The Taxes and those annoying street vendors!!!

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Ok, first things first.

DR1 has been lately, hmm how can I say this in a manner that is not too blunt, shall we say dead?

The debates section is dead. The living section is so so. The business section would be bankrupt by now in a real business. The environmental section has never been too exciting, but even on its own standard is so and so.

DR1 is in the duldrums. For this reason I think its time for a little crancking of the stove and stirring the pot a little.

What better subject than those annoying (let's face it, they are annoying) street vendor and taxes (which are even more annoying than the first one!)

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There is a tremendous problem in this country and this problem is not just limited to this country alone. The problem is called "the informal economy".

What is the informal economy? Any company, individual, etc who conducts a form of business beyond the radar of the authorities. These businesses don't pay taxes, are extremely inefficient, and penalize the more productive firms at the expense of consumer, national well being, and the general productivity of the country.

What happens when a peso is goes to a street vendor as oppose to a legitimate business? Well, keep reading...

That peso suddenly is not taxed! What does this means?

This means that if the government was to maintain tax levels constant (ie. not raise or decrease them), each year the government would be receive less and less tax revenue.

Why is this the case?

Because more and more people are diverting more and more pesos to illegitimate businesses that are not getting taxed.

How does the government makes up the difference?

There is only one way, increasing the tax rates in order to keep the same revenue stream.

Who gets penalized with each tax increase?

The middle classes and the legitimate businesses, which happens to be the most productive and efficient businesses in the country!

What do legitimate companies do when this occurs? They increase their prices.

Who gets hurt when this happens? The consumer!

Phew, now lets review how did all of this came to be!

It just so happens that people spend money in the informal sector for one of two reasons:

1. Sympathy

2. Convenience

For those who feel sympathy for those "struggling" people trying to live by selling illegitimately in the street somehow feel that they are doing something good by penalizing those people who took a job in a legitimate business!

How can I explain how wrong and hurtful this act of what would seem to be goodwill is to a society is really complicated, but I will suffice this by saying that if you read the book Freakonomic, you will understand how often reality is not what people think it actually is!

Everytime you give money to a illegitimate business, you are doing more HARM than GOOD. As hard as it is to believe, YOU ARE!

For those who only care about convenience, well tell that to the clerk who works in Plaza Lama or in La Sirena. Go right ahead, tell him/her that you will penalize his/her decision to work in a legitimate business because the guy who walks right up to your window on the intersections is much more convenient. I'm sure the workers of La Sirena will understand!

In conclusion,

If people want to see taxes drop or at the very least remain the same for a lengthy period of time, STOP SUPPORTING THE INFORMAL SECTOR.

You will be doing much more good to the country, you will be giving more goodwill, you will be helping the country in a much better fashion by supporting businesses that are legitimate and efficient rather than support inefficient and illegal businesses that simply causes the price of everything and taxes to increase at the expense of the very same people we are all trying to help out of poverty!

Now, let's debate! Good, bad? What do you think? For the sake of DR1, let's start the debate!

-NAL
 

MrMike

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a word about street vendors

Do you feel sorry for people who wash windows and sell trinkets at stoplights?

Let's do some math.

Johnny cleans windshields at the stoplight for a living.

Johnny's light changes once per minute.

Johnny cleans one windshield only during each change, averaging 5 pesos per windshield.

60 windshields an hour,

8 hours a day.

Johnny makes 48,000 pesos a month, has no operating expenses and pays no taxes.

Meanwhile college graduates handing Johnny 5 pesos because tehy feel sorry for him are competing for jobs that pay 15,000 a month (and untill today) had to pay hefty income tax on this "luxurious" salary.

Still feeling sorry for Johnny?
 

suarezn

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Feb 3, 2002
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That's some great math you guys are pulling here...48,000/month...

I think I will become a window washer save my money for a few years. I should be able to retire with that...

Anyhow...The informal sector? The only issue I have with these people is that they setup anywhere without respect to anything specially the sidewalks. Other than that I think they provide a great service...Chimichurry at 3:00 AM? You got it! I agree they normally don't pay taxes themselves, but isn't the food they buy already taxed? Since they don't pay taxes they can sell cheaper, which means more disposable income for the general population.

At any rate I'm not paying any taxes as long as I can avoid it. I paid almost 100,000 pesos at Ochoa in taxes when I was building my house. How much of that money did Ochoa report to the government? If they actually did pay it to the government, how much of my money went to something useful like education, health, etc vs. to the corrupt pockets of Diandino et al?

I ain't paying...Not taxes, not electricity, nothing...and I will support the informal economy any time I can, not necessarily because of altruism, but because at least the profits are going to the private sector which will invest it wisely instead of a bunch of crooked politicians...plus I love a Chimi at 3:00 AM.
 

liam1

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Jun 9, 2004
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i think the shoe-shining kids make above the minimum wage as well, and pay no taxes. not saying they should be, just saying. :paranoid: :paranoid: :paranoid:

PS. if the government could find a way to tax the prostitutes on their income, the budget would increase dramastically.
 
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Simbul

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Nal, I understand what you are saying and would completely agree except for some other considerations.

I am not an expert on Dominican politics or infrastructure, but read many of the multiple news/culture sources on the DR. Almost everyday there is a story on a shady business/political deal or investigation. Just recently, there was the story on how the government tried to implement electronic payments for government workers and before the year was over all workers quickly were off the program. It was cited that they couldn't get the undertable money with their income so well recorded.

With all the scandals at the top levels, how is it so annoying to you that those who are the least fortunate find ANY means to survive in a country that has raised taxes over 20% on some of the most basic living items without providing an increase in income or jobs? Are you suggesting that if those vendors pay taxes the prices will drop, roads will be improved, the electricity sector will be made stable, medical services will expand, and the politicians will be more honest about their income?

Of those taxes that are paid, what is the comparison between dividing it for education, job creation, health infrastructure, roads, etc...? DominicanToday ran several articles commenting on the low budget set aside for education vice government spending.
 

Malibook

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Jan 23, 2002
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Nal0whs, are you claiming that you have never paid for a good or service that did not have taxes added?
And all of these providers claimed your money as income?
You have never used any bootleg software or music?

Let us assume that you are not hypocritical, do you think these people are turning down good legitimate jobs just so they can avoid paying taxes?
 
Sep 19, 2005
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interesting subject...which comes first the chicken or the egg. In the country now days how many years will a 8 year old kids live before things turn around to the point that he doesnt have to become a street vendor?

survival of the fittest , real life...do what you have to do to eat or get money..whatever YOU HAVE TO DO....beg borrow steal, work as a street vendor selling something anything!

Who will hire a 12 year old kid to do anything , so he wont be one of 30 shoe shine boys in any 4 square block area? who will hire a guy with one arm who sells fruits from a cart on any corner you can name? I guess with the fact that greed and corruption has been inbred in dominican culture , the solution is a long ways away. Face it you have to fit in if you plan to get into goverment, or big buissness... that means your gonna have to work the way the system works to get anywhere. Even if you have the desire to be legit and straight......you will go no where until you start to play by the rules that got everone where they are ahead of you...........a little gringo view

bob
 

Mirador

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Contrary to the simplistic world view of the OP, the informal economy is the direct result of globalization and inadequate neoliberal economic policies, that result in insufficient job creation. In the DR, the informal economy is estimated in about 48 percent of total economic activity. It is not illegal. Actually, the informal economy acts to reduce poverty by providing a source of income for the unemployed and unemployable.
 

Exxtol

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Jun 27, 2005
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It's still work

MrMike said:
Do you feel sorry for people who wash windows and sell trinkets at stoplights?

Let's do some math.

Johnny cleans windshields at the stoplight for a living.

Johnny's light changes once per minute.

Johnny cleans one windshield only during each change, averaging 5 pesos per windshield.

60 windshields an hour,

8 hours a day.

Johnny makes 48,000 pesos a month, has no operating expenses and pays no taxes.

Meanwhile college graduates handing Johnny 5 pesos because tehy feel sorry for him are competing for jobs that pay 15,000 a month (and untill today) had to pay hefty income tax on this "luxurious" salary.

Still feeling sorry for Johnny?

What a load of crap..........if you really believe these kid are getting 5 pesos per light. The usual going is rate is a peso or two, from what I've witnessed....and their work is "hit and miss" at best. And how about miscellaneous expenses as a "shoeshine boy"........getting robbed, raped, burned, prostituted, and murdered as a "kid" living on the street. Half of these window washer folks are kids, the other half were kids--some of them so malnourished they look 7 or 8 when they are really 12 and 13. Hell at least they're trying to do something rather than sitting on their asses with a cup in hand and a catchy "por favor, por favor".
 

MrMike

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Exxtol said:
What a load of crap..........if you really believe these kid are getting 5 pesos per light. The usual going is rate is a peso or two, from what I've witnessed....and their work is "hit and miss" at best. And how about miscellaneous expenses as a "shoeshine boy"........getting robbed, raped, burned, prostituted, and murdered as a "kid" living on the street. Half of these window washer folks are kids, the other half were kids--some of them so malnourished they look 7 or 8 when they are really 12 and 13. Hell at least they're trying to do something rather than sitting on their asses with a cup in hand and a catchy "por favor, por favor".

They are getting at least 5 pesos per light. Try giving one of them a single peso and watch the reaction. I have seen many do 2-3 winshields in a single light and a 1 peso tip is on the low side.

Have you ever done fundraising at a stoplight, like for charity work or something? It's good money in the US, you can bring in over 100 bucks an hour, I have personally seen people do better than 500 in a single hour. Less than 50 and you're doing something wrong.

Your list of miscelaneous expenses sounds like you watch too much TV. And in any case, these kids would have it rough whether they were working stoplights or not.
 

Exxtol

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MrMike said:
They are getting at least 5 pesos per light. Try giving one of them a single peso and watch the reaction. I have seen many do 2-3 winshields in a single light and a 1 peso tip is on the low side.

Have you ever done fundraising at a stoplight, like for charity work or something? It's good money in the US, you can bring in over 100 bucks an hour, I have personally seen people do better than 500 in a single hour. Less than 50 and you're doing something wrong.

Your list of miscelaneous expenses sounds like you watch too much TV. And in any case, these kids would have it rough whether they were working stoplights or not.

On the shoe shine boys getting robbed, assaulted, and even murdered by their larger counterparts--it does happen. Not only have i had the pleasure of talking with some of these kids on a regular basis, but Listin Diario has had an article on the plight of the "street children" on more than one occasion.

Try giving them something to eat next time--i've seen their reaction and it's not feigned. 48,000 pesos a year--a decent salary in the DR--yet they cannot afford any kind of dental coverage or medical insurance for all those nasty blisters on their shoeless feet, or crusty lesions on their arms. I'm still not buying.
 
Sep 19, 2005
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this past weekend, me and my gf were waiting at a chicken food place on feb 27 ave for a friend we met who has made a few songs and had them recorded. He was to meet us and take us to the studio, but thats another story. anyway , my girl went in to go to the ladies room a while I waited in the car , which was parked close to the sidewalk. This kid comes up to the window and asks for money...I did my little speel about why , me why him such and such....he was friendly and so i looked down at the bag of lemon lays that was almost empty and offered it. he took it and ate them right there. so he asked for more..I thought about it and realized I had a full bag in my luggage, as we had just come back from Sosua then. I gave him the whole bag, and it was a big bag...he took it and walked on. he got to the end of the parking lot and there was a fence. hemet up with 2 bigger kids -young men.. they talked a little bit and one grabbed the bag from him and the two big one started eating them...they pushed the kid around a little laughed at him and he just walked on!!!!!!!!!!! survival of the fittest...i really wanted to intervene, but iw as waiting for my gf to come back in addition to waiting for our friend, who didnt know my car if it was empty if he saw it!!!!!!!!

bob
 

MrMike

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Exxtol - the reason their not raking in the kind of cash my math reveals is not a problem with my math - it's one of two things:

1) not putting in the hours

2) Pimps. - they are not working for themselves, since you watch alot of TV try to schedule in "Oliver Twist". They just made a decent film adaptaion for those who lack the patience for the book.

Although I am zealously humanitarian to a fault, I do not give to street kids because I know who would be getting the benefit of my "donation" NOT THE KID.

BTW logic dictates that they would not be killing each other if there were not substantial amounts of money in question. Life is cheap here, sure, but not free.
 

Exxtol

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MrMike said:
2) Pimps. - they are not working for themselves, since you watch alot of TV try to schedule in "Oliver Twist". They just made a decent film adaptaion for those who lack the patience for the book.

Although I am zealously humanitarian to a fault, I do not give to street kids because I know who would be getting the benefit of my "donation" NOT THE KID.

BTW logic dictates that they would not be killing each other if there were not substantial amounts of money in question. Life is cheap here, sure, but not free.

You are using faulty logic, and you are using assumption to guide you. And as my good man in Under Siege 2 said, "assumption is the mother of all fu%$ ups". There is a way you can make sure your donation reaches the kid--it only takes a second to speak to a needy kid, a few minutes more to buy them an empanada for 20 pesos if you get cheese--and watch them shove it into their mouths like a bite size snickers bar.

If that surpasses the limits of your self-proclaimed humanitarianism, then have them shine your shoes and bless them with a generous tip of 10 pesos or so. Or you can buy them a couple of guineos for 2 pesos each. I personally prefer to give them food rather than money--and i make sure they eat it right there in front of me. Look you're not obligated to give them anything so don't sweat it.

And since you are so hard up in believing these kids really don't live a hard life, so be it. I love how it is always the people who have never been to a batey or worked in a barrio caliente con hueglas that tell me I've been watching too much tv--man you have no clue.
 

Chris

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Exxtol said:
You are using faulty logic, and you are using assumption to guide you. And as my good man in Under Siege 2 said, "assumption is the mother of all fu%$ ups". There is a way you can make sure your donation reaches the kid--it only takes a second to speak to a needy kid, a few minutes more to buy them an empanada for 20 pesos if you get cheese--and watch them shove it into their mouths like a bite size snickers bar.

If that surpasses the limits of your self-proclaimed humanitarianism, then have them shine your shoes and bless them with a generous tip of 10 pesos or so. Or you can buy them a couple of guineos for 2 pesos each. Look you're not obligated to give them anything so don't sweat it.

And since you are so hard up in believing these kids really don't live a hard life, so be it. I love how it is always the people who have never been to a batey or worked in a barrio caliente con hueglas that tell me I've been watching too much tv--man you have no clue.

That sounds really great in theory! Around the third time you see a kid beat up because of what you've done, you change your mind quickly.
 

Exxtol

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Chris said:
That sounds really great in theory! Around the third time you see a kid beat up because of what you've done, you change your mind quickly.

well what about this for theory...........volunteering is free! and no one gets hurt. try that next time.
 

Chris

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Exxtol said:
well what about this for theory...........volunteering is free! and no one gets hurt. try that next time.

I have no idea what you mean. But to be clear, I've seen on a few occasions that the older ones beat the younger ones up if you give the street kids food. Whether the younger ones eat the food first, or not. And the older ones are older - older enough that I certainly do not want to mess with them.

There has to be some hierarchy or structure in the street kid community, I believe. I think it is a sad sad thing, but it is not only in the Dominican Republic that this happens. My home town, Cape Town, has now shelters for the street kids and I've read the studies that they've published. It is a difficult thing, but it seems that they have a real hard time to 'rehabilitate' the kids. The kids go to shelters one or twice, and then stay away on the streets. So, the shelter is only there as a last resort.

Anyway, let me rephrase what I said in the first place in order to clarify. I have seen on three occasions that a younger kids gets beat up by older kids, simply because I gave the younger kid some food and the younger kid ate the food. Now, I question whether to give food at all. I am sure you would question too, if you saw this happening.
 
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MrMike

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Exxtol said:
You are using faulty logic, and you are using assumption to guide you. And as my good man in Under Siege 2 said, "assumption is the mother of all fu%$ ups". There is a way you can make sure your donation reaches the kid--it only takes a second to speak to a needy kid, a few minutes more to buy them an empanada for 20 pesos if you get cheese--and watch them shove it into their mouths like a bite size snickers bar.

If that surpasses the limits of your self-proclaimed humanitarianism, then have them shine your shoes and bless them with a generous tip of 10 pesos or so. Or you can buy them a couple of guineos for 2 pesos each. I personally prefer to give them food rather than money--and i make sure they eat it right there in front of me. Look you're not obligated to give them anything so don't sweat it.

And since you are so hard up in believing these kids really don't live a hard life, so be it. I love how it is always the people who have never been to a batey or worked in a barrio caliente con hueglas that tell me I've been watching too much tv--man you have no clue.

I guess I shouldn't make assumptions about the breadth of your experience, but try not to do the same with me.

I am convinced that it easier for the individual to part with some insignificant coins (or an empanada) than it is to remove themselves from a cycle that perpetuates the begging culture. The beggars capitalize on how much easier it is to toss a coin out the window than to vigorously say "NO" 27 times to each beggar and hawker at each light.

I consider it a relatively benign form of social terrorism.

You've heard "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day" well give a man a fish every day for a week and he will become hopelessly dependant on your generosity. Every day for a month and he will become pretty well convincved that you owe him that fish.

I will not miss an oportunity to make a lasting difference in a situation where I can give value for value, and improve someones life by making a permanent improvement to their value as a person and ability to take care of themselves, but giving coins to kids on the street does not fulfill any logical criteria.
 

Simbul

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Chris said:
Anyway, let me rephrase what I said in the first place in order to clarify. I have seen on three occasions that a younger kids gets beat up by older kids, simply because I gave the younger kid some food and the younger kid ate the food. Now, I question whether to give food at all. I am sure you would question too, if you saw this happening.

You don't have to. Simply withhold any aid. The CHILDREN may or may not get the chance to eat it. You can be certain they will not if you don't allow that chance. Did you detect sarcasm? I did.
 

Simbul

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In this post, my responses are in red:

MrMike said:
I am convinced that it easier for the individual to part with some insignificant coins (or an empanada) than it is to remove themselves from a cycle that perpetuates the begging culture.

From visiting a few times, reading the local news, and seeing the street children I am sure you are correct. Ahh, I wish I were a Dominican expat or citizen to insist on the government to create decent jobs for their parent/parents that would ensure enough income so the children wouldn't feel the need. I wish that those born in the lower spectrum had access to the network that opened employment jobs or financial access that being born in the right family. I wish there were well financed social programs that gave these children (not adults) an alternative from being exploited or feeling it is necessary to BEG for for subsistance (whether money or food), and attending school as they should be.

I consider it a relatively benign form of social terrorism.

Do you mean in the same form as government officials being unable to explain where most of the allocated budgets keep "disappearing" to??? :ermm:

You've heard "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day" well give a man a fish every day for a week and he will become hopelessly dependant on your generosity. Every day for a month and he will become pretty well convincved that you owe him that fish.

I am referring to the children that are too young to officially/legally find employment.

I will not miss an oportunity to make a lasting difference in a situation where I can give value for value, and improve someones life by making a permanent improvement to their value as a person and ability to take care of themselves, but giving coins to kids on the street does not fulfill any logical criteria.
:cross-eye

Aren't coins used logically to provide for other means: safety (savings), food, clothing, medical care, education, sanitary items, etc...