If you Dont like Poor Why live in DR

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I had to first DEBATE if I should post here or under
general. Under General the quote is

"For all those questions without a home.
Not for the faint hearted or easily offended!"

But Colon would wack anybodys post if you pissed him off in a debate. So I'll try and post here.

What kills me is some posters I imagine are businss owners in the Dominican Republic, but would talk so much junk about poor people. Why in the hell would live in one of the poorest countries in the world (average income $2100 a year) if you dont like and don't want to be around poor people because you think they are lazy, no good, etc poor people.

Why? I just don't get it.

Is their other motivations such as the woman?
 

Chirimoya

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As far as the business side of your question goes, let me put this to you: while the "Dominican Work Ethic" thread was rolling a few weeks ago, a question formed itself in my mind. If the workers here are so useless, why do all these foreign companies take the trouble to come all the way here to set up shop at the Free Trade Zones: which include garment assembly, electronics assembly factories and call centres?

Any ideas?

Chiri
 

bob saunders

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The main reason Europeans and North American come to the DR, I BELIEVE, is the weather and the price of their vacation or villa. Otherwise how much bang for the buck. As far as being around poor people, it doesn't bother me, but the garbage everywhere, the complete and utter contempt the goverment has for the people's money....etc, are factors the average westerner is going to complain about. No functioning mail system, paying for electricity you don't have or use...etc, these are problems that have little to do with poor people, other than the power they steal. The majority of the problems can be blamed on lack of education and corrupt goverments. What does that say about a people in general when they elect a goverment that is very corrupt and then do nothing about it.
Having said all this, i plan on moving to Jarabacoa in 4 years when the last child is finished school and will have no problem functioning there as i grew up poor in the wilds of northern Canada, which was i'm sure as difficult as the DR.
On closing, I agree with Tony(highly unusual) that opportunities exit for most poor Dominicans but they don't take advantage of them. My Dominican wife, who grew up with nothing and now is well educated and sucessful agrees with me.
 
bob saunders said:

On closing, I agree with Tony(highly unusual) that opportunities exit for most poor Dominicans but they don't take advantage of them. My Dominican wife, who grew up with nothing and now is well educated and sucessful agrees with me.

What are these opportunities your speak of for the poor class. Given that the island is primarily tourist. The opportunities you speak of allow them to earn more than $2100 a year?

Even though the income of the poor is very low, they are still the primary consumer. No different in the States. When they do get money, they tend to buy things typical of a the middle class and even rich class.

Is education the primary responsibility of the State like the US, or do you and others expect them to wing it on their own?
 

mondongo

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Hey sancocho, the per capita income of the DR used to be US$2100. They are not so lucky now. With devaluation.....the per capita income is closer to US$1200.
 

Robert

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Define poor?

They might be poor in the pocket, but I have met very few that are either poor in the head or the heart. Maybe that's the big difference to some of the other countries I have visited, lived and worked in.

Some of you come to this board and pass judgment on a few of us that actually live here, contribute and do our best to make a difference.

You might dump on CC, but he makes a difference. He supports a great number of people, directly and indirectly. He educates, contributes and make a difference for many peoples lives.

Why is the DR my home and why do I choose to work and run a business here? The people, the opportunities, the people, the climate, the people, the quality of life, oh yeah, the woman are beautiful as well.

As I always say, if you don't live it, don't talk about it.
 
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Tony C

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sancochojoe said:
What are these opportunities your speak of for the poor class. Given that the island is primarily tourist. The opportunities you speak of allow them to earn more than $2100 a year?
I know a Dominican from Cotui who moved to Santo Domingo. Dirt poor. Practically Illiterate. He started selling oranges on the street corner. This was back in 1988. Last I saw him he owned 8 colmados, is putting his kids through private school and drives around in a new "Jeepeta". He took advantage of the opportunity that all Domnicans have. That opportunity is the that if you work hard and dedicate yourself you WILL succeed!
What is it you want for the poor? Goverment provided jobs? Free money? Their is no secrete to success. Work hard...Reap the benifits!
sancochojoe said:
Even though the income of the poor is very low, they are still the primary consumer. No different in the States. When they do get money, they tend to buy things typical of a the middle class and even rich class.
Actually Americans tend to save more than the Average Dominican. But that is beside the point. It is their fault that they spend their money unwisely.
sancochojoe said:
Is education the primary responsibility of the State like the US, or do you and others expect them to wing it on their own?
The State provides free education. The Key word is Education! To make good citizens. It is not the states responsiblity to provide training for a trade.
Now while this education is provided buy the state it is up to the individual to decide what he/she will do with it or even take it!
 

mondongo

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good point Robert. Unless conditions have changed for the worse over the last 25 years...I must say that the first 11 years I spent as a poor kid in the DR....not once....not ever .... did I lament my economic condition while down there..when I look back at that early childhood....playing games with your imagination...making kites out of discarded clothing and palm trees...playing baseball without gloves....making bats out of tree trunks....rolling old socks outside in to make baseballs... going fishing for fun...climbing the trees and plucking ripe mangos...knowing where the chickens layed their eggs.....and eating true-to-life fresh eggs...

and so on and so forth....I must say that despite all the monetary...educational....social.......etc.....ladder rungs I have climbed......nothing has ever topped being a kid in San Juan de la Maguana
 

Jersey Devil

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Mondongo

My wife who is slightly older than you and hails from
Moca feels the same way. She never felt poor and had
a very happy childhood.

JD
 

ClippedWing

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mondongo said:
good point Robert. Unless conditions have changed for the worse over the last 25 years...I must say that the first 11 years I spent as a poor kid in the DR....not once....not ever .... did I lament my economic condition while down there..when I look back at that early childhood....playing games with your imagination...making kites out of discarded clothing and palm trees...

I don't think anyone would dispute that Dominicans are/were able to have a happy childhood and not harp on their economic situation, but the question posed was why foreigners who live there always complaining yet continue to stay. Not natives. Regardless of how Dominicans view their situation. Americans find the conditions shocking and unfamiliar.

A lot of the posters on this board who lives in the DR talk major smack about the poor in the DR. Call them lazy, chopos, poor, etc.... Okay, so then why live there?

There are some posters who don't complain and are actually contributing. Humanitarians, have businesses that employ Dominicans, and respect their host country and their people. But there's a lot of arrogant loud mouths who talk down about the new country they have chosen to make their home.

Again so why are they there? Why stay? I personally think it has to do with validation and the feelings of grandeur obtained by coexisting amongst those who are in awe of you, your money and your background. These loud mouths can be big fish and since in their home country they weren't even minnows, it makes them feel good.

Smooches..Clip.
 

XanaduRanch

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sancochojoe said:
What kills me is some posters ... talk so much junk about poor people ... you think they are lazy, no good, etc poor people. Why? I just don't get it."
Let's see if we can help with your problem. I wouldn't want to see your having to think so hard about the subject "kill" you.

I don't believe anyone here has attacked 'poor'people as being lazy, or any of the things you describe. Discussions occur continually about work ethic, corruption, etc. But only you are narrowing the field down to poor people.

I of all people am often accused of being bigoted or racist because I believe in equal opportunity for everyone and special treatment and favors for no one. And this by folks who on the one hand say it's wrong to judge someone by their skin color, and in the next sentence demand programs for blacks, asians, latinos, or whatever oppresed minority is in vogue that day.

I don't hate anyone, I certainly do not pick on 'poor' people as you put it. I am equal opportunity I pick on everyone. But mainly on addlepatedmushbrainedselfstyledliberals who anytime the well known recipe for success in life is laid out - hard work and perserverance - whine about how that's being mean to blacks and poor people and welfare mom's and gay drag queens from Miami.

Take the blinders off, please, and you won't have to have a cow man.

Tom (aka XR)
 

sjh

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until you live here you cant possibly understand the frustration of dealing with dominicans.

Watching your employee spend 100% of his weeks pay on beer on saturday evening and then asking for an advance on his salary so he can buy food.

Watching another employee spend 50% of her pay on lottery tickets and then beg for a loan.

watching a man turn down work because he is a painter and all other work is beneath him. meanwhile his family is in deeply in debt.

watching a friend spend every last peso on lotery tickets because a friend had a "magic" number system. Three times......

watching another relative sell his paycheck at 50% the face value so he can get gambling cash 2 weeks early.

another friend who is barely making ends meet will only buy the most expensive name brands of clothing and hair products. She cant afford them. Then complains about how little money she has.

these cases are by no means unique. I could think of 20 more and I have only been here a few months.

all this frustration doesnt mean I dont want to live here. I like it here and I dont plan to go back. Does it make me hate "poor" people? no but it sure doesnt make me give handouts either.
 

AZB

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Many foreigners who live here may not have to deal with poor dominicans 24/7. Many well-off foreigners live in their own private gatted communities where the surroundings are more like a resort than a poor barrio where the poor live. They only come into contact with poor dominicans when they have to employ them to do a job or if they are dating a barrio guy or gal. Most foreigners who come here with a good plan and financial backings don't end up living with the poor. These folks never get to see riots, floods or any other social disturbances that you get to read about in papers.
For example I live in Santiago but I live in a nicer residential area where all my neighbors are dominicans from USA. Its quiet and fairly clean area. All the floods that you see that have swept away homes of the many poor folks are not within miles range from my view. I never get to see any tires burning or heavy flooding unless I get out of the home and go to poor barrios. In other words, I would have to go out of my way to see the poverty and social disturbances.
We do have long black outs from time to time but if you are financially equipped, you would get a nice sized inverter and a back up generator. There is always a solution for every problem that you are faced in DR.
Yes the poor dominican mentality bothers me so I try to stay with the folks who act and think more reasonably. Not all dominicans are poor and make 5-8k pesos a month salary. There are many rich dominicans who can make many wealthy americans looks like middle class (judging from how they live and spend).
The dominican friend s I move around with have decent houses and own their own cars. They are middle class and a few are upper middle class. I don't have to loan them money and don't have to pay for their bills. The useless friends I had before are all out of the picture now. You must become very selective in whom you socialize with becuase you are constantly watched by the locals here.
So we don't come here to see the poor suffer or to make fun of them. Even the better class dominicans don't keep a social contact with the chopos and the poor. We only interact with them when we absolutely have to.
Have a nice day.
AZB
 

Juan_Lopez

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Dominicans Love Life........... Rich or Poor!!!!

Take MONEY $$$$$$$ out of the equation and you will find a country that is vibrant, colorful and full of life. Great opportunities for a myriad of things.

I GET IT !!!!
 
I can't believe posters here are not pulling each others heads off.
This is great So far.

1. Look someone said define poor...because they are rich in other areas. I define poor as "NO DAMN MONEY". Simple enough. I know people live and visit the country because the people in general are rich in personality, hospitality, family and etc. Well some will debate that. So to be clear economically poor.

2. One person said, if you don't live it don't talk about it...hmmmmm that comment sounds familiar when they talk about other groups of people who they never walked in their shoes, but fill comfortable talking about them.

3. One person said...A popular poster on DR1 whom I've bumpted heads with on this site hires many Dominicans directly and indirectly. Wonderful. keep it up. I also say that you don't have to live in the the country directly to have an impact on the lives in that country. You had mentioned indrectly, well I'm pretty sure there are some people indrectly impacting the lives positivly in the region. Also, being a business owner in the country is not the only qualifier to do such.

4. Another poster said, its not the State to provide Training for the citizens, only education. I would say, don't you think it might help. You would at least try to create an incentive. They do that in the states so they can increase the tax base. That would be common since for a country, especially for poor countries.

5. There was a comment about saving money. Saving money means you have available income after the bills and personal spending. I reeeeaally don't think many Dominicans do not have that. You can't compare them to Americans who average $40,000 will 2.5 cars 3.5 TV's and a closet full of clothes as big as a bedroom. But in Debt up to their ears. BIG difference.


6. Then one poster mentioned he don't believe posters here have attacked the poor.......Well I say, I would not have started the post if I didn't read all the comments made about poor people in the Dominican Republic. Even by people who claim they hire many of them.

7. Another person mentioned he beleives in equal opportunity. I think all of us do. I think. But people always seem to think programs for poor and minorities is wrong and they are on an equal playing field. Let me mentioned someting that President Lyndon Johnson said, and I'm paraphrasing for all you nit picky ones out there...... You cant expect to have people in chains for several generations and then take them off and put them on a starting line in a race and say....ok everyone is on an equal playing field. Thats morally, unethical and just plain out evil.

I worked as a Government Contract for almost 12 years and also while I was doing my graduate studies...I've seen so many forms of what you call "handouts" ie Nepatism, who your daddy is, economics, athletics. All forms of unqualified hand outs......yet we bash programs for the poor who we depend on to keep our business running and the minority who represent less than 10% of the working force and label them unqualified. Are people that greedy.

8. Then someone claims how the poor spends their money. You honestly think people with money spend wisely to. Should I mention the percentage of economic debt well-to-do people who are simply trying to keep up with the Jones. There is a good book out their called "The millionaire next door" Read it, it may provide a little insight.

No matter what country you go to that has the lottery. States included....the number one buyer of lotter tickets are low income...........let them have that one since of hope. If you are concerned then tell the government to stop leaching their citizens. Alcoholism is a form of depression, it does not just fall on the laps of poor people. I've been around many people in my office who keeps of swig of alcohol to maintain their habit.

9. Finally someone mentioned they moved to the country to live in a gated community so that don't have to mingle with the "commoners' I guess they mingle just to get the sex, eat thier food and dance to their music. All I can say on that is "Typical"
 
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Tom F.

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This can be blamed on the patron system that exists in the DR. My brother-in-law (Dominican) and I were once talking about wages he pays his employees to work his farm. The tarifa at that time was RD$3,000/month. When I asked him why he might pay a little more, and he confusingly look at me and said, 3,000 is the tarifa. When his full-time employees needed a new bed, a new laterine put in or pharmacutical medicine, they have to come ask for additional money. When I proposed that he pay twice what he pays and tell his employees to solve their own problems, he felt that the extra money might be spent on booze and women and they would still come to him for the extras.

Some other "primos" of my wife who are still in the campo, sit around all day and do practically nothing. The other cousins in Nueva York send money (their patrons). There is plenty of available land in the families to experiment with vegatables, flowers or other agricultural products which might get a higher price than traditional products. If nothing else, for their own consumption. I heard all the exuses about prices being low, not worth the time and the rest. They prefer to sit around and spend their day, listening to music, dominios, eating and watching their women do all the work. Maybe if the primos quit sending money, they would be a little more motivated.

As far as feeling like you are part of the elite when you aren't at home; it wears off overtime. You end up treating the poorer Dominicans like the rich and middle class Dominicans treat them. Like wiggling your finger at venders on the beach instead of saying "no thank you". Then you begin to become friends with the middle class Dominicans to avoid constantly being asked to fill a prescription, loan money and the rest.

When I managed a business in Sosua with 16 emloyees, the advances and loans was stopped and employee theft was a huge problem. Even sons of families who we have know for many years eventually stole from the business and had to be fired. At the Christmas dinner, I was by far the worst dressed. And watch out at Christmas time, most who you have done business with, ask for their navideno. I was told that traditionally, Christmas eve was when the poor would knock on the doors of those of means and ask for a regalo of some sort. This may be how the 13 month was inserted in the labor laws of the country.
 

ClippedWing

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Re: Re: If you Dont like Poor Why live in DR

XanaduRanch said:

I of all people am often accused of being bigoted or racist because I believe in equal opportunity for everyone and special treatment and favors for no one. And this by folks who on the one hand say it's wrong to judge someone by their skin color, and in the next sentence demand programs for blacks, asians, latinos, or whatever oppresed minority is in vogue that day.

Tom (aka XR)

Dominicans are demanding Affirmative Action programs? I didn't know that. Is it a law or something? Or was this in the past? Interesting. I assumed the playing field would be more level there for some reason and no need for these types of programs. So what has happened with this?
 

ClippedWing

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sjh said:
until you live here you cant possibly understand the frustration of dealing with dominicans.

Watching your employee spend 100% of his weeks pay on beer on saturday evening and then asking for an advance on his salary so he can buy food.

Watching another employee spend 50% of her pay on lottery tickets and then beg for a loan.


So it's not because they are poor that bugs you, but because they are poor AND have their priorities misplaced. I can definately see how that would be frustrating. I had a friend(US) who didn't have two nickels, she was on welfare, lived in her mom's basement, no job- but for her son's 2 year old birthday party, she goes out and rents a clubhouse, has it catered, rents a pony, a clown and a DJ. She was out there borrowing money and stuff to pull this off. I was like you're stupid. He's 2. He'll have no memory of this. But I guessed she was doing it to impress the adults.

But my question is, why do you think Dominicans do the things you listed? Buying beer and lottery tickets seems to be more of a self absorbed issue rather than trying to impress someone. Are they used to the handouts and loans and just work them into their budget? When you give them loans, do they pay you back?

Is it just the poor Dominicans who do this? I know a lot of middle class Americans who live paycheck to paycheck because they're too busy buying the latest new SUV, sending their kids to private schools they can't afford and Chowing down at Ruth Chris Steakhouse 3 times a week. Do middle class Dominicans also have their priorities misplaced or is this only typical in the lower poorer classes?

Smooches...Clip.
 

mondongo

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We all like to complain....but hate when others do. bitch,bitch,bitch is all i'm hearing. since so many of you claim to susbcribe to free market economics....then set your won rules and get the employees that you want. If they don't exist in the DR, then make like a Capitalist and pack your bags.
 

XanaduRanch

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ClippedWing said:
Is it just the poor Dominicans who do this? I know a lot of middle class Americans who live paycheck to paycheck because they're too busy buying the latest new SUV, sending their kids to private schools they can't afford and Chowing down at Ruth Chris Steakhouse 3 times a week. Do middle class Dominicans also have their priorities misplaced or is this only typical in the lower poorer classes?
This is the heart of the matter, CW. Thank you for posting this.

Most non-Domincans here post their experiences with Dominicans of all economic status. They pretty much all behave the same with some very notable exceptions. Most of us aren't criticizing poor Dominican'sbehavior with the money or opportunities that hey have available to them. We criticize Dominican's behavior. Then someone posts that we hate poor people.I guess because most Dominican's are poor and they think that we are attacking one segment of the population. Not true. These are general traits of lots of Dominicans! I must say I know many hard-working conscientious Dominicans. I know them well, because when I encounter one, I hire him or her. Sadly though they are the exception rather than the rule.

As to special proghrams, I was referring to the U.S. But they do that here. Not so much race-based, although Dominicans are very skin-color conscious. It'smore group based. Bus drivers, farmers, businesses, etc. that all demand special priveleges or exemptions. One big exemption seems to be Haitian looking folks where no programs exist, or could due to the biases that exist.

Originally posted by mondongo
We all like to complain....but hate when others do. bitch,bitch,bitch is all i'm hearing. since so many of you claim to susbcribe to free market economics....then set your won rules and get the employees that you want. If they don't exist in the DR, then make like a Capitalist and pack your bags
This is just ignorant. It's a flurry of words that evaporate like snowflakes on your tongue in a blizzard. I have no idea what this was meant to convey. Please practice at expressing a coherent thought offline, and then by all means post again. But take your time. It's apparent you need the excercise.

Tom (aka XR)

P.S.
CW, I am neither fat, nor old, nor bald or balding. And in none of the six languages in which I am currently fluent do I speak with a Kentucky accent. English included. Unless it would turn you on, and then I could fake one ... LOL.
 
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