah! I know... the cynical viewpoint about the fluff piece - but it was really nice to read about the Dominican girl done good! I enjoyed that aspect most :classic:
Thanks...
I think your post and mine are a good examples of "cause and effect". In my first post (point #3 ) I was outlining the "cause" in general terms (or better defined the motive) of enclaves formed by any immigrant community. Deelt your response is an excellent explanation of one of the "effects" of an "enclave" over time in this case Washington Heights and eventually the Dominican community in the US. That was a good response to my question and I thank you for that.
Admittedly I did not know the meaning of the word GENTRIFICATION. I had to look it up in the dictionary. You would know better than I would if that process is actually beginning in the Heights. I can't say. However, last time I visited was four years ago and I readily noticed the influx of Mexicans so I agree with you completely on that aspect.
Here is the meaning of "gentrification" for anyone who is interested: the process of renewal and rebuilding accompanying the influx of middle-class or affluent people into deteriorating areas that often displaces earlier usually poorer residents (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).
Later
-Lesley D-
I think your post and mine are a good examples of "cause and effect". In my first post (point #3 ) I was outlining the "cause" in general terms (or better defined the motive) of enclaves formed by any immigrant community. Deelt your response is an excellent explanation of one of the "effects" of an "enclave" over time in this case Washington Heights and eventually the Dominican community in the US. That was a good response to my question and I thank you for that.
Admittedly I did not know the meaning of the word GENTRIFICATION. I had to look it up in the dictionary. You would know better than I would if that process is actually beginning in the Heights. I can't say. However, last time I visited was four years ago and I readily noticed the influx of Mexicans so I agree with you completely on that aspect.
Here is the meaning of "gentrification" for anyone who is interested: the process of renewal and rebuilding accompanying the influx of middle-class or affluent people into deteriorating areas that often displaces earlier usually poorer residents (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).
Later
-Lesley D-
deelt said:
Scott,
First I am not arguing with you. Really, I'm not. I accept your apology. I also extend my apologies if my comment rubbed you the wrong way. I understand your point. But I just feel you are not understanding mine. It is about taking a step back and trying to maximize impact. You can't do that by highlighting exceptions. Do you see where I am coming from?
The thing is that it is FRUSTRATING to deal with the color issue because we are reflective rather pro-active on addressing the reality and implications of who we are as a people. We know the history of the country, but frankly, this is reflective thinking. The history is indisputable. We are (and all of our families) a rainbow of colors. Instead, we need to pro-active actors. By this I mean that we need to think about changing the language we use (and our view) of race and color so that we don't perpetuate this observable inferiority complex in our people. I think much of this affects us psychologically. My personal belief is that it is at the root cause of much of the family breakdowns and promiscuity observed among our people. When you don't love/respect yourself you over compensate and seek external validation. I have yet to see a stable and healthy Dominican marriage.
This is not an attack on you rather a philosophical critique: I question the motivations of people who highlight their whiteness (regardless of their color). Their doing so is something engrained. It's like constantly saying to a dark skinned person with light blue/green eyes that they are worthy solely because they have this caucasian feature. I find this to be psychologically damagining and covertly/subtly racist. I don't think that families are intentionally and blatantly about it. It just comes out. This mentality is generated when you grow up hearing "the fly in the milk jokes" or "stay out of the sun" and other such comments. It is an insidious behavior pattern that is engrained which people often don't recognize or realize.
I am not arguing that there are no wealthy dark skinned Dominicans or no poor white skinned Dominicans. They both exist. However, like I said, color does play a role in the US and in the DR. And how we address and internalize this issue does have real consequences and implications in terms of economic growth potential. I am not talking about one or two Dominicans, but rather Dominicans as a NATIONAL entity and in trying to...again, maximize impact.
I am just saying we can start to do this by changing the language we use, the jokes/comments we make, etc. Let's just start by highlight something different.
Best to you.
First I am not arguing with you. Really, I'm not. I accept your apology. I also extend my apologies if my comment rubbed you the wrong way. I understand your point. But I just feel you are not understanding mine. It is about taking a step back and trying to maximize impact. You can't do that by highlighting exceptions. Do you see where I am coming from?
The thing is that it is FRUSTRATING to deal with the color issue because we are reflective rather pro-active on addressing the reality and implications of who we are as a people. We know the history of the country, but frankly, this is reflective thinking. The history is indisputable. We are (and all of our families) a rainbow of colors. Instead, we need to pro-active actors. By this I mean that we need to think about changing the language we use (and our view) of race and color so that we don't perpetuate this observable inferiority complex in our people. I think much of this affects us psychologically. My personal belief is that it is at the root cause of much of the family breakdowns and promiscuity observed among our people. When you don't love/respect yourself you over compensate and seek external validation. I have yet to see a stable and healthy Dominican marriage.
This is not an attack on you rather a philosophical critique: I question the motivations of people who highlight their whiteness (regardless of their color). Their doing so is something engrained. It's like constantly saying to a dark skinned person with light blue/green eyes that they are worthy solely because they have this caucasian feature. I find this to be psychologically damagining and covertly/subtly racist. I don't think that families are intentionally and blatantly about it. It just comes out. This mentality is generated when you grow up hearing "the fly in the milk jokes" or "stay out of the sun" and other such comments. It is an insidious behavior pattern that is engrained which people often don't recognize or realize.
I am not arguing that there are no wealthy dark skinned Dominicans or no poor white skinned Dominicans. They both exist. However, like I said, color does play a role in the US and in the DR. And how we address and internalize this issue does have real consequences and implications in terms of economic growth potential. I am not talking about one or two Dominicans, but rather Dominicans as a NATIONAL entity and in trying to...again, maximize impact.
I am just saying we can start to do this by changing the language we use, the jokes/comments we make, etc. Let's just start by highlight something different.
Best to you.
DominicanScotty said:
deelt, what are the 'fly in the milk' jokes?
In my part of the world that's what we say to describe someone who is unhealthily pale, as in 'ese guiri (usually used to refer to an English person) es mas blanco que una mosca en leche'. It's not a compliment.
In my part of the world that's what we say to describe someone who is unhealthily pale, as in 'ese guiri (usually used to refer to an English person) es mas blanco que una mosca en leche'. It's not a compliment.
Exactly. It isn't a compliment. The opposite is also true when people say "tu eres la mosca en leche/you are the fly in a glass of milk"...Milk is white. If you are supposed to be the mosca, what color is the mosca (fly, for the Spanish impaired)? People says it in a joking matter but it is really ment to be hurtful and denigrating. This is the kind of stuff people internalize subconsiously.
What's interesting is that perfectly normal looking people will admit to how "ugly they are" like the merengue "Yo soy feo pero sabroso/I am ugly but delicious"...yet and still when you take a look at the private lives of people who say this you truly have to question how much they trully love themselves and respect themselves...else drugs/promiscuity/other addictions wouldn't be in the picture to convince them otherwise.
Just a thought.
D
What's interesting is that perfectly normal looking people will admit to how "ugly they are" like the merengue "Yo soy feo pero sabroso/I am ugly but delicious"...yet and still when you take a look at the private lives of people who say this you truly have to question how much they trully love themselves and respect themselves...else drugs/promiscuity/other addictions wouldn't be in the picture to convince them otherwise.
Just a thought.
D
Chirimoya said:
Even where I come from, we have 'fly in the milk' jokes, but these do not refer to color, they refer to someone who is just making life miserable for others... I'm tempted to quote a few, but possibly a few of the dutch members may just be able to read it... Not a good idea!
stupid!!!!!!!!!
Either some of you people are stupid or ignorant
The dominican republic have one of the greatest cultural mix in the world.
11% of the dominican population is black 16% white and 73 * mix of european,african,and indian. "Some of you need to go to school to learn more about "la tierra del merengue"
Either some of you people are stupid or ignorant
The dominican republic have one of the greatest cultural mix in the world.
11% of the dominican population is black 16% white and 73 * mix of european,african,and indian. "Some of you need to go to school to learn more about "la tierra del merengue"