Ex Haitian Presidents returning

dulce

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Does anyone share my opinion that both of the crooks are coming back to steal more money? They see tons of money pouring into Haiti and see that others are stealing it before they get a chance to get thier hands on it? What to hell? They spent all that they stole before and are greedy for more.
 
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getthesenets

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I believe that the task of rebuilding Haiti is so daunting that it would intimidate almost anybody who would GENUINELY try to do it.

But, to play the role and have control over all the money that's been pledged...almost anybody is qualified to do that.

It's like a film actor who does an action film......he doesn't do his own stunts, so ANYBODY can play that role.

Jackie Chan...on the other hand.....


More important than the fact that both are only interested in money are the lack of accomplishments that are the legacy of both "leaders".


People have their ideas about Castro, but at the end of the day look at Cuba and look at Haiti.
 

bob saunders

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People have their ideas about Castro, but at the end of the day look at Cuba and look at Haiti.

Not a fair comparison - look at the starting points, look at the assistance Castro received from USSR and look at how educated and organized Cuba was even 40 years before the Castro beast took over.
 

pedrochemical

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Not a fair comparison - look at the starting points, look at the assistance Castro received from USSR and look at how educated and organized Cuba was even 40 years before the Castro beast took over.


Debateable.
The USSR has not existed for a generation.

And conversely - contrast US policy towards and impact on Cuba and Haiti.

Bob - do not confuse democracy with freedom - which Americans like to do.
 

bob saunders

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Debateable.
The USSR has not existed for a generation.

And conversely - contrast US policy towards and impact on Cuba and Haiti.

Bob - do not confuse democracy with freedom - which Americans like to do.

There's no confusion, I'm very familiar with Cuba, having been there a number of times and having many Cuban relatives - some party members and some dissidents. When Cuba was receiving subsides from the Soviets, it was the USSR, It was partly the break up of the USSR that resulted in no more money coming Castro's way. This resulted in extreme hardship for Cubans. Cuban felt abandoned as a result.
Cuba, regardless of the spin certain people like to put on the time before the Cuban revolution, was a well organized country with proper infrastructure, education, hospitals...etc. Haiti has never been organized.
Democracy without freedom is not Democracy, at least in our modern definition.
1. A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections.
2. The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life.
3. Protection of the human rights of all citizens.
4. A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

I know the difference between an elected dictatorship and Representative Democracy.
 
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RacerX

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There's no confusion, I'm very familiar with Cuba, having been there a number of times and having many Cuban relatives - some party members and some dissidents. When Cuba was receiving subsides from the Soviets, it was the USSR, It was partly the break up of the USSR that resulted in no more money coming Castro's way. This resulted in extreme hardship for Cubans. Cuban felt abandoned as a result.
Cuba, regardless of the spin certain people like to put on the time before the Cuban revolution, was a well organized country with proper infrastructure, education, hospitals...etc. Haiti has never been organized
.
Democracy without freedom is not Democracy, at least in our modern definition.
1. A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections.
2. The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life.
3. Protection of the human rights of all citizens.
4. A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

I know the difference between an elected dictatorship and Representative Democracy.

No it wasnt. It was another Kleptocracy administered by the US pupper Fulgencio Bautista. If the place was that great, he would have never been toppled. That is self explanatory. Castro was a lawyer in the Bautista days and could have easily made himself comfortable in the Cuban political environment. Guevara was a doctor from an upper middle class bourgeoise family. These guys didnt need to lead a revolution. They could have both opened practices in Havana and made themselves rich.

....and before the Revolution, Cuba had a 3% literacy rate.
 

Chip

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Yes they are coming back for the money. None of them ever gave a damn for their own people.

Fortunately, as it is set up now the individual major donors of projects of the Clinton Commission will have complete control over disbursement of funds as opposed to the commissioners (Hatian and foreigners). This will greatly limit the grafting.
 

pedrochemical

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Aug 22, 2008
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But the American arrogance of assuming that freedom is synonymous with democracy is stunning.
Not you particularly, but the US in general.

You can see this in the way that the US likes to try to "Impose Democracy".
Do you see the contradiction in the the phrase "Impose Democracy"

We can see that it does not work - Iraq and Afghanistan for example.


And while we are handing out bullet-pointed arbitrary definitions off the top of our heads, try this..

Freedom.
  • The freedom to feed yourself and your family.
  • The freedom to sleep safely in your bed at night.
  • The freedom to drink clean water and eat enough food each day.
  • The freedom to aspire to a good life for yourself and a better life for your children.
Democracy is fought for and won - not handed down by the good grace of economic ideologues. And Democracy comes in many different forms - it is a continuum from real democracy to pretend democracy.
The US is somewhere in the middle.
The UK is just a big old anachronistic mess - but it kind of works.
Haiti is a flawed democracy.
The D.R. is a flawed democracy.

China seem to have played it quite smart - give the people the economy but keep hold of the politics.
Apart from a few intellectuals, the Chinese want economic freedom.
Representative democracy is secondary.

And the so called US democracy has thrown up some of the most distasteful examples of economic exploitation and moral corruption possible.
 

Chip

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And the so called US democracy has thrown up some of the most distasteful examples of economic exploitation and moral corruption possible.

Associating some US businesses with US poltics and democracy is not logical, ie big business exploitation is not something American or much less democratic for that example. Look at England for example. :)
 

greydread

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But the American arrogance of assuming that freedom is synonymous with democracy is stunning.
Not you particularly, but the US in general.

.........And the so called US democracy has thrown up some of the most distasteful examples of economic exploitation and moral corruption possible.

Indian Wars Time Table

Slavery in the United States | Economic History Services

Some of us understand that you're not referring to US "Business" but directly to the US Government. The government of the USA is a type of democracy which is referred to as a "Constitutional Republic". Business interests and government interests in this typ of democracy are inseparable as the theory goes: "What's good for business is good for the people"

More land and more labor (for free if you don't count the cost of human lives)was very good for the growth of US business therefore it was very good for the people, right?

Inhumanity to one's fellow Man has always been good for business. BebeDoc understands this just as his Papa did and that's why they were propped up by US business interests (AKA: "government"). The Haitian people will get what's coming to them once business gets going.

I wonder how many people realize that in the early history of the US only landowners had the right to vote in most States?
 

pedrochemical

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Yes it is logical - who funds the participants of US democracy?
One word - "lobbyists!"

US politics are not about ideology, they are about economic vested interests - pure and simple.



Look, America is an adolescent nation - about a dozen generations old.
Other countries like Italy and Britain have been the predominant superpowers in their time. It is not sustainable and it will end for the US as it did for all the others.

And yes, look at the UK, Chip.
We did some terrible stuff in the name of empire - and the empire was entirely about economics.
We used the money we made from the slave trade to get the industrial revolution going, for example.

So why does not the US learn from history that abusing the rest of the world to maintain economic dominance and profit is not only wrong, it is ultimately self destructive.

The only reason that the UK is still a player on the world stage is nuclear weapons - plain and simple. Who would give a crap about the UK if we could not blow the world to sh!t? Nobody!
We would be Holland (Although less culturally advanced).

Chip, if you think that US politics are not immensely intertwined with US business then you really need to rethink.
 

bob saunders

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No it wasnt. It was another Kleptocracy administered by the US pupper Fulgencio Bautista. If the place was that great, he would have never been toppled. That is self explanatory. Castro was a lawyer in the Bautista days and could have easily made himself comfortable in the Cuban political environment. Guevara was a doctor from an upper middle class bourgeoise family. These guys didnt need to lead a revolution. They could have both opened practices in Havana and made themselves rich.

....and before the Revolution, Cuba had a 3% literacy rate.
In 1958 Cuba had an 82 percent Literacy rate.
Guevara was a serial killer that needed to kill things to satify some inner hunger. Castro is rich, far richer and far more powerful than if he would have just had a law practise. He is also guilty of killing more Cubans than Bautista. As far as literacy, my in-laws arrived in Cuba from Italy in 1925. Both were university educated, as were their children ( in Cuba) long before Castro came around.

Cuba Before Fidel Castro / Contacto Magazine
 

pedrochemical

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Wow Bob, I was not aware that Bautista was a democratically elected leader who defended the welfare of and had the support of the majority of Cubans.

That is why I like DR1 - I learn something new every day.
 

bob saunders

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Wow Bob, I was not aware that Bautista was a democratically elected leader who defended the welfare of and had the support of the majority of Cubans.

That is why I like DR1 - I learn something new every day.

I know I didn't say that. Are you in the habit of putting words in peoples mouths. I thought you were better than that. Actually Bautista was elected his first time, but not his second time. I never said Bautista was a choir boy. Castro was never elected, not in a democratic election where he wasn't the only candidate. Given total control of a country like Castro has had for more than 50 years a monkey could have performed better.
 

pedrochemical

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I am no supporter of Castro - but he has not been given a fair crack of the whip.
He has been crapped on by the US - plain and simple.



However, I will only speak of things that I have seen with my own eyes.

The US have been pumping cash into Haiti for a long time - they supported and funded Papa Doc entirely becasue he took an anti-communist, anti Castro stance.

After 80 years of US aid, the place is fkd!.

Go take a look at Cap Haitian
You will see a power station there - it was funded by Chavez and built by Cubans.
That is real - it works - it improves the lives of Haitians.

The US?
They have built a 4billion US$ (allegedly) embassy whose sole function is to refuse visas to Haitians.

Well done America!
Shame on you Castro and Chavez.
 

bob saunders

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I am no supporter of Castro - but he has not been given a fair crack of the whip.
He has been crapped on by the US - plain and simple.



However, I will only speak of things that I have seen with my own eyes.

The US have been pumping cash into Haiti for a long time - they supported and funded Papa Doc entirely becasue he took an anti-communist, anti Castro stance.

After 80 years of US aid, the place is fkd!.

Go take a look at Cap Haitian
You will see a power station there - it was funded by Chavez and built by Cubans.
That is real - it works - it improves the lives of Haitians.

The US?
They have built a 4billion US$ (allegedly) embassy whose sole function is to refuse visas to Haitians.

Well done America!
Shame on you Castro and Chavez.

Fair crack at the whip! WOW. He had the entire destiny of the country of Cuba under his control and he made stupid decisions that were not made in the best interests of the Cuban people. He had billions from the soviets, and now billions from Chavez. Raul just laid off 500,000 people from their government jobs with almost no private industry for them to get new jobs in. Cuba has frequent brown outs/Black outs even though they have a ready supply of oil and gas to run their power plants - electricity theft is a huge problem in Cuba, just like the DR. Most of the Cubans that are in Venezuela are terrified that they'll be killed by locals (some have been)
Is not some of the infrastructure in Haiti American built/funded? The crumbling infrastructure in Cuba was built by the American in the 1920's and nothing has been maintained or improved upon since.
 

pedrochemical

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Aug 22, 2008
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Maybe if the US took its foot of Cuba's neck then something might change?

And what infrastructure in Haiti are you talking about?
Please be specific.
I have been specific about one of Cuba's and Venezuela's many contributions to Haiti.

Let us get this straight.
As I have always stressed - the US is theoretically the greatest country on earth.
All that "huddled masses" and "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" stuff - excellent - but they do a lot of bad stuff too and all for the sake of economic domination.

Just because somebody recognises that, it does not make them Antiamerican.
Quite the opposite - I would like the US to get back to its principles exactly because it still has the potential to be the greatest country on earth.
 

getthesenets

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I am no supporter of Castro - but he has not been given a fair crack of the whip.
He has been crapped on by the US - plain and simple.



However, I will only speak of things that I have seen with my own eyes.

The US have been pumping cash into Haiti for a long time - they supported and funded Papa Doc entirely becasue he took an anti-communist, anti Castro stance.

After 80 years of US aid, the place is fkd!.

Go take a look at Cap Haitian
You will see a power station there - it was funded by Chavez and built by Cubans.
That is real - it works - it improves the lives of Haitians.

The US?
They have built a 4billion US$ (allegedly) embassy whose sole function is to refuse visas to Haitians.

Well done America!
Shame on you Castro and Chavez.

I fault papa and baby the most for the condition of Haiti today because of the pivotal time in world history when they were absolute rulers of the country.

during the cold war.....both "sides" tried to buy influence and footholds in several places across the world.....millions of dollars were "given" to these leaders.

and papa and baby specifically, but several leaders around the world....blew a chance to use the funding to develop infrastructure and their economies.... they enriched themselves...
when the cold war was over.....and when the ussr collapsed....US didn't have a reason to continue to "give" some of these countries money because they know longer served the same strategic purposes...



Castro's leadership AFTER the USSR collapsed is what I bring up to people who won't assign blame to leaders who have failed but who pull every excuse out in the book.

If I'm not mistaken.....when Katrina hit the gulfcoast of the Americas, Cuban medics and releif were en route within hours.....or Castro offered their assistance within hours.....and were turned down...

I'm certain the dozens if not hundreds of American citizens' lives could have been saved had Cuba been allowed to assist.

What Cuba has done for Haiti is documented. Have helped in very practical ways....done what they planned, helped train Haitians....built infrastructure..and then LEFT.
 

bob saunders

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Maybe if the US took its foot of Cuba's neck then something might change?

And what infrastructure in Haiti are you talking about?
Please be specific.
I have been specific about one of Cuba's and Venezuela's many contributions to Haiti.

Let us get this straight.
As I have always stressed - the US is theoretically the greatest country on earth.
All that "huddled masses" and "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" stuff - excellent - but they do a lot of bad stuff too and all for the sake of economic domination.

Just because somebody recognises that, it does not make them Antiamerican.
Quite the opposite - I would like the US to get back to its principles exactly because it still has the potential to be the greatest country on earth.
From Wikipedia:

The US administration dismantled the constitutional system, reinstituted labor conscription for building roads, and established the National Guards that ran the country by violence after the Marines left.[9] It also made massive improvements to infrastructure: 1700 km of roads were made usable; 189 bridges were built; many irrigation canals were rehabilitated, hospitals, schools, and public buildings were constructed, and drinking water was brought to the main cities.
US foot on Cuba's neck? Cuba is free to trade with any country it wants, except free and open trade with the USA. Castro uses the embargo as an excuse for his failures, and it works because you believe it. The largest exporter of food to Cuba is the evil USA. America does and always has done things they feel is in the best interests of America. All other countries do the same. You don't think Cuban doctors just go to countries out of the goodness of their hearts. Surely you aren't that naive. You would think with Cuba being so close they could have been taking Haitians by the thousands to Cuba for education and then sending them back to Haiti.
Do you not think it's annoying sitting here in the free north strong and free and listen to Obama babble about being the leader of the free world, and only in America can people dare to dream. How arrogant, and I'm generally pro-American.
 

Squat

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Jan 1, 2002
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I can't believe you guys are comparing Haiti & Cuba and not mentioning this huge elephant in the room... Politically correctness will kill you, eventually...
Pedro, you're in PP... Come on...
?vident, mais impossible ? dire...