If this has been asked before, I apologize but I am curious. I was speaking to a woman from Santo Domingo while on vacation on the north coast and she pronounced her the ll and y like the English j. Maybe I was just not paying attention but I had never noticed this before while speaking to a Dominican. I heard from other Spanish speakers but never really noticed it from a Dominican. Her vocabulary suggested someone was reasonably educated. Is this an affectation or a common regionalism to which I wasn't paying attention? Also, her cadence also didn't some like a Dominican or Caribbean speaker. I asked her if her family was from elsewhere or if she lived outside country but she said no.
- Thread starter xamaicano
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Regional pronunciation question
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A little detail and feedback...
I am always amazed how these types questions draw no or few responses and there are enough Dominicans (since it's a question about the DR vernacular) who post in the Spanish forum. However, when a response is posted some people contest or challenge it. Let's see what happens this time.
xamaicano, in my experience this is one linguistic feature in Spanish in general that's an across the board trait, not necessarily associated with a country, region, a group of speakers nor is education a factor or reason for the pronunciation variation. I do believe most Spanish speakers are 'ye?sta' means the /ll/ and /y/ are pronounced with a /y/ according to the phonetics of the language. However, you will hear the /j/ sound especially in words with /ll/ (in my experience) and more so if it's at the beginning of the word as quite a prevalent pronunciation or phonetic variance. I have a mix of both /y/ and 'j' depending on the word and I am not really sure why, when or how the inconsistency started in my own speech. Every now and then I would try to standardize but it sounds strange although phonetically the pronunciation should be with a /y/. The first twelve posts about /ll/ is discussed in this thread (http://www.dr1.com/forums/spanish-101/65351-l-l.html).
I think more observation and research would have be done my part to say comfortably that it's heard more so in one region than another but in the DR you will hear the variance meaning the 'j' sound and also in the Caribbean without a doubt. As you said in your post it could be that you just had not noticed it, not paid attention to it or had not spoken to anyone who had the /j/ pronunciation emphasis up until now. As well some phonetic features are more subtle than others. Compare the /j/ sound to the cibae?o /i/. For example, on Sunday I try to make a few calls, family day per se and after talking on the phone recently I was thinking to myself how certain features of speech stand out if you don't hear them everyday- 'mi hija no te preocupe Dios te va a recompensai'. Long live el cibae?o!
Also to note in some countries, the /ll/ in the middle of word is weak and sounds more like a /i/ when there's another /i/ and this may be a variation that you have not heard as yet either. For example, gallina sounds more like ga?na. This is more a trait of Central America.
In general, language is not a static concept. It's quite transferable meaning features of speech do get passed on from speaker to speaker, in some cases region to region and country to country. Some features of speech are associated with class level, or education, regional differences or a dialect but to my knowledge this is not one of them since it varies across the Spanish-speaking world (I am referring to Latin America). Some people (non linguists or language gurus) use the word dialect very freely when referring to regional speech varieties when in fact Spanish only has a few official dialects and el cibae?o is one of them. Spanish is not like Italian a country with several dialects from region to region and from what I can tell they take precedence over standard Italian which is taught in school.
I think the /y/ and /ll/ change for /j/ by some speakers falls under the same linguistic phonetic study as el seseo heard in Spain for starters and then further analyzed. The fundamental difference right from the get go is that el seso is associated with a region because its not a phonetic feature of all Spaniards whereas the /y/, /ll/ phonetic variation is not regional as it is heard throughout Latin America.
-Marianopolita.
I am always amazed how these types questions draw no or few responses and there are enough Dominicans (since it's a question about the DR vernacular) who post in the Spanish forum. However, when a response is posted some people contest or challenge it. Let's see what happens this time.
xamaicano, in my experience this is one linguistic feature in Spanish in general that's an across the board trait, not necessarily associated with a country, region, a group of speakers nor is education a factor or reason for the pronunciation variation. I do believe most Spanish speakers are 'ye?sta' means the /ll/ and /y/ are pronounced with a /y/ according to the phonetics of the language. However, you will hear the /j/ sound especially in words with /ll/ (in my experience) and more so if it's at the beginning of the word as quite a prevalent pronunciation or phonetic variance. I have a mix of both /y/ and 'j' depending on the word and I am not really sure why, when or how the inconsistency started in my own speech. Every now and then I would try to standardize but it sounds strange although phonetically the pronunciation should be with a /y/. The first twelve posts about /ll/ is discussed in this thread (http://www.dr1.com/forums/spanish-101/65351-l-l.html).
I think more observation and research would have be done my part to say comfortably that it's heard more so in one region than another but in the DR you will hear the variance meaning the 'j' sound and also in the Caribbean without a doubt. As you said in your post it could be that you just had not noticed it, not paid attention to it or had not spoken to anyone who had the /j/ pronunciation emphasis up until now. As well some phonetic features are more subtle than others. Compare the /j/ sound to the cibae?o /i/. For example, on Sunday I try to make a few calls, family day per se and after talking on the phone recently I was thinking to myself how certain features of speech stand out if you don't hear them everyday- 'mi hija no te preocupe Dios te va a recompensai'. Long live el cibae?o!
Also to note in some countries, the /ll/ in the middle of word is weak and sounds more like a /i/ when there's another /i/ and this may be a variation that you have not heard as yet either. For example, gallina sounds more like ga?na. This is more a trait of Central America.
In general, language is not a static concept. It's quite transferable meaning features of speech do get passed on from speaker to speaker, in some cases region to region and country to country. Some features of speech are associated with class level, or education, regional differences or a dialect but to my knowledge this is not one of them since it varies across the Spanish-speaking world (I am referring to Latin America). Some people (non linguists or language gurus) use the word dialect very freely when referring to regional speech varieties when in fact Spanish only has a few official dialects and el cibae?o is one of them. Spanish is not like Italian a country with several dialects from region to region and from what I can tell they take precedence over standard Italian which is taught in school.
I think the /y/ and /ll/ change for /j/ by some speakers falls under the same linguistic phonetic study as el seseo heard in Spain for starters and then further analyzed. The fundamental difference right from the get go is that el seso is associated with a region because its not a phonetic feature of all Spaniards whereas the /y/, /ll/ phonetic variation is not regional as it is heard throughout Latin America.
-Marianopolita.
In my experience Dominicans will pronounce the ll and y sound with English j an y sounds interchangeably, some more an some less. To them they see little difference between the two, just like an English speaker sees no difference between the pronounced thee and thu. This is why so many will say jes instead of yes.
In spain it is more prevelent than other places. The rest of latin america tends to go towards the y sound, except Uruguay and a good chunk of argentina(some provinces pronounce it as the rest of LA), which pronounce somewhere between an sh and a j, or sort of a soft j if you will.
Thanks all for the responses. The cibae?o i I have noticed but the j sound is something that caught my attention in last trip. El Uruguayo, I haven't been to Uruguay but the pronunciation peculiarity you mentioned I did notice in Argentina and I love how it sounds. Marianopolita, I have heard Colombians go back and forth depending on the word. For example, the same person using j pronunciation for a name like Yeimy and the y for yo.
xamaicano...
That's exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned the /j/ sound in my own speech. It's instinctive and consistent with certain words. I can assure you this is not only among Colombians. It can be observed in the Spanish-speaking world. Leaving out Uruguay and Argentina as mention by El_Uruguayo you will hear the /ll/ 'y' sound and 'j' sound in certain words/ names. I know there is some written detail on the concept and do recall this speech phenomenon is recognized in some parts of Latin America etc.
Here is a list of words from the dictionary. Think about how they are said vs. how you have heard them said:
Llamar- in the DR you will hear the 'j' sound by some speakers
Lluvia- in the DR you will hear the 'j' by some speakers
Lleno- the 'j' sound varies in the Spanish-speaking world
Llevar- both pronunciations
Llorar- both pronunciations
Yo- 'j' varies in the Spanish-speaking world
Yerba= hierba- 'j' sound varies in the Spanish-speaking world
What other observations have you made? I know you really like the language so I am interested in your feedback.
-Marianopolita.
Thanks all for the responses. The cibae?o i I have noticed but the j sound is something that caught my attention in last trip. El Uruguayo, I haven't been to Uruguay but the pronunciation peculiarity you mentioned I did notice in Argentina and I love how it sounds. Marianopolita, I have heard Colombians go back and forth depending on the word. For example, the same person using j pronunciation for a name like Yeimy and the y for yo.
That's exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned the /j/ sound in my own speech. It's instinctive and consistent with certain words. I can assure you this is not only among Colombians. It can be observed in the Spanish-speaking world. Leaving out Uruguay and Argentina as mention by El_Uruguayo you will hear the /ll/ 'y' sound and 'j' sound in certain words/ names. I know there is some written detail on the concept and do recall this speech phenomenon is recognized in some parts of Latin America etc.
Here is a list of words from the dictionary. Think about how they are said vs. how you have heard them said:
Llamar- in the DR you will hear the 'j' sound by some speakers
Lluvia- in the DR you will hear the 'j' by some speakers
Lleno- the 'j' sound varies in the Spanish-speaking world
Llevar- both pronunciations
Llorar- both pronunciations
Yo- 'j' varies in the Spanish-speaking world
Yerba= hierba- 'j' sound varies in the Spanish-speaking world
What other observations have you made? I know you really like the language so I am interested in your feedback.
-Marianopolita.
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