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The word "criollo"
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I already said it in the other thread...IN THE RD is it used by dominicans to refer to other dominicans and it doesn't have a bad cognotation at all, as someone else tried to imply...BUT THE REAL MEANING of this word is that criollo was the term used to decribe people born in the colonies, FROM parents that were spaniard OR other criollos (NOT MIXED w/ black or amerindian.)
How it is used in the DR? instead of saying "Dominicano logro nadar alrededor de la isla Manhattan" you can say, "Criollo logra nadar alrededor de la isla Manhattan"...
How it is used in the DR? instead of saying "Dominicano logro nadar alrededor de la isla Manhattan" you can say, "Criollo logra nadar alrededor de la isla Manhattan"...
Its a question of identity...
See this is all true, but I see a question of identity here. What do I mean? How can and why would a person born and raised here with a mixed background call themselves criollo and have their point of reference be Spain? What I mean is that when the word is used there is a "wish" to be Spanish. These are colonial issues of identity. I mean, I've used the word criollo out of laziness and I just don't want to bother giving people a history lesson, but it's an "offensive" term. Will I continue using it? I might because I don't think most Dominicans know the origins of the word and I think that the way the word is used now makes the word more usable i.e it is a synonym for Dominican. Anyways, it's late and I feel like I'm just rambling. I hope this makes sense, if it doesn't I hope the moderator can delete it.
Mr. Lu
See this is all true, but I see a question of identity here. What do I mean? How can and why would a person born and raised here with a mixed background call themselves criollo and have their point of reference be Spain? What I mean is that when the word is used there is a "wish" to be Spanish. These are colonial issues of identity. I mean, I've used the word criollo out of laziness and I just don't want to bother giving people a history lesson, but it's an "offensive" term. Will I continue using it? I might because I don't think most Dominicans know the origins of the word and I think that the way the word is used now makes the word more usable i.e it is a synonym for Dominican. Anyways, it's late and I feel like I'm just rambling. I hope this makes sense, if it doesn't I hope the moderator can delete it.
Mr. Lu
I think I understand what you are saying, Mr. Lu ...and I pointed this out in another thread. I don't find it ofensive as much as I find it ignorant because the reality is that most dominicans are mixed and most hispanoamerican colonies ceased to exist almost 2 centuries ago so there is no point in using this word anymore..
But I think that what you find ofensive is that dominicans would wish to be considered criollo when criollos were of pure christian, spanish blood (which most of us are not)...Then again, so many people that are mulattos here consider themselves "indians"...so, it is not surprise they use this term.
It is all a matter of ignorance and will take a change in the educational system of this country to reform this mindset.
But I think that what you find ofensive is that dominicans would wish to be considered criollo when criollos were of pure christian, spanish blood (which most of us are not)...Then again, so many people that are mulattos here consider themselves "indians"...so, it is not surprise they use this term.
It is all a matter of ignorance and will take a change in the educational system of this country to reform this mindset.
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I think for most Domincans it only means that it originates from the DR, I haven't gathered any Spanish "connection". The reason I say this is that it is used a lot of times here to describe parts, food etc that come exclusively from the DR. Therefore, one can assume that for most of the people here, criollo has lost it's original meaning and therefore is anything but offensive or racist, etc. Languages are full of these type of words too, so I don't think education will changes things - however I am 100% for bettering the education here.
For whatever it's worth, here with a Dominican friend. He tells me that the word can be thought of in english as meaning 'native' or 'typical of the country'... not unique to Dominican Republic but may be used in any spanish speaking country.
He used the example of chickens, saying white chickens are known as pollos gringos (of the U.S.) while brown chickens are referred to as pollos criollos. Same with eggs... juevos criollos for brown eggs.
He does, however, agree with Funnyvale, on the original meaning... that it referred to 'white spaniards' born in Latin America, or their descendents.
He used the example of chickens, saying white chickens are known as pollos gringos (of the U.S.) while brown chickens are referred to as pollos criollos. Same with eggs... juevos criollos for brown eggs.
He does, however, agree with Funnyvale, on the original meaning... that it referred to 'white spaniards' born in Latin America, or their descendents.
um...
All of this is true, but I still can't get that whole Spaniard thing out of my head.
Same as calling someone a mulato, cuarteno, javao, etc. It's all of these "colonial" terms that even if we think we have changed the meaning, the original definition still holds some connection to its roots.
Does that make sense?
All of this is true, but I still can't get that whole Spaniard thing out of my head.
Same as calling someone a mulato, cuarteno, javao, etc. It's all of these "colonial" terms that even if we think we have changed the meaning, the original definition still holds some connection to its roots.
Does that make sense?
And so it should, no? I laughed when I visited Key West and found that if you are born there, you are known as a conk (lambi). Perhaps we would really have shaken off historical shackles and we would really have found a place of freedom if we can be what we are without worrying about it and messing about for meaning? Anyway, philosophical musings aside, I don't find the word offensive but will in future use it for food and chickens and such stuff, and not for people
What is so hard to understand?
The peninsulares thought of themselves as superior to any local, including the sons/daughters born in the colonies of peninsulares.
Somehow, the belief was that even if someone was born of two peninsulares parents, that the person was somehow inferior to those Spaniards born in Spain.
That's why all top ranking position in the colonial administration was in the hands of not just Spaniards, but Spaniards born in Spain (ie. peninsulares). Criollos (sons/daughters born in the colonies of peninsulares or other criollos) were thought of as inferior and hence, were banned from top ranking positions.
The anger among the criollos, who didn't see a difference between themselves and the Spaniards born in Spain - in part because there was no difference, other than place of birth - is what lead the many revolutions and fights for independence in every single Hispanic country in the Americas.
From the beginning, the term criollo has had the meaning of local, from the colonies, from the land of the savages, the uncivilized, etc.
Today the term applies towards anything that is local, it has no connection to Spain or Spanish ancestry or anything of the sort.
It means local, from the land, period.
That has been the meaning of the word for hundreds of years, and because ONE person thinks otherwise doesn't mean the word will change its meaning once again!
The literal translation of criollo is creole. In Spanish it means local while in English the term creole means West Indian, as in from the West Indies, the British/French West Indies to be exact.
Don't see beyond the point, because otherwise you are going to reach conclusions that have no basis or application to the modern meaning of the word.
-NALs
Off thread, but the original Spanish andFrench Families of Louisiana still think of themselves as CREOLE. This has been handed downfrom generation to generation and they get rather indignant if you use the word disparingly. There have been incidents where people have actually been "Called out" for such usage.
Texas Bill
So far from the point...
Are you making up stories again or have you truly missed the point? No need for the impromptu history lesson, I already knew what was going on and well, on so many levels you are wrong. Actually, not wrong I just feel you were so anxious to prove to the world you knew some history that YOU MISSED THE POINT!
That whole "getting it out of my head" was intended to imply that though the word has "acquired" new meaning, it still has shades of the old meaning and that I was confused as to whether or not I would use the word. Had you read my previous posts you would have noticed that I did in fact understand what was going but I wanted to, in a rhetorical way, imply my ongoing confusion and disagreement towards the usage of the word.
Moreover, my want to change the usage of the word or my disagreement over it is voiced by others. Some on this board and some elsewhere. I am not the only one who thinks the word is offensive. So are other words which I have used as examples below.
And that whole "the word means local" BS, who died and made you language king. For as much as you want to change the meaning of this word, it still, and moreover in the context of the island and Dominican history (i.e identity) has an inference to something more than just local.
Though it meant "local" in terms of these Spaniards born on the island it still represented a separation and a distinction of that African/Mulatto presence. So at the core of the word it reflects the Dominican "wish" to be Spanish, even if so little, so that they weren't in fact Black/African/Mulatto.
And the final example that I use in my argument is how for example in the US you have some that will argue for the usage of the word "Nigga" over "Nigger," how homosexuals have begun using the word "Queer," the usage of the word "Nazi" or the usage of the words "mixed, mulatto, breed etc." Though you might try to provide a modern day usage or connotation, in the end the word reverts back to its original usage and definition.
So much for subtle arguments. I will stop trying to do that as I see that some on this board can't see through them and must have the arguments spelled out for them. Above the heads and under the heels. Here is something else I will spell: sit on it and spin.
Mr. Lu (a.k.a. Mr. 'M. Gerbil')
Are you making up stories again or have you truly missed the point? No need for the impromptu history lesson, I already knew what was going on and well, on so many levels you are wrong. Actually, not wrong I just feel you were so anxious to prove to the world you knew some history that YOU MISSED THE POINT!
That whole "getting it out of my head" was intended to imply that though the word has "acquired" new meaning, it still has shades of the old meaning and that I was confused as to whether or not I would use the word. Had you read my previous posts you would have noticed that I did in fact understand what was going but I wanted to, in a rhetorical way, imply my ongoing confusion and disagreement towards the usage of the word.
Moreover, my want to change the usage of the word or my disagreement over it is voiced by others. Some on this board and some elsewhere. I am not the only one who thinks the word is offensive. So are other words which I have used as examples below.
And that whole "the word means local" BS, who died and made you language king. For as much as you want to change the meaning of this word, it still, and moreover in the context of the island and Dominican history (i.e identity) has an inference to something more than just local.
Though it meant "local" in terms of these Spaniards born on the island it still represented a separation and a distinction of that African/Mulatto presence. So at the core of the word it reflects the Dominican "wish" to be Spanish, even if so little, so that they weren't in fact Black/African/Mulatto.
And the final example that I use in my argument is how for example in the US you have some that will argue for the usage of the word "Nigga" over "Nigger," how homosexuals have begun using the word "Queer," the usage of the word "Nazi" or the usage of the words "mixed, mulatto, breed etc." Though you might try to provide a modern day usage or connotation, in the end the word reverts back to its original usage and definition.
So much for subtle arguments. I will stop trying to do that as I see that some on this board can't see through them and must have the arguments spelled out for them. Above the heads and under the heels. Here is something else I will spell: sit on it and spin.
Mr. Lu (a.k.a. Mr. 'M. Gerbil')
This pretty much sums it up. As far as I know the word has been diluted of its original meaning for some time. I have always used it in this context. Denigrating anybody was the furthest thing from my mind.
It's not about denigrating
I would guess none of us would want to denigrate another person. But just because of my educational background and my interests and my future academic goals I enjoy getting to the core details of subjects. Though we use words freely and sometimes never think or care of what they mean words are powerful and as a tool we can understand specifics of words so we can use them to our advantage.
I look at some of the words in Dominican Spanish and the way the word has come about, its use, its previous and current usage gives me more insight into the Dominican mindset. For me it has always dealt with an issue of identity which I am on a constant quest to define and understanding words, and especially language, is just another tool in that quest.
I would guess none of us would want to denigrate another person. But just because of my educational background and my interests and my future academic goals I enjoy getting to the core details of subjects. Though we use words freely and sometimes never think or care of what they mean words are powerful and as a tool we can understand specifics of words so we can use them to our advantage.
I look at some of the words in Dominican Spanish and the way the word has come about, its use, its previous and current usage gives me more insight into the Dominican mindset. For me it has always dealt with an issue of identity which I am on a constant quest to define and understanding words, and especially language, is just another tool in that quest.
I think the vote is out, for 99.9999% of the Domincans that use the word here in the DR(sorry dominicanyols don't count) the meaning has lost all of it's historical connection and simply means native/local. As for the minority language anthropolgists, go at it.
Personally, I think this thread has run it's course and I am for closing now before it turns into a "free for all".
Texas Bill
Texas Bill
Survey?
Interesting number.. did you do a survey to come up with this figure or did you just make it up? How many Dominicans did you poll for this? And where did the whole "Dominican Yo" reference come up? Is there a particular reason you used this word here?
Interesting number.. did you do a survey to come up with this figure or did you just make it up? How many Dominicans did you poll for this? And where did the whole "Dominican Yo" reference come up? Is there a particular reason you used this word here?
Yes, that's what I thought of your post.
Most Dominicans, even--aNd especiAlLy--the oneS Attaining Wiki CONnoisseurship, will never adMit ignorAnce regardiNg the meaning of the word criollo, easily dismissing it as "home-grown" and using the very same word as an example: "You know, like huevos y pollos: pollo criollo v. pollo americano, Jos?."
Obviously I made it up. The reference to the Dominicans raised in NY is my opinion that they don't think like the natives here, they are much more aware of racial "issues", including nuances of words, etc. Here in the DR, a moreno is just that, a moreno, as well as an indio, etc. I don't get offended when they call me rubio either, and they do it a lot. I like the way we do things here in the DR in this regard.
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