The Taxes and those annoying street vendors!!!

[Chris]

You don't have to. Simply withhold any aid. The CHILDREN may or may not get the chance to eat it. You can be certain they will not if you don't allow that chance. Did you detect sarcasm? I did.

Simbul, what is the right thing to do? Follow the "Feed and Beat" rule, or depend on some program or someone to do something. I am fully involved, I promise you. So, no need for sarcasm here. I wonder why you find it necessary?

What have you done lately? Besides being sarcastic to those who question what we do, and how we do it?

 

[Simbul]

I try.

Chris, I don't mean to offend, so don't take my words too harshly. I just got off a midwatch and need sleep.

If you do a search of all my initial posts since joining you will find that I am an active duty Navy-psychology major student. I regularly volunteer at shelter for experience and the need to understand what drives us as human beings in the best or worst of times. I lived in Norfolk, VA at one time and was a constant at the Goodwill and Church Street Shelters.

The 3 times I have been cosmically blessed to visit the Dominican paradise I did what I could to help the kids. A fellow shipmate and I bought breakfast for some of the kids, gave them extra for shining our shoes-so they understood hard work has rewards, and even bought antifungal foot spray for this boy with a bad infection. I know it doesn't change their regular world, but I would rather GIVE something than nothing. It wasn't to make me fee better, but to ease my rage at a WORLD that doesn't give a d*&^. I think it tells a lot when regular citizens walk by these kids and a foreigner feels the need to stop and extend a hand.

What I find confusing is the comments of those that live there or have visited far more than I have such a simplistic view of whether to give CHILDREN a coin. Whether it is taken, saved, or spent, it is still a gamble that the coin will end up where you intended. How many have gambled hundreds at the casino by the beach or on lotto tickets hoping to win, but balk at gambling those few pesos will hit the jackpot (no matter how small) for that kid. A few hundred can be spent on a ticket/resort/hotel for temporary pleasure but not a few few dollars to hopefully provide a means or small light in a dim world.

For me it is all perspective.

 

[MrMike]

Simbul, I am assuming (there I go again) that the GOAL is to provide some meaningful solution to the conditions that make children spend their playtime begging for food on dangerous street corners.

Handouts do nothing towards this goal, but clearly work against it. Tough love is still love. I can explain this concept in greater depth if it excapes you.

In most cases these children are placed on the corner to beg by their parents or some other shameless individual in authority over the child who should probably be beaten repeatedly and then locked up for this inhuman exploitation. Disfigured and retarded children are often rented out by their caretakers to professional panhandlers for this purpose as well.

I can understand that the uninformed who don't look very closely at this situation would feel they are helping by making 5 and 10 peso contributions to these tragic situations, and as such I do not judge them, but I assure you that they are not helping. The only thing they are contributing to is the likelyhood that that these conditions will continue.

 

[Simbul]

Simbul, I am assuming (there I go again) that the GOAL is to provide some meaningful solution to the conditions that make children spend their playtime begging for food on dangerous street corners.

Handouts do nothing towards this goal, but clearly work against it. Tough love is still love. I can explain this concept in greater depth if it excapes you :lick: .

In most cases these children are placed on the corner to beg by their parents or some other shameless individual in authority over the child who should probably be beaten repeatedly and then locked up for this inhuman exploitation. Disfigured and retarded children are often rented out by their caretakers to professional panhandlers for this purpose as well.

I can understand that the uninformed :glasses: who don't look very closely at this situation would feel they are helping by making 5 and 10 peso contributions to these tragic situations, and as such I do not judge them, but I assure you that they are not helping. The only thing they are contributing to is the likelyhood that that these conditions will continue.

MrMike, your veiled attempts to place yourself on a higher pedestal of having a better knowledge of understanding the conditions/situations of those less than you is....well cute. I enjoy at times pitting myself against others intellectually and may even be swayed, but this time I am cheering for the CHILDREN. Anywho:

I have met such children here many times in the all women shelters (you do know that they seperate the men and women in shelters for most US shelters???). The exploited ones, incest/raped ones-with their abused mothers, and on and on and on.... I was not allowed to offer counseling since I am not "professionally accredited", but that didn't stop them from confiding to a kind soul who handed them a plate of simple food. I truly sympathize with some social workers.

IMO, the situation persists due to the failure of the Dominican citizens and government failure to address the issue adequately. If you ask what I mean, I would respond with employment opportunities, decent wages, WORKING social programs, adequeate funding for the programs, education, adequate funding for education, etc..etc...etc... Instead there is mega funding for a metro and government budgeting that doesn't fickle down to social programs in an efficient way. I recently read a teacher begged to have a collapsing roof replaced at a school, but there hasn't been any action yet from local or government officals per WWW.DOMINICANTODAY.COM Just one example. If I am wrong, please correct me.

I will tell you something an older care center worker told me when I felt depressed after seeing trains of people walk through the doors. It is not in the direct words he said to me, but the message is the same:

It isn't the children at this stage of their lives that can change their conditions. It is either their parents who cannot or are not willing to make a change, or a system that limits them through barriers that ensure the economic/social status stays the way the elite like it and benefit from.

You may not be able to change a person's life or the world in an instant of kindness, but you can give respite from despair if only for an instant. In that instance, HOPE is born. One of those people see that SOMEONE cares and the dim HOPE of humanity. Maybe that will memory will keep them from the needle, bottle, or street corner a little longer.

HOPE in HUMANITY.

Do you remember people such as Mother Theresa, Grandma Moses, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, the man who stood in front of the Chinese tanks in Tiannen Square, etc....I won't bother with religious figures.

Then he said something, I quote over a thousand times:

IF YOU GIVE, GIVE SELFLESS, THAT WAY YOU EXPECT NOTHING IN RETURN AND ARE NOT DISAPPOINTED.

 

[MrMike]

I can see that you are convinced that uttering an 8 letter word like "children" absolves you from having to think logically.

I urge you to apply the same logic you are using here to other situations and see if it holds up.

Let's say there is a child prostitute working the beach where you are staying at the insistence of her pimps. She proposes to service you for a fee. You give her the fee but obviously refuse her services convinced you have been "kind". Her pimps are reinforced in their belief that a sucker is born every minute and the girl's exploitation continues. But, she has HOPE now, thanks to you, and HOPES it's not long before she finds another sucker just like for another momentary respite. You have diminished her need to free herself and increased her dependance on her captors, while at the same time benefitting them. Congrats! You're a damn hero.

Giving people HOPE when they are doing things THE WRONG WAY is not kindness.

If it makes you feel good about yourself then enjoy. Because you are the only one benefitting.

Giving people a glimpse or a taste of something thay can't have is generally considered cruel, teasing at the very least. So stop patting yourself on the back for it.

 

[liam1]

...Let's say there is a child prostitute working the beach where you are staying at the insistence of her pimps. She proposes to service you for a fee. You give her the fee but obviously refuse her services convinced you have been "kind". Her pimps are reinforced in their belief that a sucker is born every minute and the girl's exploitation continues. But, she has HOPE now, thanks to you, and HOPES it's not long before she finds another sucker just like for another momentary respite. You have diminished her need to free herself and increased her dependance on her captors, while at the same time benefitting them...

i never thought about it that way, but you do make sense.

 

[laurapasinifan]

I urge you to apply the same logic you are using here to other situations and see if it holds up.
Giving people HOPE when they are doing things THE WRONG WAY is not kindness.
QUOTE]

hey mrmike.....I didnt cut up you quote maliciously....just want to address it with out using all of it
anyway, you have a well defined train of thought there and it is prudent and probably the best way to go about solving many problems. Examine, theorize , conclude, and act. Long term ,not superficially. Grasp the BIG picture.

That is how it works when someONE has control over the situation. where that person can control all the variables to meet thier goal.

in this situation ( the dr and the examples given) it cant apply. the people that would like to help cannot help..period.... they are just coming by for a week or less. These people dont have the means or the time to SOLVE the overall problem..as it should be solved....and even if it can be solved it needs to be be solved on a hugely larger level, and even then knowing it will take years to solve if the remedy even works at all.

so people like some of the repliers and even myself who have felt bad for many I have seen, especially the little streets in santiago, where adults have dissabilities that are so bad I cant see how they even live with out others helping(but those types are a little different than the street vendors I can admit)....are left with just two choices......give for the moment, for that one split time slot, something to help that person..money or food or whatever OR turn your cheek and keep walking.

Even to the extent that healthy street kids and their kind are given handouts to "help" them out by unkowing or clueless tourists... at least it was a gesture and in the over all picture maintains the status quo, that one person BENEFITS in the short term..... take any starving nation of people

if you fed them you are not solving their long term problems of providing themselves with food...

but you are keeping them alive until such time as someone comes up with the solution.....wether thats god, the president, unicef, whoever.

the problem is sooooo much larger than we can grasp, and the solution is so slippery.... and can even evolve, to the point the correct solution doesnt look like it did when you started out

bob

 

[MrMike]

Thanks for your calm and well thought out response, Bob.

I just see it the way I do after so many years of living in different 3rd world countries, stuff that's messed up in the DR gets my goat bit more than others because I live here, and maybe also because like many people I feel my intelligence is insulted when I am lied to and the lie is completely stupid.

I have employees who come to work every day and do a good job doing nothing in the world that couldn't be done by the "disabled" people I see begging on the street corner.

It only takes 1 arm to asnwer the phone, less with a little ingenuity. What about the quadraplegic or the blind guy? Well there's this perfectly healthy soul dragging him around the stoplight, what the hell is wrong with him he can't leave his poor disabled dad or cousin or whatever to relax at home and go do something useful?

It doesn't take a very close look to see that these people are being exploited by others. I have it on good authority that many of them are rented out by their family by professional panhandlers, as I have mentioned before.

I make an effort not to become part of the cycle while I am looking for a way to break it.

The thing about children is they usually have parents. These parents of street children need to be found and dealt with for their criminal neglect. I believe that many of them are willingly placing their children in this position to ease their own load, and that refusing to partake in the scam is an important step. Getting others to refuse is another.

 

[bienamor]

To take 3 as an example in SD

It doesn't take a very close look to see that these people are being exploited by others. I have it on good authority that many of them are rented out by their family by professional panhandlers, as I have mentioned before.

I make an effort not to become part of the cycle while I am looking for a way to break it.

I know of at least 2 in the zona colonial that come/go to "work" in a taxi. Then there was the old gal that used to hang out at 27th Feb and Teradentes(sp) with the melted face, that was offered free plastic surgery, and turned it down as this was her lively hood. (rumor was she owned 3 houses). True there are some in need, now if we can just find out which ones they are?

Old guy on Lincoln and 27th has for years hired a kid to push his wheel chair.

 

[Exxtol]

I guess I shouldn't make assumptions about the breadth of your experience, but try not to do the same with me.

Fair enough.

I am convinced that it easier for the individual to part with some insignificant coins (or an empanada) than it is to remove themselves from a cycle that perpetuates the begging culture. The beggars capitalize on how much easier it is to toss a coin out the window than to vigorously say "NO" 27 times to each beggar and hawker at each light.

I consider it a relatively benign form of social terrorism.

okay, but the original op was about street vendors or those that sell or offer a service for monies. So are what are we talking about? Originally, i was referring to those that sell or provide a service.

You've heard "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day" well give a man a fish every day for a week and he will become hopelessly dependant on your generosity. Every day for a month and he will become pretty well convincved that you owe him that fish.

I will not miss an oportunity to make a lasting difference in a situation where I can give value for value, and improve someones life by making a permanent improvement to their value as a person and ability to take care of themselves, but giving coins to kids on the street does not fulfill any logical criteria.

You're right. I usually have the kids attempt to clean my shoes or as i stated previously, buy food for them--which IMO is completely different.

...............

 

[Simbul]

Sighing

I can see that you are convinced that uttering an 8 letter word like "children" absolves you from having to think logically.

I urge you to apply the same logic you are using here to other situations and see if it holds up.

Let's say there is a child prostitute working the beach where you are staying at the insistence of her pimps. She proposes to service you for a fee. You give her the fee but obviously refuse her services convinced you have been "kind". Her pimps are reinforced in their belief that a sucker is born every minute and the girl's exploitation continues. But, she has HOPE now, thanks to you, and HOPES it's not long before she finds another sucker just like for another momentary respite. You have diminished her need to free herself and increased her dependance on her captors, while at the same time benefitting them. Congrats! You're a damn hero.

Giving people HOPE when they are doing things THE WRONG WAY is not kindness.

If it makes you feel good about yourself then enjoy. Because you are the only one benefitting.

Giving people a glimpse or a taste of something thay can't have is generally considered cruel, teasing at the very least. So stop patting yourself on the back for it.

Sigh

If simply uttering certain words stopped a person from thinking logically, I wouldn't be able to post anything. For any given situation, there are modifying factors that affect how we responds and every situation isn't the same. You are intelligent, just stop trying to convince me by downplaying my difference of opinion.

I told you once that the volunteering or giving I do isn't for any personal benefit other than my drive to understand some of our behavorial aspects and gain experience.

In this topic, I focused on the underage Dominicans (since "children" seems to bother you) because they don't have access to many of the adult avenues of success. Your example of a child prostitute may be correct for THAT given situation, but not for all. When I gave money on my trips it was for a service and always a shoe shine. The other instances were when we bought them food or a small medical product.

Is it actually wrong for those kids to try to make a living when no one is probably doing it for them (the shoe shining/window wiping/selling trinkets/etc...I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE PROSTITUTION OR ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY-COME ON!!!)?

Your last paragraph seems to imply that these folks are locked in their situation. Do you truly think they can never have it or do they simply have to survive until a legal working age to attain it?

 

[MrMike]

Sigh

If simply uttering certain words stopped a person from thinking logically, I wouldn't be able to post anything. For any given situation, there are modifying factors that affect how we responds and every situation isn't the same. You are intelligent, just stop trying to convince me by downplaying my difference of opinion.

I told you once that the volunteering or giving I do isn't for any personal benefit other than my drive to understand some of our behavorial aspects and gain experience.

In this topic, I focused on the underage Dominicans (since "children" seems to bother you) because they don't have access to many of the adult avenues of success. Your example of a child prostitute may be correct for THAT given situation, but not for all. When I gave money on my trips it was for a service and always a shoe shine. The other instances were when we bought them food or a small medical product.

Is it actually wrong for those kids to try to make a living when no one is probably doing it for them (the shoe shining/window wiping/selling trinkets/etc...I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE PROSTITUTION OR ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY-COME ON!!!)?

Your last paragraph seems to imply that these folks are locked in their situation. Do you truly think they can never have it or do they simply have to survive until a legal working age to attain it?

OK, I do not actually have much problem with the shoe shine boys, they do not work stoplights anyway and are not part of the math I am defending.

I am not suggesting that its great for kids to be out on the street shining shoes either, its just not the particular model I'm referring to at the moment.

Maybe we'll get to it later but there are some dynamics of shoe shine boys I am not entirely clear on, for example it appears there is a government sponsored ministry in charge of issuing the shoe shine equipment to impoverished children and I don't have any knowlege of their criteria or their philosophy. Not really sure if they are promoting child labor or providing an alternative to begging or how they go about defining the difference.

Let's be honest for a minute about the actual difficulty children face when it comes to getting fed. First of all, just because you give a street kid some chips and he eats them on the spot doesn't mean he's starving. I have a 12 year old and he will eat any amount of any flavor of Frito Lays any time, same goes for empanadas.

How many doors do you think a child would have to knock on at mealtime in order to get a meal? Especially in the DR where people actually answer the door? I am guessing the average is 3. Who in their right mind would say "no" to a child at their doorstep asking for a meal at mealtime? I only say 3 to account for people who aren't home, or who haven't finished cooking yet. So 9 doors per day per child equals 3 square meals.

Knocking on doors of strangers is NOT a good thing for children to be doing either but statitically I would say it beats the hell out of standing in traffic all day.

Now we all know there is poverty in America and western Europe as well, so why don't we have children begging at street corners? Because their parents would be tracked down and dealt with, that's why. And that's what needs to happen here as well. It's the parents that are putting the kids up to this, I think it should be obvious since preteens do not have this kind of work ethic except in the rarest cases.

 

[Simbul]

A new program

Now we all know there is poverty in America and western Europe as well, so why don't we have children begging at street corners? Because their parents would be tracked down and dealt with, that's why. And that's what needs to happen here as well. It's the parents that are putting the kids up to this, I think it should be obvious since preteens do not have this kind of work ethic except in the rarest cases.

I recently read that the government has started a task force to help get these kids off the streets, provide support, and admonish dead-beat parents that are promoting child labor or not caring for their own. Maybe this administration is finally getting it together. If they aggressively pursue this social program, it can become one of the pillars of success for the DR's future because children are the future. Poor or rich.

Good luck, DR.

 

[Criss Colon]

Excuse Me "Nals",In Your "OP" You Stated,"This Country"!

Do you mean the USA,where you actually live,or the Dominican Republic,where you want us to believe that you live???

I just want you to try telling the "Truth"(You Know,The "T" Word" to you!) for once!!!!
Cris ColonCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

Actually LIVING WORKING,Raising 4 Kids,and PAYING TAKES in the DR the last 10 plus years!

Some just "Talk The Talk",,,others actually "Walk The Walk"!!!!

 

[NALs]

Do you mean the USA,where you actually live,or the Dominican Republic,where you want us to believe that you live???

I just want you to try telling the "Truth"(You Know,The "T" Word" to you!) for once!!!!
Cris ColonCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

Actually LIVING WORKING,Raising 4 Kids,and PAYING TAKES in the DR the last 10 plus years!

Some just "Talk The Talk",,,others actually "Walk The Walk"!!!!

Check the date CCCCCCCC, check the date.

In any case, the issue remains.

Good night!

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

April 1st?

 

[NALs]

April 1st?

I was thinking more along the lines of pre and post the "meeting" near the Ozama.

Time is essential to any statement a person makes, more so a statement made prior to any new occurances later on.

CC is good, he uses reverse psychology to disipher ideas and opinions into the bin of falsehood, even if the ideas or opinions lie along the realm of truth. And to think that he created a "white lie" to, no it can't be, not attend the same meal on the town with the crowd? Afterall, if everyone already knew (as has been proclaimed) before the meeting, then most people did not went to meet NALs, they went to meet each other. This means that CC's bail out was based on not meeting NALs as opposed to the supposed "change of plans" he proposed and later admitted was nothing more than a lie as well. He should have been a politician!

Oh well, no one is free enough to be able to caste the first stone! If someone is, please, do so!

-NALs

 

[2dlight]

Okay here it goes...

I'm casting the first stone...DUCK!!!
Hey CC I like that " paying takes" paying someone "on the take", in your case, the government.

 

[Criss Colon]

"Paying TAXES!"

Do you mean the USA,where you actually live,or the Dominican Republic,where you want us to believe that you live???

I just want you to try telling the "Truth"(You Know,The "T" Word" to you!) for once!!!!
Cris ColonCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

Actually LIVING WORKING,Raising 4 Kids,and PAYING TAXES in the DR the last 10 plus years!

Some just "Talk The Talk",,,others actually "Walk The Walk"!!!!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

 

[Cleef]

Word is born - PNS (Policia National de Spelling)

CC is good, he uses reverse psychology to disipher ideas

Oh well, no one is free enough to be able to caste the first stone! If someone is, please, do so!-NALs

["disipher" - please tell me that's an inside joke]

Sorry to pile on, but uppity pricks from CT have always been my favorite to pick on. Someone who blows so much verbosity should have a better handle of the language.

If CC employs the reverse, what types are you offering?

Inverse Psychology?

Invisible Psychology?

--cleef throwing rocks in the pioneer valley